We have a Nissan Qashqai. Thinking of upgrading to a van MTPLM 1410kgs. Nissan have set towing limit of 1400kgs. If we were to purchase the van could we load it up and weigh it on a weighbridge and get a print out to keep in the car (making sure we keep within the 1400kg) Would this be legal? Hope you understand what I am asking.
Car manufacturers permissible towing limit
- Thread starter scottiemad
- Start date
Not sure.
This is a bit of a grey area.
It seems some police go on actual weighs, others go on plated weights.
You are very close to your limits, it really is not a good idea.
This is a bit of a grey area.
It seems some police go on actual weighs, others go on plated weights.
You are very close to your limits, it really is not a good idea.
Hi Scottiedottie,
I understand Jennifer's point, but the regulations are quite descriptive, and any uncertainty should be resolved quite easily by referring to the necessary regulations and actual vehicle weights.
However, it all depends on what basis an offence is raised; for example
'Overloading' is measurable and has to be verified so the authorities would have to weigh the outfit to prove it. Whilst overloading is dangerous and thus illegal, you can have what is deemed a dangerous load or vehicle whilst it is still well within weight limits. This is less easy to define, and while weight may form part of the basis of a charge it is not the only criteria that can be used if it is within limits.
I understand Jennifer's point, but the regulations are quite descriptive, and any uncertainty should be resolved quite easily by referring to the necessary regulations and actual vehicle weights.
However, it all depends on what basis an offence is raised; for example
'Overloading' is measurable and has to be verified so the authorities would have to weigh the outfit to prove it. Whilst overloading is dangerous and thus illegal, you can have what is deemed a dangerous load or vehicle whilst it is still well within weight limits. This is less easy to define, and while weight may form part of the basis of a charge it is not the only criteria that can be used if it is within limits.
I would suspect the bottom line would occur if you had an accident, even if it was not your fault. If your outfit was found to exceed either manufacturer's limits, then your insurance will not pay out, and if you were the cause, even indirectly, may allow the other Party to sue for full damages against you.
It is only probably a 1 in 100 chance, but do you wish to take that chance?
It is only probably a 1 in 100 chance, but do you wish to take that chance?
Hi,
Your insurers cannot refuse to pay out a 3rd Party claim because of the way your vehicle is loaded. It says so in the RTA. But they are allowed to come back and sue you for their losses.
Any damage to your vehicle is a different matter, and if you don't like their decision its a Civil matter.
602
Your insurers cannot refuse to pay out a 3rd Party claim because of the way your vehicle is loaded. It says so in the RTA. But they are allowed to come back and sue you for their losses.
Any damage to your vehicle is a different matter, and if you don't like their decision its a Civil matter.
602
Hi Scottie.
I tow a simlar outfit, my van is 36Kgs over the max tow capacity of the car.
Having towed for over 32 years and driven all types of vehicle from a moped to an articulated lorry, I can speak from first hand experience.
First of all, you are quite right to load your unit as if you were going on holiday and check it at a local weigh bridge, but that ticket is only valid while the outfit is sat on the bridge. After driving off you are then at your own risk of being stopped and checked by VOSA, who are the vehicle inspectorate tasked with testing any vehicle for roadworthyness.
However, in the event of you being caught overweight it is a police officer who will issue the intent of prosecution notice.
I have been throught the whole process in my time as a delivery driver of our own vehicle. Here's the tail.
I was driving a 3500Kg truck towing a trailer of 2000Kgs capacity, which was all legal and above board. But I had not got a tackograph fitted. o when I got stopped an imeadiate prohibition notice was issued by the police, preventing me from driving the truck anywhere. I had to get my dad to bring my car out to me to tow the trailer, before I was allowed to go on my way. Within two days of that I got a tachograph fitted and avoided prosecution as we had acted respossibly.
VOSA and the police are not tirants and you do get good guys and jobs worths in all proffessions. They certainly won't be chasing you for 10Kgs as that is negligable and still within the 5% over weight allowance.
