Eldiss Solid construction

[longtailtit]

Agree with you about proving inherent fault.....

FYI - our solicitor deals "with anything on wheels" for a very large insurance company that offers Family Legal Protection.

He works on such cases day in/ day out including high end "wheel-related" cases.

So pretty knowledgeable I would say..............

 

[longtailtit]

Anyway don't worry................. hopefully once I can get him to look at the our "faulty repair at year 4" I will be able to help clarify things even more,.

 

[Buckman]

Agree with you about proving inherent fault.....

FYI - our solicitor deals "with anything on wheels" for a very large insurance company that offers Family Legal Protection.

He works on such cases day in/ day out including high end "wheel-related" cases.

So pretty knowledgeable I would say..............

Sounds like a solicitor many may we need?

 

[Raywood]

Section 5 Limitations Act states;

Time limit for actions founded on simple contract.

An action founded on simple contract shall not be brought after the expiration of six years from the date on which the cause of action accrued.

It does not mention from date of sale and I do not think that CRA 2015 is a simple contract? I would take the above to mean from the date the issue became apparent?

For example you purchase a unit and 4 years later it becomes apparent that there was an issue from day one due to a design or manufacturing flaw, but it took 4 years for the fault to manifest itself. You would then have up to 6 years to make a claim?

I am sure that there have been claims on vehicles older than 6 years where the manufacturer has had to do a recall.

However I am not a solicitor so I am unsure however I did bring a claim for rejection under the 30 day window when a caravan was 11 months old and I was successful, but I had valuable advice from Which Legal Services and if ever I was in a situation where the limitations act applied I would definitely consult WLS again.

Unless it is tested in court the exact interpretation of an Act is often unclear. In this case it looks certain that the right to reject is only in the first month of ownership though. What you have are rights against the seller following that which give alternative possibilities if you fail to meet the 30 day deadline or the fault develops later. There seems to be no limit on the length of time allowed for the fault to develop, but it does put the burden of proof on you to show it was a fault that was there when the item was sold and it has not simply reached the end of its natural life or was due to some other cause. In most cases expert evidence may be needed.
Up to six months you have to give the seller one chance to repair for faults found in that period and after that it is up to you to prove this was a fault existing at the date of purchase.
Time for claims will run from the date you could reasonably have discovered the fault, which might not be the same as when you found it, but there is no time limit on being able to pursue a claim whenever the fault is found. The longer it takes to appear, the harder it is likely to be to pursue.

 

[Buckman]

Unless it is tested in court the exact interpretation of an Act is often unclear. In this case it looks certain that the right to reject is only in the first month of ownership though. What you have are rights against the seller following that which give alternative possibilities if you fail to meet the 30 day deadline or the fault develops later. There seems to be no limit on the length of time allowed for the fault to develop, but it does put the burden of proof on you to show it was a fault that was there when the item was sold and it has not simply reached the end of its natural life or was due to some other cause. In most cases expert evidence may be needed.
Up to six months you have to give the seller one chance to repair for faults found in that period and after that it is up to you to prove this was a fault existing at the date of purchase.
Time for claims will run from the date you could reasonably have discovered the fault, which might not be the same as when you found it, but there is no time limit on being able to pursue a claim whenever the fault is found. The longer it takes to appear, the harder it is likely to be to pursue.

People forget that if in the first 30 days or 6 months, if you report a fault the 30 day or 6 month period is suspended until the repair is done to the satisfaction of the consumer which is why we were able tor eject an eleven month old caravan which had spent more time in the workshop than in the storage location.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Accepting the discovery a fault and reporting it to the seller before the Consumer Rights Act's (CRA ) 6year time clock expires actually stops the clock. It would be interesting to know if anyone has successfully managed secure a court judgment in their favour based on the suggestions that you can still bring a claim following the discovery of a problem occurring beyond the 6 year time limitations, and on what factors the case was upheld?. My suspicion is there is no prior case law to give guidance.

