Eldiss Solid construction

[ProfJohnL]

I’m still not comfortable with the Agents role described.
Manufacturers' agents or representatives are independent contractors who work on commission to sell products for more one or more manufacturers.
Some sell Bailey and Swift etc. I can see nothing in CRA that says an “Agent” can sell things and be exempt , even a warranty.
It is further noteworthy that the Warranties I have seen specifically tell you to consult your Dealer not the Manufacturer.

Think about Insurance agents, They are not held liable if an insurance policy claim is declined or the insurance company goes bust - It the same process.

With regards how you make a claim, that is down to how the particular manufacturer or policy owner decided they want you to make contact.
In the case of the caravan warranties they prefer to take claims via the dealer, but the liability only rests with the manufacture.

May I suggest you try to get your dealer to accept the liability for any part of the manufacturers warranty if the manufacture delines a claim.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Sorry but I do not think I have said anything different to you.
Yes if the dealer pays for an extended warranty for the purchaser then the purchaser can use either that or the CRA assuming they would both apply to the fault. If either the CRA or the warranty give better protection you can use that one. It is possible a fault will develop which was not there or cannot be shown to exist at the date of sale and only the warranty would normally cover this.
The warranty is only binding on the company providing it and the CRA on the dealer although in most cases you would expect both to apply.
We do seem to be going off course here though as this was a 2020 model so the CRA will apply as should the warranty and the claim should be made using both.

The principle point is that the dealer does not "retail" extended warranties, They do not buy the policy to later sell it on, they only collect premium on behalf of the policy owner. They therefore do not "pay" for an extended warranty, the consumer pays!

 

[Buckman]

Its decades since we purchased a UK made caravan, but what you state did not apply to the warranty with our Hymer, a German van.

The warranty, did not involve the dealer, it was between us and Hymer and valid both in the UK and throughout at least a whole listing of European Hymer dealerships; I received a booklet naming countless numbers of these. In all obvious ways just like our two new cars purchased over the last decade have been.

In other products than caravans I have registered the purchase to instigate a warranty with the maker's European branch; LG, Western Digital & Opticron as example in the last year. I no case was other than declaring where purchased was the reseller involved.

Decades ago there was no CRA 2015. If you have a claim it needs to be taken up with the supplier. A warranty is additional to your rights under CRA 2015. I must admit I am not sure if you are disputing agreeing to anything?

 

[JTQ]

I must admit I am not sure if you are disputing agreeing to anything?

I am saying that in my cases of buying caravans, your quoted statement, was not correct. My warranties, were just that, "mine", between us and the maker.
Possibly, one not covered by your "Generally", if that is indeed a true warranty anomaly that is in place with some caravan purchases.

"Generally when puchasing from a dealer the warranty is between the dealer and the manufacturer and not between the consumer and the manufacturer. "

 

[Dustydog]

Think about Insurance agents, They are not held liable if an insurance policy claim is declined or the insurance company goes bust - It the same process.

All Intermediaries are governed by the FCA. An Agent that fits your description would have to be on the Insurers payroll. There’s a fine line between an Agent and a Broker. The Broker would of course need Professional Indemnity Insurance. An Agent acting for more than one Insurer will be deemed an Intermediary and also be subject to needing PI insurance . So if the claim is rejected because the policy did not cover what was requested the broker gets the blame and pays, hence PI. I realise we off beat but I am still confident CRA will enable a purchaser of a warranty to sue the Dealer first.


With regards how you make a claim, that is down to how the particular manufacturer or policy owner decided they want you to make contact.
In the case of the caravan warranties they prefer to take claims via the dealer, but the liability only rests with the manufacture.
I disagree the CRA takes precedence over the Warranty terms up to the prescribed time limits. Ie rejection of a leaky caravan is against the Dealer not the Manufacturer in the first instance?


May I suggest you try to get your dealer to accept the liability for any part of the manufacturers warranty if the manufacture delines a claim.

 

[Mr Plodd]

Many have asked why caravans need resealing etc whereas cars don't. There are several reasons that I can see.

1. Caravans are not made of metal, so are not welded together into solid units like cars, and therfore any joints can/will fex in use.
2. They are assembled by human beings. Cars are assembled by robots. Robots can carry out exactly the same process (applying sealant beads to joints etc) in exactly the same way, tens of thousands of times. Humans cant do that.
3. Caravans are basically a cube so can flex relatively easily whilst a car is a highly complex shape in comparison, and therefore a far more rigid structure.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Perhaps I should not have used the name Agent, but I was trying to differentiate the activity of selling products ( a dealer) to the activity of facilitating an extended warranty policy. may have used the word Agent incorrectly, but i used it to differentiate the activity of facilitating a customer to register and paying for an extended warranties from selling retail goods.

