EVs changing the face of caravanning.

[ProfJohnL]

Of course, it is relevant, far more so than that recharging comparison to ICE powered vehicles.

Consider, for a moment the ramifications of the "recharging" time difference to recharge an ICE with any of today's EVs, coupled to not even reliably being able to park an EV near an owner's home, as we see in street after street in Portsmouth?

I thought the point you were making was about the availability of the vehicle not the time it takes to refuel. And I can't disagree the time it takes to recharge an EV is still much longer than the time refill a tank full of dino juice.

But if a driver has already moved to an EV, and they don't have off street parking they will have already worked out how to and how long to charge the car. That doesn't change just becasue they decide to tow a caravan. In fact assuming they have sorted their over night charging needs, it means they are actually better off as the car is more often fully charged in the morning, where as ICE may not have full tank.

 

[Dustydog]

2019 we had 17 trips to N Devon dealing with my Mum. It was second nature to ensure the car was full of diesel just before we returned home. We were often called out early hours.
My diy EV is a bit different. By way of personal custom and practice she gets plugged in at the end of each use.
Never fully charge. Only 80%. Takes about 60 mins. The charger is fan cooled. I understand from other DIY EVs the extra 20% charge can take over an extra hour.
The L.ion battery care explains constant charging beyond 80% shortens the lifespan and performance. Does that apply to the present range of EV cars? Are the makers range claims based best battery practice or 100%charge?

 

[otherclive]

I think it's true for the majority of current batteries and users, given the spareness of ultra rapid chargers. For the 800v based cars (Kia EV6, Hyudai Ioniq 5, Porsche Taycan) which can charge 10-80% in under 20 mins (arround 180 miles) or 10% to 40% in about 5 mins (75 miles) it's less of an issue. The next generation of batteries are looking to achieve even faster rates (There is a fully charged plus podcast on that).
I can see smaller cars, with smaller batteries good for 150 - 170 miles charging in 5 - 10 mins on a suite of local ultra-rapid chargers, coupled with on street lamp post charging, and cross pavement solutions.

I think that the new Kia EV9 SUV is claiming 20 minutes for 10- 80%. Hardly enough time for a toilet and coffee stop before you are accused of blocking the charging bay 😂

 

[JezzerB]

Some EVs recommend max 80 % BMW on our mini recommend 100% . They're different according to their battery management systems.

 

[Buckman]

I think that the new Kia EV9 SUV is claiming 20 minutes for 10- 80%. Hardly enough time for a toilet and coffee stop before you are accused of blocking the charging bay 😂

When you consider that at times you have to queue at a motorway service station for fuel, if EVs ever became mainstream, that could be a massive problem with each vehicle having to wait between 10-20 minutes to refuel. The cost os installing chargers on numerous bays would be exorbitant and take many years to break even despite charging higher prices per kw.

 

[otherclive]

When you consider that at times you have to queue at a motorway service station for fuel, if EVs ever became mainstream, that could be a massive problem with each vehicle having to wait between 10-20 minutes to refuel. The cost os installing chargers on numerous bays would be exorbitant and take many years to break even despite charging higher prices per kw.

Quite a number of posts have reported that they always come off the motorway to refuel on cost grounds. But you don’t need a 80% charge in all circumstances so some will just go for a 50% top up. Not so helpful for caravans though.

 

[Buckman]

Quite a number of posts have reported that they always come off the motorway to refuel on cost grounds. But you don’t need a 80% charge in all circumstances so some will just go for a 50% top up. Not so helpful for caravans though.

We have never toppped up at a motorway services in the UK, but have done so in France and Spain.

 

[RogerL]

2019 we had 17 trips to N Devon dealing with my Mum. It was second nature to ensure the car was full of diesel just before we returned home. We were often called out early hours.
My diy EV is a bit different. By way of personal custom and practice she gets plugged in at the end of each use.
Never fully charge. Only 80%. Takes about 60 mins. The charger is fan cooled. I understand from other DIY EVs the extra 20% charge can take over an extra hour.
The L.ion battery care explains constant charging beyond 80% shortens the lifespan and performance. Does that apply to the present range of EV cars? Are the makers range claims based best battery practice or 100%charge?

It's important that the charging from 80-100% is done much slower than the charging up to 80% - EV chargers should do that automatically, hence the often quoted headline time to 80% as the time to 100% is much, much longer.

The WLTP/NEDC/EPA range figures are based on 100 > 0%, not a typical recharging frequency.