But there is a further matter which may not be fully appreciated. With a product like a caravan where its it predominantly an assembly of sub assemblies, Unless the fault that arrises renders the caravan unusable, the CRA clock will only stop for the relevant sub assembly. For example an issue with the refrigerator may stop the CRA clock for that fault, but it wont necessarily extend the time limits for the other subassemblies.

Each case would be judged on its own merits.

 

[Raywood]

Prof, there is no six year limit in the Act. For claims time runs from when you might reasonably have discovered the defect. That in theory would mean you could still claim for a defect arising after six years, although as I said I find it difficult to see how you would be able to prove this was a defect existing when you purchased the caravan. It is theoretically possible though but I am not aware of any actual cases. I think the risks would normally be too high for the value that would be left by then.
In fact the only time limit I know of for making a claim after a problem is discovered is in Scotland where there is a 20 year long stop. This may seem like a long time but we have met it, mainly in things like house purchase when an error by the purchasers solicitor may not show up until the property is sold, so this can be many years down the line. I have certainly dealt with this type of claim.
I would agree that a fault in one item on a caravan would not help to delay the time limit under the CRA for another item found defective later. So the defective fridge found early would not help if damp appeared 12 months later.

 

[Buckman]

In our case the first time suspension was for the front panel which was found to have cracked withing the first week after delivery. It took 3 months for the dealer to be able to fit the new panel.

While it was in the workshop for the front panel repair, a crack in the rear panel was found. This was in addition to a host of other issues in the meantime as we were able to use the caravan while waiting for the front panel. Took another 3 months for a rear panel.

Shortly after rear panel was fitted, a crack in the new front panel was found. On inspection for a report by an independent third party we were shown the poor workmanship when fitting the new front panel and damage that was caused to the front skylight.

As a fridge is an integral part of the caravan the time suspension would apply to the whole caravan as you never bought the caravan piecemeal. You bought it as a complete entity.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof, there is no six year limit in the Act.

I have read and heard several different reliable sources who are open about their qualifications can be confirmed who make it clear there is a 6 year (in England, 5 years in Scotland) time limit to make a CRA claim. It is only here on this forum where it has been claimed (but not substantiated) there is no time limit.

For example the Money Saving Expert

https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2013/10/how-long-do-you-have-to-take-faulty-goods-back/

says:=
"Within six years – the longest you have to claim fault. The English statute of limitations says you have six years to bring a claim (five in Scotland), so in effect, that’s the maximum time you have to take back faulty goods. "

(edit) The above quote suggests the time period for making a claim is limited by the statute of limitations. This shows that you must also take into account other applicable law alongside the CRA not just try to apply it independently

I would be interested to be given links to evidence that confirms the legal case where a (edit) new claim beyond 6 years has been successful under CRA legislation.

 

[Dustydog]

I agree Prof.

CRA 2015 specifically says
A consumer can take legal action up to six years from the date they bought the vehicle (five years in Scotland). This does not mean that the vehicle has to last or be fault free for six years; it is the time limit for making a claim in respect of a fault that was present at the time of sale.

Another little twist is the 10 years Water ingress Warranty. The Dealer will still be liable for ensuring that a warranty is honoured even beyond the English 6 years.. I‘ll stand corrected but the CRA specifically mentions extended Warranties.

 

[Buckman]

I agree Prof.

CRA 2015 specifically says
A consumer can take legal action up to six years from the date they bought the vehicle (five years in Scotland). This does not mean that the vehicle has to last or be fault free for six years; it is the time limit for making a claim in respect of a fault that was present at the time of sale.

Another little twist is the 10 years Water ingress Warranty. The Dealer will still be liable for ensuring that a warranty is honoured even beyond the English 6 years.. I‘ll stand corrected but the CRA specifically mentions extended Warranties.

Interestingly I cannot find any mention of the 6 year limit in CRA 2015 anywhere? Probably missed it, but would be interested to know if there is any section or clause in CRA 2015 that mentions this time limit.

