Cost of fuel

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Nov 6, 2005
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Who said that supermarket fuel damages the engine? I suggested that branded fuels may clean the engine better than a supermarket fuel due to additive added.
They all have to meet the relevant standard, EN228 for petrol and EN590 for diesel, which both have minimum requirements for cleaners and additives and all engines in vehicles sold in EU/UK are designed to work with this minimum standard.

Has any of the fuel companies ever published details of their additive packages, not just the general data in safety sheets?

I'd suggest that it's an urban myth that big brand fuel has more or better additives than supermarket fuel - all the big brand advertising refers to the presence of cleaners and additives but with no reference to how much more than the statutory minimum is present nor any benefit of exceeding the minimum.
 
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Who said that supermarket fuel damages the engine? I suggested that branded fuels may clean the engine better than a supermarket fuel due to additive added.
I said earlier my Sorento ten years ago suffered an EGRV failure. The Kia dealer blamed it on me using Tesco diesel. I continue using Asda , Tesco etc and two cars on have had no problems
 
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They all have to meet the relevant standard, EN228 for petrol and EN590 for diesel, which both have minimum requirements for cleaners and additives and all engines in vehicles sold in EU/UK are designed to work with this minimum standard.

Has any of the fuel companies ever published details of their additive packages, not just the general data in safety sheets?

I'd suggest that it's an urban myth that big brand fuel has more or better additives than supermarket fuel - all the big brand advertising refers to the presence of cleaners and additives but with no reference to how much more than the statutory minimum is present nor any benefit of exceeding the minimum.
The premium fuels are different though.
 
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I said earlier my Sorento ten years ago suffered an EGRV failure. The Kia dealer blamed it on me using Tesco diesel. I continue using Asda , Tesco etc and two cars on have had no problems
My Pajero and Sorento had an EGR failure but it was not an uncommon fault, so on both I purchased a blanking kit which stops it happening. Never had any emissions problems on MOT.
 
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The premium fuels are different though.
Some supermarkets sell premium fuel.

The higher octane in premium petrol allows some engines to produce more power, this increase may translate to better economy if the driver is very disciplined - premium petrol may, or may not, have more/better cleaners/additives but no-one outside the fuel chemists know as the details aren't published.

The higher cetane in premium diesel doesn't have the same effect as higher octane in petrol engines and the lack of details on cleaners/additives also applies.
 
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They all have to meet the relevant standard, EN228 for petrol and EN590 for diesel, which both have minimum requirements for cleaners and additives and all engines in vehicles sold in EU/UK are designed to work with this minimum standard.

Has any of the fuel companies ever published details of their additive packages, not just the general data in safety sheets?

I'd suggest that it's an urban myth that big brand fuel has more or better additives than supermarket fuel - all the big brand advertising refers to the presence of cleaners and additives but with no reference to how much more than the statutory minimum is present nor any benefit of exceeding the minimum.
In answer to your post this is from Rob Jax a former chemical engineer.

This topic reappears every so often, but in essence I'll quote my answer about diesel fuel - and petrol is pretty much the same story:

