Can anyone tell me if i can tow my caravan with my car or do i have to take a towing test. I am 18 passed my test over 1year and 7 months ago. So its catogory B, not B+E. My car is a Vauxhall Astra Estate 1.6 8V club. Its weight is 1720Kg. I have a ABI Ace Diplomat at 800Kg. I know the car is able to tow the caravan but can i with my driving licence?
Car licence
- Thread starter bengibbons
- Start date
Parksy
Moderator
Hi Ben
From the Towing Law section of this website (accessible from the Home Page)
'A full (not provisional) driving licence is required to tow a caravan. From 1 January 1997, new category B (generally held as 'normal' car entitlement) vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kg Maximum Authorised Mass allowing a combined weight of up to 4.25 tonnes MAM OR a trailer (for example a tourer) over 750kg MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM. This would mean that many drivers who possess only a category B on their licence would be able to tow a caravan provided it was not heavier than their car, and that car and caravan combined, does not weigh more than 3.5 tonnes.
New drivers of outfits over these limits must take a category B + E test.'
Does the 800kg represent the MPTLM of the caravan? this is the weight that you should add to the vehicle Kerbweight to give the total combined weight of under 3.5 tonnes.
From the Towing Law section of this website (accessible from the Home Page)
'A full (not provisional) driving licence is required to tow a caravan. From 1 January 1997, new category B (generally held as 'normal' car entitlement) vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kg Maximum Authorised Mass allowing a combined weight of up to 4.25 tonnes MAM OR a trailer (for example a tourer) over 750kg MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM. This would mean that many drivers who possess only a category B on their licence would be able to tow a caravan provided it was not heavier than their car, and that car and caravan combined, does not weigh more than 3.5 tonnes.
New drivers of outfits over these limits must take a category B + E test.'
Does the 800kg represent the MPTLM of the caravan? this is the weight that you should add to the vehicle Kerbweight to give the total combined weight of under 3.5 tonnes.
Are you sure that the kerbweight of your Astra is 1720kg. Sounds awfully high to me, more like its GVW.
Ben - this is the easiest explanation I've yet found.
http://www.iwt.co.uk/brochures/ltt.pdf
You need a couple of pieces of information for the car - its kerb (unladen) weight, and its maximum allowed. You also need the maximum allowed for the caravan (ie its maximum weight fully loaded)
http://www.iwt.co.uk/brochures/ltt.pdf
You need a couple of pieces of information for the car - its kerb (unladen) weight, and its maximum allowed. You also need the maximum allowed for the caravan (ie its maximum weight fully loaded)
Hi Ben.
Basically the information here is sound if a bit tech'y for newbies.
What I would suggest is to do the following.
Establish the correct towing capacity from your local Vauxhall franchise dealer. Preferably get it in writing as well so that you can keep it safe should need to rely upon it at a later date. Also ensure they supply the Gross train weight for car + trailer.
Go to your local weigh bridge and weigh the car with a full tank of fuel. this will give you a maximum kerbside weight. On your return trip ( you get two weigh's per ticket) take your car fully loaded with all passengers and your fully loaded caravan to the weigh bridge and weigh it again. For your type of license the weight on the second visit must not be above 3500Kgs. Also you must not exceed the gross train weight supplied by Vauxhall.
Hopefully I've broken the jargon down to plain english and if you follow the steps, and can tick all the boxes, you should be fine.
All the best.
Steve L.
Basically the information here is sound if a bit tech'y for newbies.
What I would suggest is to do the following.
Establish the correct towing capacity from your local Vauxhall franchise dealer. Preferably get it in writing as well so that you can keep it safe should need to rely upon it at a later date. Also ensure they supply the Gross train weight for car + trailer.
Go to your local weigh bridge and weigh the car with a full tank of fuel. this will give you a maximum kerbside weight. On your return trip ( you get two weigh's per ticket) take your car fully loaded with all passengers and your fully loaded caravan to the weigh bridge and weigh it again. For your type of license the weight on the second visit must not be above 3500Kgs. Also you must not exceed the gross train weight supplied by Vauxhall.