Having worked for several manufacturers I am familiar with the companies liability under the "manufacturers Warranty and Extended Warranty policies , and how that liability rests with the manufacture or warranty company. It does not rest on the retailer who sold the goods.

We will have to agree to disagree on the "dealers" liability to the extended warranty.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Many have asked why caravans need resealing etc whereas cars don't. There are several reasons that I can see.

1. Caravans are not made of metal, so are not welded together into solid units like cars, and therfore any joints can/will fex in use.
2. They are assembled by human beings. Cars are assembled by robots. Robots can carry out exactly the same process (applying sealant beads to joints etc) in exactly the same way, tens of thousands of times. Humans cant do that.
3. Caravans are basically a cube so can flex relatively easily whilst a car is a highly complex shape in comparison, and therefore a far more rigid structure.

Then its about time caravan manufacturers started to use more reliable and proven methods!

 

[JTQ]

Then its about time caravan manufacturers started to use more reliable and proven methods.

Why, when they have such a gullible and abundant market to dump their products on?
Till "we" change into something way more discerning, there is no chance they will.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Posted in error

 

[Dustydog]

Mandarin. Any news or progress please? We are all batting for you

 

[Mandarin]

Thanks for the interesting discussion, luckily we've not reached the stage of litigation etc. In any case as we bought privately the CRA is (I assume) not applicable and we rely on the 3 year warranty.

It's grinding its painfully slow way forwards and we now wait for Eldiss to decide if they want to inspect in person or if they will rely on the local dealers photos and report. As said before I can't fault the local dealer.

I suspect that decision will now be in January, so we're being patient.

Your support is appreciated, I will update when there's something to report.

 

[Raywood]

Your ability to pursue a claim under the warranty may depend on whether they have a presence here. If they have business premises hen there is someone to go for but if you are looking at anything imported and the maker has no actual presence here, then warranty claims cannot be easily pursued further against them if you are unhappy with there response to the claim.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Your ability to pursue a claim under the warranty may depend on whether they have a presence here. If they have business premises hen there is someone to go for but if you are looking at anything imported and the maker has no actual presence here, then warranty claims cannot be easily pursued further against them if you are unhappy with there response to the claim.

But assuming the caravan was purchased in new the UK, there will be a UK derived contract of sale giving the owner CRA rights against the seller.

 

[Buckman]

But assuming the caravan was purchased in new the UK, there will be a UK derived contract of sale giving the owner CRA rights against the seller.

Caravan was bought privately as per post #112

 

[Mandarin]

Well the response is back, the Eldiss say the failure is classic pothole damage and therefore not subject to warranty. Which leaves an insurance claim as the only way forward.
I accept that due to poor maintenance some of the roads we've been on (and the A617 is terrible) have had potholes and we can recall one occasion where we had no option but to go through one. However aren't these caravans supposed to be tested on rough test tracks - at least that what the SoLiD sales stuff says.
One way or another we'll get it fixed, sold and walk away from anything Eldiss.
Wish we'd never sold the Bailey now.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm sorry to read of the manufacturers response. Sadly I think it was somewhat predictable, as other owners have tried previously and eventually given up when the manufacture has said no.

I suspect you don't have either the will or the funds to go after the manufacture through the courts to challenge their decision.

I only mention it becasue, becasue if they do make claims in their literature and advertising about testing on rough roads which implies their products should stand up to similar conditions, then you have a right to expect their products to be adequately prepared for the typical state of many of the UK's roads.

It amounts to false advertising, and whilst that charge can only be brought against the seller (not the manufacturer), the fact the dealer uses the manufacturers literature and statements as part of their sales pitch, they do form part of the contract of sale when the product is purchased new, and there should be some way to make the manufacturers culpable for the claims they make.

The fact that so many caravans from this manufacture (and others) do seem to suffer from what the manufacturer claims is pothole damage, demonstrates the manufacture is not designing the caravans to be fit for purpose and of adequate materials to be sufficiently durable.

Part of the problem is that when such a claim is lodged, its manufacturer who is the assessor, judge and jury in the matter, and they have a vested interest (Profitability) in the outcome. It is hardly surprising they reject more claims of this type than they accept. Its a process that's not unique to caravans, but it is fundamentally skewed against the best interests of the consumer.