As the UK Representative to CEN WG9 (European standards committee for all motor vehicle fuels) all pump fuel in Europe is produced to meet the relevant EN standard - which you will see written on the pump body.
The major difference between the supermarket fuels and the branded fuels is the exact nature of the additive pack added to the fuel when it leaves the refinery - common rail pump lubricants, injector cleaners, etc.
Synthesised Diesel
The exception to this is the new "synthesised" diesel fuels, such as BP Ultimate (actually researched by Aral in Germany), Shell V-Power (may be called something else in the UK), and Total Excellium. These fuels are manufactured in the refinery by joining simple petroleum hydrocarbons into an exact diesel fuel - you'll need some experience of university level Chemistry to follow what they do - so just accept that they are better - higher cetane rating, better additive pack, etc.
Normal Diesel
This is a straight distillation fraction from crude oil, produced by the nearest refinery to the fuel depot - so for instance, diesel refined by Shell may be sold by any of the other retailers close to that Shell refinery. The major difference is the additive pack - which is brand specific - and any specification difference imposed on the refinery by the other retailers - and the addition of bio-diesel.
Bio-diesel
Another one of our EN committees, pump bio-diesel is a blend of normal refinery diesel (95%) and (5%) of pure bio-diesel. This is an EN standard and all EU countries will be (or are) selling this bio-diesel as a direct replacement for normal diesel. All the car manufacturers have accepted this 95:5 blended fuel, and we are working on specifications for a 90:10 blend.
Pure bio-diesel is manufactured by mixing and heating vegetable oil with methanol (methyl alcohol) and sodium hydroxide (caustic soda). This splits the vegetable oil into glycerine and fatty acids, which immediately reacts with the methanol to form a "fatty acid methyl ester" or FAME (bio-diesel).
FAME is perfectly fine as a diesel fuel, it has very good lubricating effects - and replaces the lubricant additive in a normal diesel fuel - except that it is not as stable as normal diesel - it tends to go "sour" or "rancid", which is why the car manufacturers don't like you to run a car on pure bio-diesel. Not a problem as a 95:5 blend.
Vegetable Oil
Reasonably OK for an old (pre 1995) diesel engined car - except that the car won't start on cold vegetable oil, but once the engine is running it's OK.
Other problems are that vegetable oil quickly turns in a gummy glop (like the linseed oil that artists use) and the car's fuel system and that the engine needs a lot more maintenance - blocked injectors, gummy residue in pumps and cylinders, etc.
After market additives
After market products like Millers improve the cetane rating of standard diesel, but only when the engine is cold - interestingly it doesn't help a hot engine - so cold starting is usually quieter but no difference to a hot engine - and Millers does provide good, additional pump lubricity.

Self Tuning Engine Computer
So, if your diesel engined car "self tunes" then try Shell V-Power, BP Ultimate, Total Excellium - I see between 3% and 5% improvement in fuel consumption. My Mercedes C270 returned 52.8 mpg driving from Rotterdam to Wendover yesterday - on Dutch Shell V-Power - 320 miles at speeds of around 60, 70 and 80 mph depending on the country / road speed limit - using the electronic speed limiter. If not, stick with the regular diesel fuel, and add Redex or Millers at the recommended dosage level - adding more won't improve the performance. And don't be dismissive of supermarket fuel, it can and often is identical to branded fuel.
And if you add Redex or Millers or switch to a branded fuel, then any change to the cleanliness of the injectors won't show itself for quite a few hundred miles, but pump lubrication and maybe a higher cetane rating will show an effect much sooner - depends how much old fuel was in the tank and fuel lines - and how much the old fuel dilutes the action of the new fuel.
So is there a difference between supermarket and branded fuel ? - there can be - but often there isn't.
How can you tell if one fuel is better than another?
To compare the fuel consumption, you need to exactly reproduce two journeys - exactly the same speed, exactly the same acceleration and braking, and under identical conditions:
Atmospheric Pressure
A one percent change in air pressure has an identical effect on power and torque - so driving on days with high pressure makes the engine generate more power
Temperature
Driving on hotter days reduces engine power.
Humidity and Rain
Driving on days when it is humid or raining significantly improves engine power - water injection is used in truck racing and sucking in damp air has a similar effect in increasing power.
These produce percentage level effects on mpg - making it difficult for the driver to make comparisons. Driving on a cold, damp day may see an improvement of 3% or more compared to a hot, dry day.
Even more important are the effects of different traffic levels and the inability of drivers to EXACTLY reproduce a journey on UK roads, for instance:
Speed
A 1 mph increase in speed (say 60 instead of 59) will make about a 2% difference in fuel consumption - rolling friction and wind resistance increase exponentially - on top of the extra fuel need to spin the engine that bit faster.
Unless you drive everywhere using an electronic speed limiter or digital cruise control then it's impossible for most drivers to reproduce even a constant speed.
Acceleration and Braking
Big percentage differences here - and unless you are driving on an empty test track - the effects of other traffic, let alone how you drive the car, have effects at least as large as the difference attributed to different fuels.
Summary
There is a reproducible improvement of between 3% and 5% by buying the synthesised diesel fuels - BP Ultimate, Shell V-Power, Total Excellium, etc - compared to the standard branded diesel fuels.
There are smaller differences between supermarket and standard branded fuels - sometimes they are physically the same fuel - sometimes they differ only by the additive (cleaner) pack - and sometimes they are different.
Day to day variations in the weather, driver reproducibility and traffic make it very difficult for drivers to reproduce journeys.
Comparing two fuels
If you do want to make a comparison, drive your car until the fuel tank is almost empty, then fill the tank and after you have driven 200 miles (any old fuel should have been used up), drive at a fixed speed on a motorway for 10 miles and record the fuel consumption.
Then the next time you fill up, repeat the exercise with a different brand of fuel - but remember to test on exactly the same section of motorway and on a similar day.
Checking your fuel consumption over normal driving, in stop start traffic, over a period of weeks - just tells you that you have had to driven differently.
And don't forget the placebo effect. Robert
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Some supermarkets sell premium fuel.