All I would advise is to load correctly and as you are already aware of the weight issue, just drive steady and learn the capability of the nissan.
ATB Steve L.
I tow a simlar outfit, my van is 36Kgs over the max tow capacity of the car.
Having towed for over 32 years and driven all types of vehicle from a moped to an articulated lorry, I can speak from first hand experience.
First of all, you are quite right to load your unit as if you were going on holiday and check it at a local weigh bridge, but that ticket is only valid while the outfit is sat on the bridge. After driving off you are then at your own risk of being stopped and checked by VOSA, who are the vehicle inspectorate tasked with testing any vehicle for roadworthyness.
However, in the event of you being caught overweight it is a police officer who will issue the intent of prosecution notice.
I have been throught the whole process in my time as a delivery driver of our own vehicle. Here's the tail.
I was driving a 3500Kg truck towing a trailer of 2000Kgs capacity, which was all legal and above board. But I had not got a tackograph fitted. o when I got stopped an imeadiate prohibition notice was issued by the police, preventing me from driving the truck anywhere. I had to get my dad to bring my car out to me to tow the trailer, before I was allowed to go on my way. Within two days of that I got a tachograph fitted and avoided prosecution as we had acted respossibly.
VOSA and the police are not tirants and you do get good guys and jobs worths in all proffessions. They certainly won't be chasing you for 10Kgs as that is negligable and still within the 5% over weight allowance.
All I would advise is to load correctly and as you are already aware of the weight issue, just drive steady and learn the capability of the nissan.
ATB Steve L.
Hi Scottie.
I tow a simlar outfit, my van is 36Kgs over the max tow capacity of the car.
Having towed for over 32 years and driven all types of vehicle from a moped to an articulated lorry, I can speak from first hand experience.
First of all, you are quite right to load your unit as if you were going on holiday and check it at a local weigh bridge, but that ticket is only valid while the outfit is sat on the bridge. After driving off you are then at your own risk of being stopped and checked by VOSA, who are the vehicle inspectorate tasked with testing any vehicle for roadworthyness.
However, in the event of you being caught overweight it is a police officer who will issue the intent of prosecution notice.
I have been throught the whole process in my time as a delivery driver of our own vehicle. Here's the tail.
I was driving a 3500Kg truck towing a trailer of 2000Kgs capacity, which was all legal and above board. But I had not got a tackograph fitted. o when I got stopped an imeadiate prohibition notice was issued by the police, preventing me from driving the truck anywhere. I had to get my dad to bring my car out to me to tow the trailer, before I was allowed to go on my way. Within two days of that I got a tachograph fitted and avoided prosecution as we had acted respossibly.
VOSA and the police are not tirants and you do get good guys and jobs worths in all proffessions. They certainly won't be chasing you for 10Kgs as that is negligable and still within the 5% over weight allowance.
All I would advise is to load correctly and as you are already aware of the weight issue, just drive steady and learn the capability of the nissan.
ATB Steve L.
I tow a simlar outfit, my van is 36Kgs over the max tow capacity of the car.
Having towed for over 32 years and driven all types of vehicle from a moped to an articulated lorry, I can speak from first hand experience.
First of all, you are quite right to load your unit as if you were going on holiday and check it at a local weigh bridge, but that ticket is only valid while the outfit is sat on the bridge. After driving off you are then at your own risk of being stopped and checked by VOSA, who are the vehicle inspectorate tasked with testing any vehicle for roadworthyness.
However, in the event of you being caught overweight it is a police officer who will issue the intent of prosecution notice.
I have been throught the whole process in my time as a delivery driver of our own vehicle. Here's the tail.
I was driving a 3500Kg truck towing a trailer of 2000Kgs capacity, which was all legal and above board. But I had not got a tackograph fitted. o when I got stopped an imeadiate prohibition notice was issued by the police, preventing me from driving the truck anywhere. I had to get my dad to bring my car out to me to tow the trailer, before I was allowed to go on my way. Within two days of that I got a tachograph fitted and avoided prosecution as we had acted respossibly.