If you buy goods and in the first 6 months if there is an issue and it takes the dealer a couple of months to effect the repair as per S22 (8) the waiting period kicks in so maybe it is still possible for a claim to be made after the 6 years has expired? At the moment it is taking several months to effect some repairs due to delays with spare parts.

Also if you have bought the goods over several years on Hire Purchase maybe the onus is still with the finance company to resolve the issue?

CRA 2015 (S30) may cover extended warranties or guarantees? S30(7) states What is a reasonable time is a question of fact.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I agree Prof.

CRA 2015 specifically says
A consumer can take legal action up to six years from the date they bought the vehicle (five years in Scotland). This does not mean that the vehicle has to last or be fault free for six years; it is the time limit for making a claim in respect of a fault that was present at the time of sale.

Another little twist is the 10 years Water ingress Warranty. The Dealer will still be liable for ensuring that a warranty is honoured even beyond the English 6 years.. I‘ll stand corrected but the CRA specifically mentions extended Warranties.

By definition the CRA can only apply to retail contracts, and as has been discussed at length it does not apply to the manufacturers warranties, they are totally independent entities to the dealer's contractual obligations, so a dealer cannot be held to be liable for the manufacturers promises.

I wonder if you are confusing the differences between a inherently long manufacturers warranty such as a 10 year body guarantee, and a purchased extended guarantee,. Purchased extended guarantees are a new retail contract and will be covered by the CRA.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Interestingly I cannot find any mention of the 6 year limit in CRA 2015 anywhere? Probably missed it, but would be interested to know if there is any section or clause in CRA 2015 that mentions this time limit.

If you buy goods and in the first 6 months if there is an issue and it takes the dealer a couple of months to effect the repair as per S22 (8) the waiting period kicks in so maybe it is still possible for a claim to be made after the 6 years has expired? At the moment it is taking several months to effect some repairs due to delays with spare parts.

Also if you have bought the goods over several years on Hire Purchase maybe the onus is still with the finance company to resolve the issue?

CRA 2015 (S30) may cover extended warranties or guarantees? S30(7) states What is a reasonable time is a question of fact.

The Statue of Limitations is an overarching piece of legislation, and unless it is specifically put aside for specific circumstances in any subsequent legislation it has to be specifically referenced in the legislation that seeks to put it aside. Therefore the absence of its mention in the CRA d means its still applicable

This is one of the dangers of looking at one piece of legislation in isolation, and ignoring the norms of the general context.

 

[Buckman]

The Statue of Limitations is an overarching piece of legislation, and unless it is specifically put aside for specific circumstances in any subsequent legislation it has to be specifically referenced in the legislation that seeks to put it aside. Therefore the absence of its mention in the CRA d means its still applicable

This is one of the dangers of looking at one piece of legislation in isolation, and ignoring the norms of the general context.

I agree, but DD specifically mentioned that it is in the CRA 2015 and not in the Limitations Act which i have not yet read.

 

[Raywood]

Interestingly I cannot find any mention of the 6 year limit in CRA 2015 anywhere? Probably missed it, but would be interested to know if there is any section or clause in CRA 2015 that mentions this time limit.

If you buy goods and in the first 6 months if there is an issue and it takes the dealer a couple of months to effect the repair as per S22 (8) the waiting period kicks in so maybe it is still possible for a claim to be made after the 6 years has expired? At the moment it is taking several months to effect some repairs due to delays with spare parts.

Also if you have bought the goods over several years on Hire Purchase maybe the onus is still with the finance company to resolve the issue?

CRA 2015 (S30) may cover extended warranties or guarantees? S30(7) states What is a reasonable time is a question of fact.