 

[Beachball]

Ours was a Dandy, functionally and conceptionally brilliant for our then needs; our two boys sleeping in their own tents, pretty sure they would have it no other way.
"Marmite like" in our family, I loved it being somewhat oblivious to style, the beauty for me being its out and out practicality, my wife hated its looks being akin to a lorry's side brown plasticised fabrics. That the bungies kept breaking her nails was no help.

When i was younger my parents owned a pop up trailer tent at that time my dad and I use to sleep in it but my mum preferred the car

 

[Tobes]

2019 we had 17 trips to N Devon dealing with my Mum. It was second nature to ensure the car was full of diesel just before we returned home. We were often called out early hours.
My diy EV is a bit different. By way of personal custom and practice she gets plugged in at the end of each use.
Never fully charge. Only 80%. Takes about 60 mins. The charger is fan cooled. I understand from other DIY EVs the extra 20% charge can take over an extra hour.
The L.ion battery care explains constant charging beyond 80% shortens the lifespan and performance. Does that apply to the present range of EV cars? Are the makers range claims based best battery practice or 100%charge?

The maximum range quoted (WLTP) is 100% to 0%. How full and how far you should charge each car is car specific. For the polestar, they recommend charging to 90% for daily use. Charging to 100% is absolutely fine and can be done all the time BUT the car should not be left with a very high (higher than 90%) or very low (lower than 10%) for any significant period of time. It is the prolonged storage at high or low level of charge that can do damage, not the charging to or use from 100%.

Each car also has its own charging curve depending on its battery and BMS (battery management system). Mine slows from 50kW to about 35kW at about 85%. The BMW i3 is renouned for being able to keep its peek rate right up to almost 100%. The Audi e-TRON 55 also charges very fast even at 99%.

 

[Buckman]

The maximum range quoted (WLTP) is 100% to 0%. How full and how far you should charge each car is car specific. For the polestar, they recommend charging to 90% for daily use. Charging to 100% is absolutely fine and can be done all the time BUT the car should not be left with a very high (higher than 90%) or very low (lower than 10%) for any significant period of time. It is the prolonged storage at high or low level of charge that can do damage, not the charging to or use from 100%.

Each car also has its own charging curve depending on its battery and BMS (battery management system). Mine slows from 50kW to about 35kW at about 85%. The BMW i3 is renouned for being able to keep its peek rate right up to almost 100%. The Audi e-TRON 55 also charges very fast even at 99%.

A lot different to an EV, but I had a scooter with a lithium battery and if you left it plugged in the battery would pack up. Even if you did not use the scooter, you still had to charge the battery every 2 - 3 days otherwise it was knackered. A replacement would set you back nearly £400!
The question is whether you can leave a modern day EV or PHEV plugged into the charger for days? What about leaving an EV unused for a couple of weeks i.e. airport parking?
I am assuming there is no issue?

 

[Tobes]

When you consider that at times you have to queue at a motorway service station for fuel, if EVs ever became mainstream, that could be a massive problem with each vehicle having to wait between 10-20 minutes to refuel. The cost os installing chargers on numerous bays would be exorbitant and take many years to break even despite charging higher prices per kw.

The cost of installing a petrol station is also exorbitant, but it's a simple business decision. What is the cost, what is the rate of return, what is the payback time? BP and Shell have both declared their charging business' profitable. Interestingly, Gridserve, who now run the motorway service area chargers have one of the lowest £/kWh charges. This is probably because they also have a high occupancy level compared to many stand alone chargers.
Gridserve have also just rolled out a SW update that enables dual charging on their new units, doubling the number of available chargers over night.

 

[Tobes]

A lot different to an EV, but I had a scooter with a lithium battery and if you left it plugged in the battery would pack up. Even if you did not use the scooter, you still had to charge the battery every 2 - 3 days otherwise it was knackered. A replacement would set you back nearly £400!

Yep -lack of an intelligent BMS.

The question is whether you can leave a modern day EV or PHEV plugged into the charger for days?

Again - it depends on the car. My V60 PHEV has an 11kWh battery with about 8-9kWh usable. When it's "full" its probably only at 90%, and empty is only 5%. It has no worry being left on charge.
The Polestar is much bigger 77kWh. There you set the maximum charge you want to reach (between 60% and 100% in 10% steps) and it will hold the charge level there until you change it, so again no problem.

What about leaving an EV unused for a couple of weeks i.e. airport parking?
I am assuming there is no issue?

As long as you dont leave it over 90% full or under 5% empty, its absolutely fine. If you plan to not use the car for longer than a month, Polestar recommend leaving it between 40 and 60% SoC.

 

[Raywood]

I do wonder if the roof box tent will work on many cars, as the roof load could be exceeded when you both get in and I would be very careful to check this out before buying. I have seen them used on Land Rover Defenders, but they are far more substantial than the average car.

