For the Newbies,

[Hutch]

Just doing my weights and balance computations for nose weights axle distances, angles etc, be back with the info soon, . As i used to do the weight and balance on 7000kg helicopters, this is a litle bit harder.
Still going to use bathroom scales and a lump of wood, every time SWMBO, buys something new and I have to move things around, and then try and lift the hitch.
Hutch

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

and then try and lift the hitch.
Hutch

You mean to say that the hitch will be hoisted by Hutch.

 

[Hutch]

Well Martin, you did tell me that I had " Reopened a bag of Worms". Well for the Newbies I hope this has been interesting, thread,
Hutch. , where shall I go next. :evil:

 

[Martin24]

Well Martin, you did tell me that I had " Reopened a bag of Worms". Well for the Newbies I hope this has been interesting, thread,
Hutch. , where shall I go next. :evil:

I'll have to put my thinking cap on, you've got everyone going on weights and gas.

Flag poles/ Flags/windsocks/outside lights/heating the awning/leaving awning lights on at night. There that should keep you going for a day or two before we move on to dowgs and children.......

 

[Hutch]

Dowgs and Smokers, already on the go on "The New Lunar " Thread, ,
Might need a reviver, after taking the hounds out for a walk to the pub. , For a change Rex didn't go swimming in the river, so the house only smells of Curry Chicken, wine and Dowgs, not "Wet Dowgs. ".
Oh but we are Happy.

H.

 

[Martin24]

Yes I saw that, saw red, wound neck in and shut up. The good thing with the pick up is at least the boot is separate so no wet dowgs in the passenger bit.

The last physio that came to the house didn't stay long. The conversation started around the dowgs being a trip hazard. Lecture from me on the benefits and positive risk taking before she left with a large flea in her ear.

 

[Hutch]

To true, Mother in law fell down in downstair loo, Rex alerted us during the night, we didnt realise for an hour or so, now we understand, Rex is a 1st Gen lab / Poodle. ( mogrel) . Both dogs never realy get in the way, at feeding time, know exactly where they are.
H.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Just doing my weights and balance computations for nose weights axle distances, angles etc, be back with the info soon, . As i used to do the weight and balance on 7000kg helicopters, this is a litle bit harder.
Still going to use bathroom scales and a lump of wood, every time SWMBO, buys something new and I have to move things around, and then try and lift the hitch.
Hutch

Get the lump of wood chop it up for sticks and burn it on the fire, I still have a 1in scar under my chin from checking the nose weight on a boat trailer using the same method.

use the van step instead, make up the height with suitable blocks and place the scales on top of that.

 

[Hutch]

Thanks Colin, I use blocks 4 inches crewewed togetherded. So not a 12 / 19 inch poles , wobbley.
Hutch

 

[Parksy]

There seems to be a great emphasis on checking nose weight for some reason and although I wouldn't condone exceeding stated limits for your outfit, of much more importance from a safety aspect is overall weight and correct loading of caravans.
Too little nose weight can have and adverse effect on caravan stability but none of the methods described to measure noseweight here or anywhere else can be guaranteed to be accurate, including bits of wood and bathroom scales which are notoriously inaccurate to start with.
My guess is that the Reich version would be the best of a bad bunch but as the Prof pointed out, noseweight is not static when a caravan is moving along a road surface, it can and does vary greatly due to the relative angles of the hitch / A frame and the towbar/ towball so the best that we can achieve is a mean average.
I have yet to discover any evidence whatsoever of a successful prosecution based on caravan noseweight so to my mind a quick lift of the hitch is as good a method as anything, at least if you can lift it the chances are that you won't exceed it by any significant amount.
Caravan weight is sometimes checked at the roadside by VOSA but they don't check noseweight. How many caravanners does anybody ever see checking their noseweight before hitching up after a break to head home?