Caravans should be designed with due regard for the conditions that most caravanners will want to use them in, for example caravanners like to find the out-of-the-way locations which do not have perfect roads servicing them. That is one of the major attractions of caravanning, and those are the conditions the caravan should be designed for.

 

[otherclive]

Over the last month there has been a noticeable increase in pot holes and road surface degradation. The cold spell set it off and the recent heavy rains have exacerbated it. This last week in two trips to Coventry the Fosse in Wilts and Glos has developed scours on the nearside where heavy rain has led the “ streams” developing which contain debris that further scours out more of the surface. In fact on Thursday as I was returning after dark I opted to take a big detour down the M6, M5 and M4 to avoid hitting standing water or potholes. The last time I did that regularly was when Two Jags Prescott was Transport Minister.

My last caravan suffered an axle suspension failure which I noticed following a trip to Shropshire where the roads were appalling. Dusty was staying on the same site and advised my of a “slightly” better return route.

 

[Buckman]

Well the response is back, the Eldiss say the failure is classic pothole damage and therefore not subject to warranty. Which leaves an insurance claim as the only way forward.
I accept that due to poor maintenance some of the roads we've been on (and the A617 is terrible) have had potholes and we can recall one occasion where we had no option but to go through one. However aren't these caravans supposed to be tested on rough test tracks - at least that what the SoLiD sales stuff says.
One way or another we'll get it fixed, sold and walk away from anything Eldiss.
Wish we'd never sold the Bailey now.

Pothole damage is accidental damage. Contact your insurance company and tell them that the manufacturer is stating pothole damage which is in effect accidental damage. They will send an assessor who more than likely will state it is not accidental damage and damage is due to a design and build issue. At same time get a report from an independent AWS technician.

Although bought privately if it is design issue you may be able to get somewhere. As the repair will be under £10000 if taken to small claims court and you win, it will cost you nothing. If you lose, it still will not cost you a lot of money probably in the vicinity of about £500.

Did you ever consult Which Legal Services?

 

[Raywood]

Eldiss know the state of our roads and for a caravan to be fit for purpose it has to be able to handle those that the caravan can reasonably be expected to encounter. You probably would be well aware of any potholes being struck that were so severe as to e exceptional so unless there was one I would not accept the explanation telling them there has been nothing of the sort and it is their construction that is the problem. If need be get legal advice, but at the same time find out what the cost of repairs will be and see if this can be dealt with in the small claims court as that is far more of a problem for the defence than the claimant.

 

[Buckman]

Eldiss know the state of our roads and for a caravan to be fit for purpose it has to be able to handle those that the caravan can reasonably be expected to encounter. You probably would be well aware of any potholes being struck that were so severe as to e exceptional so unless there was one I would not accept the explanation telling them there has been nothing of the sort and it is their construction that is the problem. If need be get legal advice, but at the same time find out what the cost of repairs will be and see if this can be dealt with in the small claims court as that is far more of a problem for the defence than the claimant.

The big issue here is that the caravan was bought privately so options are very limited.

 

[otherclive]

The big issue here is that the caravan was bought privately so options are very limited.

Totally agree as there is absolutely no way of knowing how the previous owner cared for it, and incipient damage may have been present from date of purchase from the private seller.

At one time cars suspension and ride was tested on long sections ofBelgian pave, that why French cars rode so well. For some years now continental makers have shipped their cars to UK for development testing on our roads, MIRA even has a potholed damaged section too. Good to know we set the "gold' standard

 

[RogerL]

Totally agree as there is absolutely no way of knowing how the previous owner cared for it, and incipient damage may have been present from date of purchase from the private seller.

At one time cars suspension and ride was tested on long sections ofBelgian pave, that why French cars rode so well. For some years now continental makers have shipped their cars to UK for development testing on our roads, MIRA even has a potholed damaged section too. Good to know we set the "gold' standard

Most test centres like MIRA have sections of road to cover the wide range of roads found around the world, including Belgian Pave.

 

[otherclive]

Most test centres like MIRA have sections of road to cover the wide range of roads found around the world, including Belgian Pave.

I thought I had addressed MIRA although clearly didn’t cover the whole range of what MIRA can test. But specifically I was more focussed on UK poor road surfaces.

 

[Buckman]

I thought I had addressed MIRA although clearly didn’t cover the whole range of what MIRA can test. But specifically I was more focussed on UK poor road surfaces.

UK roads are a better testing ground than any MIRA facility! 😆 😆 Sorry not really a laughing matter!