The higher octane in premium petrol allows some engines to produce more power, this increase may translate to better economy if the driver is very disciplined - premium petrol may, or may not, have more/better cleaners/additives but no-one outside the fuel chemists know as the details aren't published.

The higher cetane in premium diesel doesn't have the same effect as higher octane in petrol engines and the lack of details on cleaners/additives also applies.

Thank you I was aware of this.
 
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In answer to your post this is from Rob Jax a former chemical engineer.

This topic reappears every so often, but in essence I'll quote my answer about diesel fuel - and petrol is pretty much the same story:

As the UK Representative to CEN WG9 (European standards committee for all motor vehicle fuels) all pump fuel in Europe is produced to meet the relevant EN standard - which you will see written on the pump body.
The major difference between the supermarket fuels and the branded fuels is the exact nature of the additive pack added to the fuel when it leaves the refinery - common rail pump lubricants, injector cleaners, etc.
Synthesised Diesel
The exception to this is the new "synthesised" diesel fuels, such as BP Ultimate (actually researched by Aral in Germany), Shell V-Power (may be called something else in the UK), and Total Excellium. These fuels are manufactured in the refinery by joining simple petroleum hydrocarbons into an exact diesel fuel - you'll need some experience of university level Chemistry to follow what they do - so just accept that they are better - higher cetane rating, better additive pack, etc.
Normal Diesel
This is a straight distillation fraction from crude oil, produced by the nearest refinery to the fuel depot - so for instance, diesel refined by Shell may be sold by any of the other retailers close to that Shell refinery. The major difference is the additive pack - which is brand specific - and any specification difference imposed on the refinery by the other retailers - and the addition of bio-diesel.
Bio-diesel
Another one of our EN committees, pump bio-diesel is a blend of normal refinery diesel (95%) and (5%) of pure bio-diesel. This is an EN standard and all EU countries will be (or are) selling this bio-diesel as a direct replacement for normal diesel. All the car manufacturers have accepted this 95:5 blended fuel, and we are working on specifications for a 90:10 blend.
Pure bio-diesel is manufactured by mixing and heating vegetable oil with methanol (methyl alcohol) and sodium hydroxide (caustic soda). This splits the vegetable oil into glycerine and fatty acids, which immediately reacts with the methanol to form a "fatty acid methyl ester" or FAME (bio-diesel).
FAME is perfectly fine as a diesel fuel, it has very good lubricating effects - and replaces the lubricant additive in a normal diesel fuel - except that it is not as stable as normal diesel - it tends to go "sour" or "rancid", which is why the car manufacturers don't like you to run a car on pure bio-diesel. Not a problem as a 95:5 blend.
Vegetable Oil
Reasonably OK for an old (pre 1995) diesel engined car - except that the car won't start on cold vegetable oil, but once the engine is running it's OK.
Other problems are that vegetable oil quickly turns in a gummy glop (like the linseed oil that artists use) and the car's fuel system and that the engine needs a lot more maintenance - blocked injectors, gummy residue in pumps and cylinders, etc.
After market additives
After market products like Millers improve the cetane rating of standard diesel, but only when the engine is cold - interestingly it doesn't help a hot engine - so cold starting is usually quieter but no difference to a hot engine - and Millers does provide good, additional pump lubricity.