VOSA and the police are not tirants and you do get good guys and jobs worths in all proffessions. They certainly won't be chasing you for 10Kgs as that is negligable and still within the 5% over weight allowance.
All I would advise is to load correctly and as you are already aware of the weight issue, just drive steady and learn the capability of the nissan.
ATB Steve L.
The simple answer to the OP's question is yes, the outfit is legal if you keep the caravan at or below 1400kg.
To be absolutely accurate, you would still be legal if the caravan in total weighs 1400kg (the car manufacturer's towload limit) plus the noseweight.
While I understand where all the contributors are coming from, I still feel that if you are knowingly breaking a manufacturer's directive, then you are running a risk. Yes, 99% of the time you may be less than the weight, but on the 1% you are over just because you bought that extra case of wine to bring home, then who knows. Insurance Companies would love any excuse to not pay out. I personally feel it is not worth it. Plus although Nissan have stated 1400 kgs as their maximum weight, by running at the maximum, or even slightly over you may be adding extra wear to the vehicle. I know others will state that if that is the designated weight then it should be fine, but for how long?
Hello Scotch lad,
If Scottiedottie does what he says and keeps the caravan at or below 1400Kg, he is not breaking any manufactures directives. The manufacture states the trailer must not weigh more than thier limit, they don't say you cannot tow a trailer where its MTPLM exceeds the cars limit.
I do understand your point about the extra weights, but the same argument could be levelled at a caravan with a 1400Kg dead MTPLM.
It's all down to the discipline of the driver to ensure they do not exceed loading margins etc.
If Scottiedottie does what he says and keeps the caravan at or below 1400Kg, he is not breaking any manufactures directives. The manufacture states the trailer must not weigh more than thier limit, they don't say you cannot tow a trailer where its MTPLM exceeds the cars limit.
I do understand your point about the extra weights, but the same argument could be levelled at a caravan with a 1400Kg dead MTPLM.
It's all down to the discipline of the driver to ensure they do not exceed loading margins etc.
Yes, thanks. The safari was a dream and, of course, we were really glad to see our son, as well.
While everything you say is 'technically' correct, I still feel that this would be a grey area that an insurance company would exploit for all it is worth. 10 kg is easily a trolley load of shopping that you buy on the way to the site. Suppose something did go wrong, and especially if someone else or some other outfit is hurt or damaged by you. Then I suspect the first thing the Company would do is check what outfit you have and on finding this discrepancy, would then ask you to prove you were not over the limit. Very difficult I would suspect. Nobody carries a certified weighbridge in their pocket.
Bluntly, life is too short to start taking these sorts of risks. Why does Scottiedottie not just get a van well inside his towing limits, as most of us do, and sleep soundly at night.
Bluntly, life is too short to start taking these sorts of risks. Why does Scottiedottie not just get a van well inside his towing limits, as most of us do, and sleep soundly at night.
Hi scotch lad,
If an insurance company tried that on, then as they are accusing you of breaking the law, they must prove it, and weigh it.
If they then refused a payout simply on the suspicion of being over weight, I think the customer would have a very good case ito challenge the company.
If an insurance company tried that on, then as they are accusing you of breaking the law, they must prove it, and weigh it.
If they then refused a payout simply on the suspicion of being over weight, I think the customer would have a very good case ito challenge the company.
Hi,
Would anybody like to confirn that the following passage from RTA 1998 says what I think it says?
148.-(1) Where a certificate of insurance or certificate of security has been delivered under section 147 of this Act to the person by whom a policy has been effected or to whom a security has been given, so much of the policy or security as purports to restrict-
(a) the insurance of the persons insured by the policy, or
(b) the operation of the security,
(as the case may be) by reference to any of the matters mentioned in subsection (2) below shall, as respects such liabilities as are required to be covered by a policy under section 145 of this Act, be of no effect.