 

[colin-yorkshire]

that is more or less my thinking on the subject Steve, although when I changed the car to the Meriva with 50kg tow ball limit, I did try different methods to see what variation there was so a quick check could be done if needed.
I first tried to lift the hitch by hand, and couldn't, so it must have been over 70kg, swopped a few things around until I could [just] and guessed it would be around 50/55kg, next tried the millenco NW gauge I had in the front box but hardly ever used. it showed the weight to be 53kg. then the bathroom scales on the caravan step 54kg, and finally a spring balance [the type used on overhead gantries] hung from the garage rafters,[should have been the most accurate] 52kg.

now not that it was a scientific experiment done under controlled conditions but it did show more or less that the difference was only 3kg , after moving the EHU from the box to the van, this dropped to 45kg, overall so within the limits of the tow bar,.

the conclusion I drew from this was that any of the above methods would do under normal circumstances even to lifting the hitch by hand, which became my prefered method while on the go, I can't really see why this should be an issue for some as the nose weight changes anyway while on the move, even if only slightly by using the toilet or a small amount of gas and water during pit stops.3kg is nothing really.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There seems to be a great emphasis on checking nose weight for some reason and although I wouldn't condone exceeding stated limits for your outfit, of much more importance from a safety aspect is overall weight and correct loading of caravans.
Too little nose weight can have and adverse effect on caravan stability but none of the methods described to measure noseweight here or anywhere else can be guaranteed to be accurate, including bits of wood and bathroom scales which are notoriously inaccurate to start with.
My guess is that the Reich version would be the best of a bad bunch but as the Prof pointed out, noseweight is not static when a caravan is moving along a road surface, it can and does vary greatly due to the relative angles of the hitch / A frame and the towbar/ towball so the best that we can achieve is a mean average.
I have yet to discover any evidence whatsoever of a successful prosecution based on caravan noseweight so to my mind a quick lift of the hitch is as good a method as anything, at least if you can lift it the chances are that you won't exceed it by any significant amount.
Caravan weight is sometimes checked at the roadside by VOSA but they don't check noseweight. How many caravanners does anybody ever see checking their noseweight before hitching up after a break to head home?

Hello Parksy,

I dont normally dispute postings with you, but your post is wrong in a number of ways.

Nose weight is determined by the way the caravan is loaded. Arguably it is more important to safety and stability than the overall weight of the trailer. I agree that too little nose weight is bad, but from a safety point of view it is equally bad (and illegal) to exceed the nose load limit of the combination. In doing so the magnification of the nose load due to accelerations induced by towing might exceed the hitches safety margins. All nose load measurements are taken statically so it eliminates any dynamic errors.

You say you don't condone exceeding stated limits, but unless you know how to measure the loads how do you know if you within limits? Lifting by hand is not a quality or quantifiable measurement system.

None of the retail measurements systems can offer meaningful calibration of nose weight measurement because unless they allow you to take the measurement at the hitches towing height the measurement will be inaccurate. The Reich device raises the hitch, and that means it is not actually measuring the nose load, and it cannot include any means to compensate accurately for the change in height.

All Gauges have inaccuracies, but bathroom scales will be more accurate than the compressive spring loaded nose load gauges available to caravanners.

The DVSA (Formerly VOSA) can check nose weights, it is within their remit and if exceeded they could (through the police) prosecute.

All I have done is to explain how to measure nose load correctly, in a way that conforms with the law and that will reduce errors and overloading. So why not encourage caravanners to do it correctly, and point out the errors and dangers of doing it incorrectly?

Oh and I used to check on every journey, and I have seen a few others doing on site before leaving but the majority don't.

 

[Dustydog]

In my case the suspension does sag a bit , in fact enough that when the Reich is fitted the caravan and hitch are pretty well level. Once measured and removed and correctly hitched the self leveling suspension kicks in and again all is level. Thus for me I have to say the Reich is probably giving a very accurate reading.

 

[Hutch]

Oh and I used to check on every journey, and I have seen a few others doing on site before leaving but the majority don't.[/quote]
Ah so you don't check on every trip !!!

 

[MichaelE]

I havent checked my nose weight since i've had my first twin axle , that must be over 12 years ago? My van tends to be the same all the time , never carry excess weight,no fluids and the front locker stays the same.
Experience tells me the van feels wrong.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Oh and I used to check on every journey, and I have seen a few others doing on site before leaving but the majority don't.