Self Tuning Engine Computer
So, if your diesel engined car "self tunes" then try Shell V-Power, BP Ultimate, Total Excellium - I see between 3% and 5% improvement in fuel consumption. My Mercedes C270 returned 52.8 mpg driving from Rotterdam to Wendover yesterday - on Dutch Shell V-Power - 320 miles at speeds of around 60, 70 and 80 mph depending on the country / road speed limit - using the electronic speed limiter. If not, stick with the regular diesel fuel, and add Redex or Millers at the recommended dosage level - adding more won't improve the performance. And don't be dismissive of supermarket fuel, it can and often is identical to branded fuel.
And if you add Redex or Millers or switch to a branded fuel, then any change to the cleanliness of the injectors won't show itself for quite a few hundred miles, but pump lubrication and maybe a higher cetane rating will show an effect much sooner - depends how much old fuel was in the tank and fuel lines - and how much the old fuel dilutes the action of the new fuel.
So is there a difference between supermarket and branded fuel ? - there can be - but often there isn't.
How can you tell if one fuel is better than another?
To compare the fuel consumption, you need to exactly reproduce two journeys - exactly the same speed, exactly the same acceleration and braking, and under identical conditions:
Atmospheric Pressure
A one percent change in air pressure has an identical effect on power and torque - so driving on days with high pressure makes the engine generate more power
Temperature
Driving on hotter days reduces engine power.
Humidity and Rain
Driving on days when it is humid or raining significantly improves engine power - water injection is used in truck racing and sucking in damp air has a similar effect in increasing power.
These produce percentage level effects on mpg - making it difficult for the driver to make comparisons. Driving on a cold, damp day may see an improvement of 3% or more compared to a hot, dry day.
Even more important are the effects of different traffic levels and the inability of drivers to EXACTLY reproduce a journey on UK roads, for instance:
Speed
A 1 mph increase in speed (say 60 instead of 59) will make about a 2% difference in fuel consumption - rolling friction and wind resistance increase exponentially - on top of the extra fuel need to spin the engine that bit faster.
Unless you drive everywhere using an electronic speed limiter or digital cruise control then it's impossible for most drivers to reproduce even a constant speed.
Acceleration and Braking
Big percentage differences here - and unless you are driving on an empty test track - the effects of other traffic, let alone how you drive the car, have effects at least as large as the difference attributed to different fuels.
Summary
There is a reproducible improvement of between 3% and 5% by buying the synthesised diesel fuels - BP Ultimate, Shell V-Power, Total Excellium, etc - compared to the standard branded diesel fuels.
There are smaller differences between supermarket and standard branded fuels - sometimes they are physically the same fuel - sometimes they differ only by the additive (cleaner) pack - and sometimes they are different.
Day to day variations in the weather, driver reproducibility and traffic make it very difficult for drivers to reproduce journeys.
Comparing two fuels
If you do want to make a comparison, drive your car until the fuel tank is almost empty, then fill the tank and after you have driven 200 miles (any old fuel should have been used up), drive at a fixed speed on a motorway for 10 miles and record the fuel consumption.
Then the next time you fill up, repeat the exercise with a different brand of fuel - but remember to test on exactly the same section of motorway and on a similar day.
Checking your fuel consumption over normal driving, in stop start traffic, over a period of weeks - just tells you that you have had to driven differently.
And don't forget the placebo effect. Robert

Thank you that neatly summarises the debate.
 
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It is of course tragic that Rob Jax is no long with us to update his excellent posts from some years ago. It's those posts that I base my stance that all fuels are effectively the same to consumers - Rob knew the differences, and names the brands, but several reformulations have occurred since.