Hopefully I've broken the jargon down to plain english and if you follow the steps, and can tick all the boxes, you should be fine.
All the best.
Steve L.
Steve,
If Ben takes your advice and goes to the weighbridge for the second reading and then finds himself over the 3500kg limit, how does he get the car and caravan home without breaking the law?
best regards, Martin
If Ben takes your advice and goes to the weighbridge for the second reading and then finds himself over the 3500kg limit, how does he get the car and caravan home without breaking the law?
best regards, Martin
hi all
I think lutz is right 1720kg sounds about right for the astras GVW if memory serves my sons astra mk2 est unladen was about 1275kg.
the weight quoted for the van of 800kg will be it's MIRO so the MTPLM should be around 1200kg max, given this it is unlikely the total outfit fully laden will be over 3000kg.
but the only way to be sure it to weigh it.
I think lutz is right 1720kg sounds about right for the astras GVW if memory serves my sons astra mk2 est unladen was about 1275kg.
the weight quoted for the van of 800kg will be it's MIRO so the MTPLM should be around 1200kg max, given this it is unlikely the total outfit fully laden will be over 3000kg.
but the only way to be sure it to weigh it.
Steve - I'm sure that you are incorrect. The rules on post '97 licences are all expressed in terms of the plated maximum weights of the vehicles, not the actuals.
I concur with Timothy.
The licence restriction refers to the combined Maximum Authorised Mass of both the car and trailer must not exceed 3500Kg, there is no dispensation if you do not load up to the limits.
I am concerned though relating to the clause that limits the the MAM of the trailer to no more than the kerb weight of the tow vehicle. It is possible that the the caravan's MTPLM or MAM is greater than the kerbweight of the car, in which case Ben's licence would not allow him to tow the outfit.
In these circumstances, it is critical that the true kerbweight of the car is established by a trip to the weigh bridge.
The licence restriction refers to the combined Maximum Authorised Mass of both the car and trailer must not exceed 3500Kg, there is no dispensation if you do not load up to the limits.
I am concerned though relating to the clause that limits the the MAM of the trailer to no more than the kerb weight of the tow vehicle. It is possible that the the caravan's MTPLM or MAM is greater than the kerbweight of the car, in which case Ben's licence would not allow him to tow the outfit.
In these circumstances, it is critical that the true kerbweight of the car is established by a trip to the weigh bridge.
I will try to clarify and quantify my previous thread as it seems that there are a few mis-conceptions.
1/ Martin, if Ben takes his outfit to the weighbridge and by some quirk of fate it is over weight then he has a legal ability to teturn to his place of loading for correction of the weight without prosecution. Having been in the transport industry I can honestly say that I've never heard of any police officer bringing prosecution for someone returning to their base to correct a mistake that they have taken due care to ensure that their vehicle is being correctly loaded prior to engaging in a purposefull journey.
2/ Tim & John, I seriously doubt that ben's car has a gross train weight above even 3000Kgs let alone 3500Kgs. Even my 2 Ltr Laguna estate only has 2985Kgs as it's plated gross train weight. But I do agree that his caravan weight of 800Kgs would need to be reduced to 750 Kgs to comply with catagory B.
3/ To clarify the position of prosecution for weight infringement. Ben could only face prosecution if his outfit weighed at the time of inspection by VOSA and the police, is in breach of the tow capacities of his car, or of the limitation of his driving license. Below is a copy of the info as published by the Gov direct web site.
Towing trailers or caravans with vehicles up to 3.5 tonnesIn this article reference is made to the maximum authorised mass (MAM) of vehicles and trailers. This should be taken to mean the permissible maximum weight, also known as the gross vehicle weight.
Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats
Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
For example:
a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle.
My particular caravan is 36 kgs too heavy for my car's tow capacity, but by loading it lite by 36Kgs with luggage, I can comply with the law.
Now to be quite honest Ben, if I were you, I would obtain my B + E license anyway as it will prove usefull should you want a larger caravan outfit later on. It will clarify your ability to tow legally.