There is no mention in the act this is a different Act. In normal circumstances you have six years to commence proceedings, five in Scotland, and this runs from the date of the accident. This applies to things like motoring accidents when the date is fixed. If you have a problem with faulty goods and the problem appears later then time runs from hen you might reasonably have discovered the problem.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There is no mention in the act this is a different Act. In normal circumstances you have six years to commence proceedings, five in Scotland, and this runs from the date of the accident. This applies to things like motoring accidents when the date is fixed. If you have a problem with faulty goods and the problem appears later then time runs from hen you might reasonably have discovered the problem.

I suspect the statute of limitations will still apply and it may preclude starting a claim beyond 6 years (5 in Scotland) from when you take full possession of the product.

The CRA's time scales for remedies may start form the point you discover the fault, But if the act supersedes the statue of limitations it must say so.

 

[Dustydog]

I wonder if you are confusing the differences between a inherently long manufacturers warranty such as a 10 year body guarantee, and a purchased extended guarantee,. Purchased extended guarantees are a new retail contract and will be covered by the CRA.

I wasn‘t sure. It struck me that if retailer sells an extended warranty to me , irrespective of who underwrites it under CRA the Dealer is still liable . What happens when the warranty is longer than the CRA time limit?
Any guarantee provided by a manufacturer doesn’t modify the purchasers CRA legal rights against the Dealer? 🤔

 

[ProfJohnL]

I wasn‘t sure. It struck me that if retailer sells an extended warranty to me , irrespective of who underwrites it under CRA the Dealer is still liable . What happens when the warranty is longer than the CRA time limit?
Any guarantee provided by a manufacturer doesn’t modify the purchasers CRA legal rights against the Dealer? 🤔

The CRA makes it quite clear that its area of effect cannot adversely affected by the content of the retail contract. So what ever the manufacturers or extended warranty offers cannot be used to prevent the customer from accessing their legal rights.

As purchased extended warranties are all different, its difficult to give a specific answer that covers all, but in general when you purchase an extended warranty the dealer is acting as an agent for something like an insurance company, so you actually purchasing from the policy provider rather than the dealer - though in many cases you may actually be paying the funds to the named dealer. I'm not sure how the CRA deals with these these transactions, but I suspect the contract is between the customer and the policy provider not the dealer so the liabilities under the scheme do not lie with the dealer but with the policy provider.

Your concern if the policy runs for longer than the statute of limitations, the policy still stands. The 'agent' who introduced you to policy provider and transmitted the the funds for the policy did not " sell" the policy so the dealer does not assume the obligations or liabilities of the policy. My guess is your CRA rights with the dealer in this situation only lie with their actions in introducing you to the policy and handling the transaction.

 

[Buckman]

I would think that if you took out an extended warranty in year 3, that cover will remain in place for the 6 years under CRA 2015. However normally do those warranties run from year to year and every year you need to renew it? Good question.

 

[Dustydog]

The CRA makes it quite clear that its area of effect cannot adversely affected by the content of the retail contract. So what ever the manufacturers or extended warranty offers cannot be used to prevent the customer from accessing their legal rights.
Fully agree.

As purchased extended warranties are all different, its difficult to give a specific answer that covers all, but in general when you purchase an extended warranty the dealer is acting as an agent for something like an insurance company, so you actually purchasing from the policy provider rather than the dealer - though in many cases you may actually be paying the funds to the named dealer. I'm not sure how the CRA deals with these these transactions, but I suspect the contract is between the customer and the policy provider not the dealer so the liabilities under the scheme do not lie with the dealer but with the policy provider.
Not so sure. Looking at CRA it doesn’t seem to matter what is sold but who sells it at the point of sale. Any Warranty , Guarantee is still within the CRA Law. I was thinking of the caravan type water ingress warranties which go beyond 6 (5) years. No different in some ways to buying Insurance from an Intermediary. They are liable if the policy sold isn’t what the customer ordered .Hence the enormous cost of Professional Indemnity Insurance.
As you have said previously there are no Precedents available yet to show how CRA will work in a lot of areas.