One area that Rob noted which rarely figures in these debates is the issue of lubricity - the sulphur in older fuel specifications helped to lubricate the high pressure fuel pump (HPFP) - the switch to ultra-low sulphur fuel and ever-increasing common-rail pressures means that the HPFPs are increasingly marginal for lubrication and are an expensive repair if they do fail, not just the pump itself but resulting damage to the engine. The fact that relatively few HPFP failures occur in EU/UK is down to the high minimum standard of additives/cleaners in all fuel sold here - unlike North America for instance where fuel quality varies considerably.
 
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Just found the BP station near to us was actually 1p cheaper than Morrisons so you just never know who is going to come out best. Morrisons were still cheaper than the other stations selling branded fuel though.
 
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Just found the BP station near to us was actually 1p cheaper than Morrisons so you just never know who is going to come out best. Morrisons were still cheaper than the other stations selling branded fuel though.
BP are normally the most expensive branded fuel so you were lucky. :D
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Rob’s script reminds me the VW fuel filler flap says NO Bio Diesel. No mention about blends. That said I can’t recall seeing Bio Diesel for sale near me.
 
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Rob’s script reminds me the VW fuel filler flap says NO Bio Diesel. No mention about blends. That said I can’t recall seeing Bio Diesel for sale near me.
Has 100% biodiesel ever been on sale in the UK? A few hardy souls run their cars on home-made biodiesel but I've never seen it on sale. Rob's post mentions 5% biodiesel blend with 10% in the future but the industry stopped at 7% although that is defined as "up to 7%" so may be less.
 
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Has 100% biodiesel ever been on sale in the UK? A few hardy souls run their cars on home-made biodiesel but I've never seen it on sale. Rob's post mentions 5% biodiesel blend with 10% in the future but the industry stopped at 7% although that is defined as "up to 7%" so may be less.


Yes on the Fosse A429 just south of where it crosses the A40, it was on the left hand side. Not open any longer though.
 

Sam Vimes

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Oct 24th at Tesco Inverness diesel 1.33. Today 1.35.

Petrol 140 something. Can't remember exactly.

On Skye diesel at least 11p more and petrol cheaper than diesel.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I am constantly amazed at the differential costs of fuel in my area. I suspect there is some kind of formula the suppliers use to determine how much extra the public are prepared to pay vs distance to next fuel station.

Its tempting to think that using the local Tesco station 1 mile away is going to yield the lowest price, but Morrisons 4 miles away and Sainsburys 5 miles away are invariably 1 to 2p cheaper, whilst non motorway Shell and Esso stations are typically 5 to 6p per litre more expensive.

Even alternative Tesco stations 4 and 4.5miles away are usually 1p cheaper.
 
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Staying within guidelines some one some where is telling me porkies🤬
Fuel is being used as a lever against some countries.
It is well documented we have considerable oil / gas reserves north of Scotland. BUT in some words , not green. Better to buy in from another pollutant country so we can say we are green. 😵‍💫Apologies now if this comment is out of order but I really have had enough of all this COP stuff
 
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I am constantly amazed at the differential costs of fuel in my area. I suspect there is some kind of formula the suppliers use to determine how much extra the public are prepared to pay vs distance to next fuel station.

Its tempting to think that using the local Tesco station 1 mile away is going to yield the lowest price, but Morrisons 4 miles away and Sainsburys 5 miles away are invariably 1 to 2p cheaper, whilst non motorway Shell and Esso stations are typically 5 to 6p per litre more expensive.