Regards.
Steve L.
1/ Martin, if Ben takes his outfit to the weighbridge and by some quirk of fate it is over weight then he has a legal ability to teturn to his place of loading for correction of the weight without prosecution. Having been in the transport industry I can honestly say that I've never heard of any police officer bringing prosecution for someone returning to their base to correct a mistake that they have taken due care to ensure that their vehicle is being correctly loaded prior to engaging in a purposefull journey.
2/ Tim & John, I seriously doubt that ben's car has a gross train weight above even 3000Kgs let alone 3500Kgs. Even my 2 Ltr Laguna estate only has 2985Kgs as it's plated gross train weight. But I do agree that his caravan weight of 800Kgs would need to be reduced to 750 Kgs to comply with catagory B.
3/ To clarify the position of prosecution for weight infringement. Ben could only face prosecution if his outfit weighed at the time of inspection by VOSA and the police, is in breach of the tow capacities of his car, or of the limitation of his driving license. Below is a copy of the info as published by the Gov direct web site.
Towing trailers or caravans with vehicles up to 3.5 tonnesIn this article reference is made to the maximum authorised mass (MAM) of vehicles and trailers. This should be taken to mean the permissible maximum weight, also known as the gross vehicle weight.
Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats
Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
For example:
a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle.
My particular caravan is 36 kgs too heavy for my car's tow capacity, but by loading it lite by 36Kgs with luggage, I can comply with the law.
Now to be quite honest Ben, if I were you, I would obtain my B + E license anyway as it will prove usefull should you want a larger caravan outfit later on. It will clarify your ability to tow legally.
Regards.
Steve L.
Steve, when you say "My particular caravan is 36 kgs too heavy for my car's tow capacity, but by loading it lite by 36Kgs with luggage, I can comply with the law., then the law that you are referring to is not the one that refers to driving licence requirements, but purely the technical restrictions, as imposed by the car manufacturer. This should be made clear so that there is no confusion with driving licence requirements.
Your quite right Lutz. I hold a B&E license. So for me the 36Kg matter is pure math applied to the car's tow capacity. It realy just emphasises how attentive to detail we have to be to avoid being caught bout by the law.
However, I would still suggest that so long as ben's caravan came in at 750Kgs or less as a total weight, then he is complying with his license requirement.
This "tightrope walking" along the thin blue line of law between legal or not, does beg the question that, if we as experienced towers are having difficulty in interpriting the law. Then we can expect just the same confusion from "interplod". That is why I have changed tack somewhat and suggested Ben actually gets his B&E license in anycase. By doing this he would both gain towing training and have a license to tow bigger outfit's at a later date.
Cheers.
Steve L.
However, I would still suggest that so long as ben's caravan came in at 750Kgs or less as a total weight, then he is complying with his license requirement.
This "tightrope walking" along the thin blue line of law between legal or not, does beg the question that, if we as experienced towers are having difficulty in interpriting the law. Then we can expect just the same confusion from "interplod". That is why I have changed tack somewhat and suggested Ben actually gets his B&E license in anycase. By doing this he would both gain towing training and have a license to tow bigger outfit's at a later date.
Cheers.
Steve L.
Ben has got a much bigger margin than you suggest, Steve. Assuming that the kerbweight figure that Colin quoted (1275kg) is correct - and it sounds about right to me - then he can tow a caravan with an MTPLM of 1275kg on a category B licence. That is certainly a lot more than the 750kg that you mentioned. At the same time he would also easily satisfy the requirement that the gross train weight does not exceed 3500kg.
Nevertheless, as you say, taking a B+E test can only be of benefit.
Nevertheless, as you say, taking a B+E test can only be of benefit.
Yep thats correct Lutz, the 750 kg rules is in fact an lgv thing,although it is not made clear by the DVLA,and even certain members of that organisation seem to struggle to understand the regs.
In Basic English. Car needs to weigh more than van,total weight of car and van cannot exceed 3500 kgs.