(2) Those matters are-
(a) the age or physical or mental condition of persons driving the vehicle,
(b) the condition of the vehicle,
(c) the number of persons that the vehicle carries,
(d) the weight or physical characteristics of the goods that the vehicle carries,
(e) the time at which or the areas within which the vehicle is used,
(f) the horsepower or cylinder capacity or value of the vehicle,
(g) the carrying on the vehicle of any particular apparatus, or
(h) the carrying on the vehicle of any particular means of identification other than any means of identification required to be carried by or under the [1971 c. 10.] Vehicles (Excise) Act 1971.
(3) Nothing in subsection (1) above requires an insurer or the giver of a security to pay any sum in respect of the liability of any person otherwise than in or towards the discharge of that liability.
(4) Any sum paid by an insurer or the giver of a security in or towards the discharge of any liability of any person which is covered by the policy or security by virtue only of subsection (1) above is recoverable by the insurer or giver of the security from that person.
(5) A condition in a policy or security issued or given for the purposes of this Part of this Act providing-
(a) that no liability shall arise under the policy or security, or
(b) that any liability so arising shall cease,
in the event of some specified thing being done or omitted to be done after the happening of the event giving rise to a claim under the policy or security, shall be of no effect in connection with such liabilities as are required to be covered by a policy under section 145 of this Act.
(6) Nothing in subsection (5) above shall be taken to render void any provision in a policy or security requiring the person insured or secured to pay to the insurer or the giver of the security any sums which the latter may have become liable to pay under the policy or security and which have been applied to the satisfaction of the claims of third parties.
(7) Notwithstanding anything in any enactment, a person issuing a policy of insurance under section 145 of this Act shall be liable to indemnify the persons or classes of persons specified in the policy in respect of any liability which the policy purports to cover in the case of those persons or classes of persons.
602
Would anybody like to confirn that the following passage from RTA 1998 says what I think it says?
148.-(1) Where a certificate of insurance or certificate of security has been delivered under section 147 of this Act to the person by whom a policy has been effected or to whom a security has been given, so much of the policy or security as purports to restrict-
(a) the insurance of the persons insured by the policy, or
(b) the operation of the security,
(as the case may be) by reference to any of the matters mentioned in subsection (2) below shall, as respects such liabilities as are required to be covered by a policy under section 145 of this Act, be of no effect.
(2) Those matters are-
(a) the age or physical or mental condition of persons driving the vehicle,
(b) the condition of the vehicle,
(c) the number of persons that the vehicle carries,
(d) the weight or physical characteristics of the goods that the vehicle carries,
(e) the time at which or the areas within which the vehicle is used,
(f) the horsepower or cylinder capacity or value of the vehicle,
(g) the carrying on the vehicle of any particular apparatus, or
(h) the carrying on the vehicle of any particular means of identification other than any means of identification required to be carried by or under the [1971 c. 10.] Vehicles (Excise) Act 1971.
(3) Nothing in subsection (1) above requires an insurer or the giver of a security to pay any sum in respect of the liability of any person otherwise than in or towards the discharge of that liability.
(4) Any sum paid by an insurer or the giver of a security in or towards the discharge of any liability of any person which is covered by the policy or security by virtue only of subsection (1) above is recoverable by the insurer or giver of the security from that person.
(5) A condition in a policy or security issued or given for the purposes of this Part of this Act providing-
(a) that no liability shall arise under the policy or security, or
(b) that any liability so arising shall cease,
in the event of some specified thing being done or omitted to be done after the happening of the event giving rise to a claim under the policy or security, shall be of no effect in connection with such liabilities as are required to be covered by a policy under section 145 of this Act.
(6) Nothing in subsection (5) above shall be taken to render void any provision in a policy or security requiring the person insured or secured to pay to the insurer or the giver of the security any sums which the latter may have become liable to pay under the policy or security and which have been applied to the satisfaction of the claims of third parties.