Even alternative Tesco stations 4 and 4.5miles away are usually 1p cheaper.
I doubt there's any formula - in Tamworth along the A5 there can be a 10p/litre difference a 100 yards apart
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Staying within guidelines some one some where is telling me porkies🤬
Fuel is being used as a lever against some countries.
It is well documented we have considerable oil / gas reserves north of Scotland. BUT in some words , not green. Better to buy in from another pollutant country so we can say we are green. 😵‍💫Apologies now if this comment is out of order but I really have had enough of all this COP stuff
Steady on Dusty at this rate you won’t survive the next two weeks. Best go into a darkened room, or go find a nice CL with no mobile, radio or tv signals. 🛢⛽️
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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Staying within guidelines some one some where is telling me porkies🤬
Fuel is being used as a lever against some countries.
It is well documented we have considerable oil / gas reserves north of Scotland. BUT in some words , not green. Better to buy in from another pollutant country so we can say we are green. 😵‍💫Apologies now if this comment is out of order but I really have had enough of all this COP stuff
They jet in from all over the world burning fossil fuel, rent fossil powered cars, use fossil powered electricity and then they all climb on the bandwagon telling us that we should do better. However they are not exactly being an example to us mere mortals. Doesn't Zoom function any more?
 
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They jet in from all over the world burning fossil fuel, rent fossil powered cars, use fossil powered electricity and then they all climb on the bandwagon telling us that we should do better. However they are not exactly being an example to us mere mortals. Doesn't Zoom function any more?
Having been using Zoom and Teams I really don’t think you could expect 200 countries each with a
negotiating team to develop anything remotely meaningful by video. Having been involved in negotiations on a far smaller scale it’s the face to face and supplementary contacts that are often the most productive. What comes out of COP26 may not be ideal, but it will keep noses to the grindstone and hopefully move things along towards abating the build up of gases responsible in large measure for global warming.


Good news for planespotters though.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59114688
 
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What comes out of COP26 may not be ideal, but it will keep noses to the grindstone and hopefully move things along towards abating the build up of gases responsible in large measure for global warming.
Sorry the reference to Zoom was just a bit of humorous sarcasm. The main thing to come out of COP26 will be a lot of hot air which will add to pollution.
Sadly many countries will not adhere to the guidelines requested as the guidelines probably will cause them economic hardship.
No one is disputing that we need to clean up our act, it is way that the governments are going about it that may annoy some people.
 
May 7, 2012
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Staying within guidelines some one some where is telling me porkies🤬
Fuel is being used as a lever against some countries.
It is well documented we have considerable oil / gas reserves north of Scotland. BUT in some words , not green. Better to buy in from another pollutant country so we can say we are green. 😵‍💫Apologies now if this comment is out of order but I really have had enough of all this COP stuff
I do understand the problem and think some climate change activists are blind to the point. Quite simply we are going to be using fossil fuels to some extent for the foreseeable future and what we should be doing is trying to make these as low impact as possible. Before we open say a new oil field the question that has to be asked is "what happens if we do not open it?". If that means the fuel will still be needed but will come from miles away and cause more pollution transporting it then we have to pen the new field to help save the planet.
The North East of England seems to have scored an own goal by not opening a new small coal mine to supply specialist coal, mainly to steam railways. The coal will still be mined but in Russia and travel here at a cost to the environment and we will be spending foreign exchange on bringing it in. The result seems to be the exact opposite of what they were trying to achieve.
 

Parksy

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Around 13000 tonnes of CO2 has been added to the atmosphere by over 400 private jet aircraft carrying world leaders and business executives to COP26.
The billionaire owner of Amazon who used rockets to enter low earth orbit on a pleasure trip is due to arrive.
But somehow I'm responsible for 'climate change' because I enjoy a bit of slow cooked brisket with my Yorkie pud and vegetables on a Sunday?
It's the absolute hypocrisy that I can't stand.
The only thing that will be achieved is that our household bills will increase, our current standards of living will fall and the usual suspects will continue to increase their wealth while they continue to show us who's boss.
 
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It's the absolute hypocrisy that I can't stand. Spot on Steve👏👏

The threats to switch off Jersey’s power supply to”hurt” us is pathetic. If Monsieur M gets his way Jersey will have to start up their diesel fuelled power station. More pollution just to spite us.
Never mind just think of all the pollution from the numerous pizza ovens serving fine dining to the “Green” delegates😜
 
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