In Basic English. Car needs to weigh more than van,total weight of car and van cannot exceed 3500 kgs.
It not quite as easy as that. When you say "Car needs to weigh more than van", then the weight of the car that is referred to is the kerbweight and weight of the caravan its MTPLM. And where you say "total weight of car and van cannot exceed 3500 kgs", then the total weight referred to is the permissible maximum, not the actual.
sorry should have said, again in plain English,both vehicles MAM. maximum authorized mass cannot exceed 3500kg.
Hello Steve,
I think you are probably right regarding the likely hood of prosecution for an over loaded vehicle.
I am not sure why you started to relate my response to a limit of GTW 3000Kg or to the trailer MTPLM of 800Kg. I mentioned neither value! The trailer weight does not have to be reduced to 750Kg for compliance with cat B, only if the trailer is unbraked does the 750 MAM limit apply.
We know that Ben only has the a Cat B licence he told us, which is why I did refer to the weight of the caravan, because there is some confusion about the kerbweight of the car - which is not known. The figure we were given of 1720Kg may have been the cars MAM or even its GTW, in which case its Kbw could be substantially lower and even possibly below 800Kg, in which case the outfit would not comply with Bens Driving Licence limits.
And Lutz is also right, In terms of the driving licence restrictions, its not the actual weight of an outfit, it is the permitted maximum weights or MAM that have to be considered. So Ben could not use your argument of saying that the caravan weighs less than the car, but its MAM is greater.
I think it could be highly misleading to explain how you manage to comply with the law for your outfit, because you did not make it clear that you have the B+E category licence. The B+E limits are applied very differently to cat B limits, and your technique would be inadmissible for Ben.
With a little research I have found that a "Vauxhall Astra Estate (98-04) 1.6i Envoy 5d" has a manufactures Kbw of 1160Kg and a Max towed weight limit of 1050Kg. assuming this is either the same or very close to Ben's car his proposed caravan of MTPLM 800Kg is well within the capability of the car and also of his Driving licence.
Ben - Happy Towing.
I think you are probably right regarding the likely hood of prosecution for an over loaded vehicle.
I am not sure why you started to relate my response to a limit of GTW 3000Kg or to the trailer MTPLM of 800Kg. I mentioned neither value! The trailer weight does not have to be reduced to 750Kg for compliance with cat B, only if the trailer is unbraked does the 750 MAM limit apply.
We know that Ben only has the a Cat B licence he told us, which is why I did refer to the weight of the caravan, because there is some confusion about the kerbweight of the car - which is not known. The figure we were given of 1720Kg may have been the cars MAM or even its GTW, in which case its Kbw could be substantially lower and even possibly below 800Kg, in which case the outfit would not comply with Bens Driving Licence limits.
And Lutz is also right, In terms of the driving licence restrictions, its not the actual weight of an outfit, it is the permitted maximum weights or MAM that have to be considered. So Ben could not use your argument of saying that the caravan weighs less than the car, but its MAM is greater.
I think it could be highly misleading to explain how you manage to comply with the law for your outfit, because you did not make it clear that you have the B+E category licence. The B+E limits are applied very differently to cat B limits, and your technique would be inadmissible for Ben.
With a little research I have found that a "Vauxhall Astra Estate (98-04) 1.6i Envoy 5d" has a manufactures Kbw of 1160Kg and a Max towed weight limit of 1050Kg. assuming this is either the same or very close to Ben's car his proposed caravan of MTPLM 800Kg is well within the capability of the car and also of his Driving licence.
Ben - Happy Towing.
Hello Again Ben
I have found a closer match to your car "Vauxhall Astra Estate (98-04) 1.6i Club 5d" the figures are slightly different,
Manufacturers Kbw of 1180Kg and a max towing limit of 1000Kg. These are still give you the ability to tow your 800Kg caravan.
I have found a closer match to your car "Vauxhall Astra Estate (98-04) 1.6i Club 5d" the figures are slightly different,
Manufacturers Kbw of 1180Kg and a max towing limit of 1000Kg. These are still give you the ability to tow your 800Kg caravan.