(7) Notwithstanding anything in any enactment, a person issuing a policy of insurance under section 145 of this Act shall be liable to indemnify the persons or classes of persons specified in the policy in respect of any liability which the policy purports to cover in the case of those persons or classes of persons.
602
If your nose weight is 75kg then with the van loaded to its MTPLM then you are only actually towing 1335kg as the 75kg is acting downwards on the towbar and importantly has to be allowed for in the car GVW.
That means the caravan will hits its limit before the car's towing weight, so you would be just as likely to overload the caravan if you had a car with 1600kg tow weight.
That means the caravan will hits its limit before the car's towing weight, so you would be just as likely to overload the caravan if you had a car with 1600kg tow weight.
Hi 602,
I assume you are referring to your post of 11 Aug 2009 06:35
It is difficult to be specific without having the full text and all the other regulations the document refers to, but in essence:
Sections 6 suggest that an insurance company has the right to seek to recover certain monies that fall due.
What is not clear from the text you supply is if it just refers to any unpaid portion of the premium for the policy, or whether it includes any payments made to or on behalf of the 'insured' in respect of a claim. And under what circumstances such a claw-back may be instigated.
What section six clearly indicates is that an insurance company cannot evade liability where the driver has complied with all road regulations, and the terms of the insurance policy. Under these conditions Para 5 cannot be invoked in respect of claims paid out.
I assume you are referring to your post of 11 Aug 2009 06:35
It is difficult to be specific without having the full text and all the other regulations the document refers to, but in essence:
Sections 6 suggest that an insurance company has the right to seek to recover certain monies that fall due.
What is not clear from the text you supply is if it just refers to any unpaid portion of the premium for the policy, or whether it includes any payments made to or on behalf of the 'insured' in respect of a claim. And under what circumstances such a claw-back may be instigated.
What section six clearly indicates is that an insurance company cannot evade liability where the driver has complied with all road regulations, and the terms of the insurance policy. Under these conditions Para 5 cannot be invoked in respect of claims paid out.
Hi,
I read it to say that the insurer's cannot avoid paying out, even if the vehicle is overladen and in poor mechanical state, BUT, they CAN sue the policy holder to recover the money they have paid out.
602
I read it to say that the insurer's cannot avoid paying out, even if the vehicle is overladen and in poor mechanical state, BUT, they CAN sue the policy holder to recover the money they have paid out.
602
Hi,
I read it to say that the insurer's cannot avoid paying out, even if the vehicle is overladen and in poor mechanical state, BUT, they CAN sue the policy holder to recover the money they have paid out.
602
I read it to say that the insurer's cannot avoid paying out, even if the vehicle is overladen and in poor mechanical state, BUT, they CAN sue the policy holder to recover the money they have paid out.
602
I had a quick look through my Policy document (the big one we never normally read). It states that if I have misrepresented, or left out any relevant information then the Policy can be declared null and void. Also if towing a caravan I must meet all relevant laws of the country I am in. Whether exceeding deliberately a manufacturer's towing limit comes into any of that, is a grey area.
As I stated previously I just do not feel it is worth the hassle.
As I stated previously I just do not feel it is worth the hassle.
Now then let's cut the waffle and concentrate on the legalities.
First of all, as long as Scottie keeps the van to 1400kgs dead weight (ie van weighed solo on a weigh bridge), then it is legal.
Secondly, the car is not loaded above it's maximum weight. Then that is legal.
Thirdly, Keep the nose weight to the lesser of either the van or the tow bar manufacturer. Also take this into account as the loading on the car as mentioned in point two above. Having accomplished that, the outfit is still legal.
Forth, drive the car and caravan onto the weighbridge with a full tank of fuel and all occupants and the caravan loaded to 1400 Kgs. Now as long as the weight of that is not above the total gross train weight for the quashqai, you have a legally compliant outfit on the road.