 

[Buckman]

I do wonder if the roof box tent will work on many cars, as the roof load could be exceeded when you both get in and I would be very careful to check this out before buying. I have seen them used on Land Rover Defenders, but they are far more substantial than the average car.

Maximum weight on our Jeep is supposed to be about 70 kg. Not sure about a Defender but would thin k it is a lot higher. However they are supposed to be for any car? Tentbox.

 

[Tobes]

I do wonder if the roof box tent will work on many cars, as the roof load could be exceeded when you both get in and I would be very careful to check this out before buying. I have seen them used on Land Rover Defenders, but they are far more substantial than the average car.

I think they talk about this on their website. The roof load limit is the load when moving. The dynamic forces on the roof are much higher when you go over bumps than the static forces of a couple of people climbing in and out. I looked at a roofbox on a Mini at Goodwood festival of speed last year and asked exactly that question. The Mini guy had basically the same answer.

Edit - here is the link on roofloads.

TentBox Fitting Guide - Get started with a TentBox roof tent

We've created a simple 4-step guide to get you started on your TentBox adventure. Learn about roof bars, roof load limits and installation.

tentbox.com

 

[Buckman]

I think they talk about this on their website. The roof load limit is the load when moving. The dynamic forces on the roof are much higher when you go over bumps than the static forces of a couple of people climbing in and out. I looked at a roofbox on a Mini at Goodwood festival of speed last year and asked exactly that question. The Mini guy had basically the same answer.

Edit - here is the link on roofloads.

TentBox Fitting Guide - Get started with a TentBox roof tent

We've created a simple 4-step guide to get you started on your TentBox adventure. Learn about roof bars, roof load limits and installation.

tentbox.com

One of the reasons why my son gave up the roof tent is because he found it uncomfortable as mattress was too thin and not very supportive.
I think they used the roof tent on a Toyota Landcruiser in the bush in Africa, but not the version of Landcruiser you see in the UK. It was better and safer to chuck a decent mattress into the back of the Landcruiser and kip in there.
However the roof tents could be very different to the ones in the UK as this was a couple of years ago when he was working as a ranger in the one of the game parks.

 

[RogerL]

I do wonder if the roof box tent will work on many cars, as the roof load could be exceeded when you both get in and I would be very careful to check this out before buying. I have seen them used on Land Rover Defenders, but they are far more substantial than the average car.

It's generally accepted with roof tents that the roof weight limit only applies when travelling, ie unoccupied and that the addition of a couple of adults on site doesn't cause any issue.

 

[JezzerB]

Mini recommend leaving the car plugged in to charge if left for long periods. It balances the cells. As Tobes says the cars software governs charging speed which is slow for a few minutes picks up the slows after 80% .

 

[ProfJohnL]

Some (may be all) EV and Hybrid manufacturers definitely set up the battery management system to limit the maximum charge capacity to something less than the theoretical maximum battery capacity to prevent excessive battery degradation. You will sometimes hear that a car has a XXXXkwh capacity of which XXX- YYY is available.

 

[Boff]

I think these days a battery at 100% or 0% is neither fully charged or discharged. The manufacturers build in a buffer at both ends to protect the battery. There used to be a tendency to quote a battery capacity and a usable capacity which was less but is the figure that maters.

A side note, a few years ago Tesla sold cars with a standard range and a long range for a few Thousand $$$ more. There was a hurricane in Florida and Tesla over the air upgraded the range of the lower spec cars as a good will gesture.

 

[RogerL]

I think these days a battery at 100% or 0% is neither fully charged or discharged. The manufacturers build in a buffer at both ends to protect the battery. There used to be a tendency to quote a battery capacity and a usable capacity which was less but is the figure that maters.

A side note, a few years ago Tesla sold cars with a standard range and a long range for a few Thousand $$$ more. There was a hurricane in Florida and Tesla over the air upgraded the range of the lower spec cars as a good will gesture.

Not just Tesla, but there is a business model evolving that all cars will be built to top specification to get economy of scale but features will then made available on payment of subscription.

 

[JezzerB]

Already happened in motorbikes at least. KTM dealers can release Bluetooth phone connectivity as a so called touring or tech pack or some such but there's no hard ware difference so I gather. Just a computer flash.

 

[Hoomer]

EV's towing caravans will never work out.

Where do you park the caravan for an hour a couple of times a day while you recharge them?

We'll still be towing with IC engines in another two decades

 

[Tobes]

EV's towing caravans will never work out.

Where do you park the caravan for an hour a couple of times a day while you recharge them?

We'll still be towing with IC engines in another two decades

Here?