Ah so you don't check on every trip !!![/quote]

Incorrect. I no use a caravan.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I havent checked my nose weight since i've had my first twin axle , that must be over 12 years ago? My van tends to be the same all the time , never carry excess weight,no fluids and the front locker stays the same.
Experience tells me the van feels wrong.

12 years ago, and nothing has changed! I'll bet the over the years different members of your family will have added to odd item here of there, and I'd be pretty certain your nose weight will have changed over that time. And if the last line of your post is true then you should really do something about it

 

[ProfJohnL]

In my case the suspension does sag a bit , in fact enough that when the Reich is fitted the caravan and hitch are pretty well level. Once measured and removed and correctly hitched the self leveling suspension kicks in and again all is level. Thus for me I have to say the Reich is probably giving a very accurate reading.

Hello Dusty,
If what you have written is in fact what happens then I'm sorry but you are being fooled a little.

I hope you agree that the height of a hitch does affect the the resulting nose load, and that for a single axle caravan as the hitch height increases the nose load reduces. Twin axles are more complex and may not follow that simple cause and effect.

By using a Reich tow ball mounted nose load indicator, due to the height of the device it increases the height of the coupling to the trailer which means for a single axle trailer the actual nose load will be reduced because of its elevated hitch. This will be a few kg. I will guess it may be about 5kg.

So if you had trimmed your caravan to produce a real working height nose load of 75kg, the Reich extra height would only experience 70kg. According to Reich's literature the nose load indicator compensates for its height, and as it has no means of being programmed for the physical dimensions of the trailer I presume it will simply add a notional amount to its measured value. This could be a percentage of the reading or it might be a fixed value. Consequently when ever it measures an applied force its output reading will be inflated, so it will indicate 75kg when in fact it is only experiencing 70kg load.

Now if your self leveling suspension "sags" by the same height as the reich device (which is not an unreasonable amount) then when you measure your nose load with the device in the sagged position and you set you nose load to give a reading of 75kg, you must bear in mind the Reich will be reading 5kg higher, so in fact you have only got a nose load of 70kg.

 

[Gabsgrandad]

Sorry but it's this for me!

(PS- I do still have time for caravanning though!)

 

[Parksy]

Hello Parksy,

I dont normally dispute postings with you, but your post is wrong in a number of ways.

Nose weight is determined by the way the caravan is loaded. Arguably it is more important to safety and stability than the overall weight of the trailer. I agree that too little nose weight is bad, but from a safety point of view it is equally bad (and illegal) to exceed the nose load limit of the combination. In doing so the magnification of the nose load due to accelerations induced by towing might exceed the hitches safety margins. All nose load measurements are taken statically so it eliminates any dynamic errors.

You say you don't condone exceeding stated limits, but unless you know how to measure the loads how do you know if you within limits? Lifting by hand is not a quality or quantifiable measurement system.

None of the retail measurements systems can offer meaningful calibration of nose weight measurement because unless they allow you to take the measurement at the hitches towing height the measurement will be inaccurate. The Reich device raises the hitch, and that means it is not actually measuring the nose load, and it cannot include any means to compensate accurately for the change in height.

All Gauges have inaccuracies, but bathroom scales will be more accurate than the compressive spring loaded nose load gauges available to caravanners.

The DVSA (Formerly VOSA) can check nose weights, it is within their remit and if exceeded they could (through the police) prosecute.

All I have done is to explain how to measure nose load correctly, in a way that conforms with the law and that will reduce errors and overloading. So why not encourage caravanners to do it correctly, and point out the errors and dangers of doing it incorrectly?

Oh and I used to check on every journey, and I have seen a few others doing on site before leaving but the majority don't.