Insurance companies can knick and screem all they like but they can't fault you for 10Kgs over weight when the accuracey of weight for prosecution purposes is upto +5% which is a massive 70KGS !!
I have delt with insurance companies neumerous times on the finer technicalities of claims as an indipendant engineer and I've seen more U turns than Gordon Brown, when a client mentions litigation for undue distress caused by argueing technicalities, when the law clearly supports the situation, as in this particular senario.
So load carefully and pay attention to detail of the vehicle weights especially the nose weight as that will determine your comfort of towing. Finally just take your time and build confidence and experience before getting too ambitious with speed.
After all your on a relaxing holiday and not working to a minit managed parcel run, leave that to the boys at ups and tnt etc.
Caravanning is all about fun and for me that starts from loading to driving and setting up on site. The only time I get fed up is when going home.
ATB Steve L.
First of all, as long as Scottie keeps the van to 1400kgs dead weight (ie van weighed solo on a weigh bridge), then it is legal.
Secondly, the car is not loaded above it's maximum weight. Then that is legal.
Thirdly, Keep the nose weight to the lesser of either the van or the tow bar manufacturer. Also take this into account as the loading on the car as mentioned in point two above. Having accomplished that, the outfit is still legal.
Forth, drive the car and caravan onto the weighbridge with a full tank of fuel and all occupants and the caravan loaded to 1400 Kgs. Now as long as the weight of that is not above the total gross train weight for the quashqai, you have a legally compliant outfit on the road.
Insurance companies can knick and screem all they like but they can't fault you for 10Kgs over weight when the accuracey of weight for prosecution purposes is upto +5% which is a massive 70KGS !!
I have delt with insurance companies neumerous times on the finer technicalities of claims as an indipendant engineer and I've seen more U turns than Gordon Brown, when a client mentions litigation for undue distress caused by argueing technicalities, when the law clearly supports the situation, as in this particular senario.
So load carefully and pay attention to detail of the vehicle weights especially the nose weight as that will determine your comfort of towing. Finally just take your time and build confidence and experience before getting too ambitious with speed.
After all your on a relaxing holiday and not working to a minit managed parcel run, leave that to the boys at ups and tnt etc.
Caravanning is all about fun and for me that starts from loading to driving and setting up on site. The only time I get fed up is when going home.
ATB Steve L.
Hello Mick,
There is simply no need, as long as the actual trailer weight is less than the stipulated limit.
There is simply no need, as long as the actual trailer weight is less than the stipulated limit.
From Practical caravan website's own towing law page:
VERTICAL STATIC LOAD/NOSE LOAD
The weight imposed on the towball or eye by the trailer coupling.
* NB: For the purposes of determining the gross vehicle weight of the towing vehicle, the noseweight of the caravan is included as part of the car's payload. Consequently, the gross train weight is really the sum of the gross vehicle weight including the noseweight plus the axle weight of the caravan, not its total weight. If the noseweight is not included in the vehicle weight but in the weight of the caravan, there is a danger of overloading the car.
As the noseweight is part of the car's payload then the tow weight will be less than 1400kg (as the noseweight must legally be 4%) so there is no need to replate the caravan OR not load it to the MPTLM.
VERTICAL STATIC LOAD/NOSE LOAD
The weight imposed on the towball or eye by the trailer coupling.
* NB: For the purposes of determining the gross vehicle weight of the towing vehicle, the noseweight of the caravan is included as part of the car's payload. Consequently, the gross train weight is really the sum of the gross vehicle weight including the noseweight plus the axle weight of the caravan, not its total weight. If the noseweight is not included in the vehicle weight but in the weight of the caravan, there is a danger of overloading the car.
As the noseweight is part of the car's payload then the tow weight will be less than 1400kg (as the noseweight must legally be 4%) so there is no need to replate the caravan OR not load it to the MPTLM.
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
-
-
12v supply to fridge fault after testing voltage !! Help please
- Started by Joggerdude
- Replies: 4
-
-
-
Facebook
Twitter