Your concern if the policy runs for longer than the statute of limitations, the policy still stands. The 'agent' who introduced you to policy provider and transmitted the the funds for the policy did not " sell" the policy so the dealer does not assume the obligations or liabilities of the policy. My guess is your CRA rights with the dealer in this situation only lie with their actions in introducing you to the policy and handling the transaction.

That begs the question who is the “Seller”?

 

[otherclive]

I would think that if you took out an extended warranty in year 3, that cover will remain in place for the 6 years under CRA 2015. However normally do those warranties run from year to year and every year you need to renew it? Good question.

I had an extended warranty on my previous caravan and car as both had been pre owned. They both ran for two years and didn’t require to be purchased on an annual basis. I could have purchased it for a maximum period of three years at the time. Any claims under the insurance warranty would have been between me and the insurer.

 

[Dustydog]

I had an extended warranty on my previous caravan and car as both had been pre owned. They both ran for two years and didn’t require to be purchased on an annual basis. I could have purchased it for a maximum period of three years at the time. Any claims under the insurance warranty would have been between me and the insurer.

This on the CRA website.

11. Warranties / guarantees
11.1
Any warranty or guarantee you sell or provide for free with the vehicle is in addition to the consumer's legal rights under the CRA. It is not a substitute for those legal rights.

You cannot, for instance, refuse to deal with a consumer’s complaint about a fault or defect with a vehicle simply on the grounds that:

• The consumer's warranty / guarantee has expired, or
• The type of fault is specifically excluded from the warranty / guarantee coverage.

Basically the Dealer selling or giving such a warranty/guarantee can’t walk away.
Well that’s how I read it. Any thoughts Guys?

 

[otherclive]

This on the CRA website.

11. Warranties / guarantees
11.1
Any warranty or guarantee you sell or provide for free with the vehicle is in addition to the consumer's legal rights under the CRA. It is not a substitute for those legal rights.

You cannot, for instance, refuse to deal with a consumer’s complaint about a fault or defect with a vehicle simply on the grounds that:

• The consumer's warranty / guarantee has expired, or
• The type of fault is specifically excluded from the warranty / guarantee coverage.

Basically the Dealer selling or giving such a warranty/guarantee can’t walk away.
Well that’s how I read it. Any thoughts Guys?

I took the insurance warranties out and paid the insurer direct as both were cheaper than buying from the dealership and gave me the choice of which warranty provider I wanted.
The point of my post was to answer Buckmans post about possibly having to renew a warranty annually, not to get involved in the convolutions of CRA 2015. Needless to say I still had my consumer rights on the purchase of car and caravan under CRA 2015.

 

[Dustydog]

I took the insurance warranties out and paid the insurer direct as both were cheaper than buying from the dealership and gave me the choice of which warranty provider I wanted.
The point of my post was to answer Buckmans post about possibly having to renew a warranty annually, not to get involved in the convolutions of CRA 2015. Needless to say I still had my consumer rights on the purchase of car and caravan under CRA 2015.

It all depends who he paid??

 

[Buckman]

This on the CRA website.

11. Warranties / guarantees
11.1
Any warranty or guarantee you sell or provide for free with the vehicle is in addition to the consumer's legal rights under the CRA. It is not a substitute for those legal rights.

You cannot, for instance, refuse to deal with a consumer’s complaint about a fault or defect with a vehicle simply on the grounds that:

• The consumer's warranty / guarantee has expired, or
• The type of fault is specifically excluded from the warranty / guarantee coverage.

Basically the Dealer selling or giving such a warranty/guarantee can’t walk away.
Well that’s how I read it. Any thoughts Guys?

I am in that situation at present and it is the supplier's responsibility to resolve the issue even though the warranty is with another company. The vehicle was only 6 weeks from delivery when the issue was spotted.
The supplier are resolving the issue at present although intially I was told to chase the warranty company. Soon put them right however need to give the supplier their due, no more issues and a loan car is being supplied.