I'm still trying to find out the Unladen (kerb) weight of my astra 1.6 5door hatch 02.
I know there are two weights on the car 1660kgs and 2750kgs.
Had it in today for MOT guys there tried to tell me 1660 was unladen, I know this was wrong because hubbies mondeo is 1595 kerb!!
As vauxhall state I have to work out my weights they don't actually tell me how.
There you go guys show me the maths hee hee. We could make a competition of it, and see who gets there first.
I know there are two weights on the car 1660kgs and 2750kgs.
Had it in today for MOT guys there tried to tell me 1660 was unladen, I know this was wrong because hubbies mondeo is 1595 kerb!!
As vauxhall state I have to work out my weights they don't actually tell me how.
There you go guys show me the maths hee hee. We could make a competition of it, and see who gets there first.
Unless the kerbweight is shown in your V5c vehicle registration document (it should be under Section 4, Item G of the logbook), the only way of finding out the kerbweight accurately is to put the car on a weighbridge and weigh it. If you are not too concerned about its accuracy, you can use figures published in the owner's handbook, brochures, website databases, etc. In that case, the figure that Colin quoted (1275kg), sounds realistic.
Certainly the 1660kg is the GVW, not the kerbweight and 2750kg the gross train weight. This would allow you to tow 1090kg legally as the kerbweight will definitely be more than that.
Certainly the 1660kg is the GVW, not the kerbweight and 2750kg the gross train weight. This would allow you to tow 1090kg legally as the kerbweight will definitely be more than that.
hi all
while all the recomedations and advice above is all good and reasonable without the actual relevent data I cannot see how anyone could give a definitive answer to ben.
it would have helped if ben had come back with better details of the preposed outfit ie exact year and model of car and exact year and model and size of the van he wished to tow so the data could be checked against the data base.
I for one have tried to find a ace diplomat of any size that has a MTPLM of only 800kg and cannot find one anywhere, I assume therefore that the 800kg quoted is the MIRO and not the MTPLM that could be anything from 1100kg to 1350 kg depending on user payload given that also no escort model was ever produced with a kerb weight of 1720kg any calculations made would at best be pure speculation.
colin
while all the recomedations and advice above is all good and reasonable without the actual relevent data I cannot see how anyone could give a definitive answer to ben.
it would have helped if ben had come back with better details of the preposed outfit ie exact year and model of car and exact year and model and size of the van he wished to tow so the data could be checked against the data base.
I for one have tried to find a ace diplomat of any size that has a MTPLM of only 800kg and cannot find one anywhere, I assume therefore that the 800kg quoted is the MIRO and not the MTPLM that could be anything from 1100kg to 1350 kg depending on user payload given that also no escort model was ever produced with a kerb weight of 1720kg any calculations made would at best be pure speculation.
colin
Hello Colin,
I agree that none of us can give definitive yes or no, to Ben's question. However based on the information we have been given by Ben, and assuming it to be correct, then the outcomes are typical and should be considered as general information.
It is always essential for the driver to establish the correct figures for themselves.
I agree that none of us can give definitive yes or no, to Ben's question. However based on the information we have been given by Ben, and assuming it to be correct, then the outcomes are typical and should be considered as general information.
It is always essential for the driver to establish the correct figures for themselves.
Hi guys.
Well, I've got the weights of my Astra, same as bens but just not an estate.
Unladed 1105kgs more with a tow bar but not by much.
GVW 1660kgs
MAM 2750kgs.
GTW Won't be much more can't be bothered to work it out.
I know someone will work it out for me pretty please.....
Well, I've got the weights of my Astra, same as bens but just not an estate.
Unladed 1105kgs more with a tow bar but not by much.
GVW 1660kgs
MAM 2750kgs.
GTW Won't be much more can't be bothered to work it out.
I know someone will work it out for me pretty please.....
What you have quoted as MAM can't be correct. This figure must be the GTW, in which case you may tow 1090kg max. legally.
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