According to this report 87% of domestic bathroom scales tested by Lloyds pharmacy were inaccurate and there is no evidence to prove that bathroom scales are any more accurate than some of the caravan nose weight gauges offered for sale.
Nose weight measurement may be within the remit of DVSA but how many successful prosecutions for 'excessive or too little nose weight' do you know of?
Personally speaking I do use my Millenco nose weight gauge from time to time, usually at the storage area which is flat with plenty of wooden blocks around to raise my gauge to the correct height. and when we are ready to go away our portable goods, clothing, food etc goes into my 4x4 so any changes are minimal.
My point was that with such inaccurate measuring equipment, including bathroom scales which generally speaking are no more accurate than anything else, the person who uses the quick lift method would have as much clue as to the true figure as anybody else, at least he made some attempt to check which is more than the majority of caravanners do from what I've seen.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Steve,

The Lloyd's report found errors of up to 10% on the bathroom scales they tested. I don't claim that is good, it isnt, but it is better than the reports we have seen on this forum of nose weight gauges being up to +/-20kg out In addition the nose weight gauges fail to set the correct hitch height so they can be doubly out. Coupled to which you can actually check bathroom scale errors by using items with known weights such as 10kg bags of dog food or sand etc.

When used in the manner I have suggested bathroom scales will probably be three to four times more accurate and consistent than compressive spring nose load gauges.

I cannot quote any prosecutions for nose weight infringements but equally you can't infer that just because you have not found any that none have occurred. It could be they are extremely rare or just not reported. But the important fact is nose weight does have legal limits and we should be doing what we can to keep within the law.

Lifting by hand will never be accepted as a legal defence.

Incidentally the DVSA do not necessarily have to measure the nose load directly, it can be calculated from differential axle weights for coupled and uncoupled outfits.

 

[Dustydog]

Incidentally the DVSA do not necessarily have to measure the nose load directly, it can be calculated from differential axle weights for coupled and uncoupled outfits.
Read more at http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/general/52358-for-the-newbies?start=70#Rl3gAHxvlZTzvoS0.99

Prof.
Can this be done whilst touring?
Sadly I find in view of your comments my rusty old milenco spring nose weight guage is destined for the bin.The Reich seems no better so I'll ask for a refund.
The bathroom scales are inaccurate and heavy to take on tour, as is the steel
H frame designed by His Royal Woosieness.
It seems as a responsible well seasoned caravanner I am now reduced to kicking the tyres to check the pressures. Adding 3 feet of gas pipe to the wheel brace to torque up manually the wheel nuts. Feel is everything. And now I am returning to the good old tried and tested "pick it up physically" to see if the nose weight is okay. :evil: :S
Surely there are easier more accurate methods or guages hmy: :dry:
Forgive me for sounding cynical but most of us Forumites on here do take all these things seriously and realistically do our very best to ensure we are legal and safe. If what we are all doing is no good what chance has a Newbie got.

 

[MichaelE]

I havent checked my nose weight since i've had my first twin axle , that must be over 12 years ago? My van tends to be the same all the time , never carry excess weight,no fluids and the front locker stays the same.
Experience tells me the van feels wrong.

12 years ago, and nothing has changed! I'll bet the over the years different members of your family will have added to odd item here of there, and I'd be pretty certain your nose weight will have changed over that time. And if the last line of your post is true then you should really do something about it

In the last 12 years we have lost the 2 children and gained a dog, the front lockers stay the same as nothing is added as we really only caravan for long weekends now and sometimes do a week, extra items like awning, fridge are put in the car.
Orr main holidays are now fly away.
With 130kgs towbar weight we have plenty to play with and the time the van didn't feel right i had a slow puncture.

 

[Sproket]

Incidentally the DVSA do not necessarily have to measure the nose load directly, it can be calculated from differential axle weights for coupled and uncoupled outfits.

Having tried this method on a dynamic weigh bridge the difference was considerably larger than expected hmy: possibly due to the natural self levelling nature of the trucks suspension ..... By the way it was under by a large amount ..

 

[Raywood]

The courts do take into account efforts made by you to stay within the law. If you were able to show your nose weight gauge gave yo a false low reading it would be a defence to a prosecution, and might get you off, but would certainly get the punishment reduced.