Going Green isn’t easy

[otherclive]

Here is an interesting Gov website, I had never heard of Hybrid heat pumps before.
Gov website.

Hybrid heat pumps

I looked at various Fischer options that would allow us to cease using loft water tanks. There were quite a few quite different options with electric boilers, or heat storage water tanks but the limitations of the airing cupboard and water supply cropped up again, and I’m not ready for an all electric combi.

 

[Beachball]

When we moved into our bungalow we rip out the floor boiler it was condemmed in a week it was leaking gas and the water tank in the loft was next , and put a Intergas combi boiler with a remote setup . we now get hot water on demand and instant heating so far it works great .

 

[ProfJohnL]

When we moved into our bungalow we rip out the floor boiler it was condemmed in a week it was leaking gas ....

If your gas boiler is "condemned" which ever fitter made the declaration failed in their legal duty to isolate the appliance, and seal the gas supply to prevent any possible danger including future leaks.

 

[Dustydog]

If your gas boiler is "condemned" which ever fitter made the declaration failed in their legal duty to isolate the appliance, and seal the gas supply to prevent any possible danger including future leaks.

When my son was”on the tools” at BG it was a dismissal offence if a boiler like BB’s wasn’t disconnected and a Danger do not use etc sticker applied. In fact I believe the Gas Safe Certification demands the same level of safety and action.

 

[otherclive]

When my son was”on the tools” at BG it was a dismissal offence if a boiler like BB’s wasn’t disconnected and a Danger do not use etc sticker applied. In fact I believe the Gas Safe Certification demands the same level of safety and acti

Yes BG did that in my BIL house when we prepared it for sale as the lounge gas fire was old beyond belief with cracked ceramics.

 

[Beachball]

We contacted gas emergency and they came to our bungalow and checked the boiler and they Condemned and disconnected Danger do not use label on it because it was leaking through the main gas valve .
.

 

[Jcloughie]

BG renewed a main in my sisters street. When they turned the gas back on, each house had to be safety checked. They condemned my sister’s ornamental gas fire, (this was a long time ago). They told her, (very rudely), it was fitted very badly and that she should complain to whatever 2nd rate company who fitted it. She immediately found the receipt which shows it was fitted by British Gas. That left a rather embarrassed inspector.

John

 

[Beachball]

Also our gas fire was badly fitted in our bungalow the previous owner son had fitted it and that was condemned and disconnected Do not use label .

 

[Oscarmax]

In the budget the chancellor has now decided as from April 2028 to charge EV 3p per miles and PHEV 1.5p mile, so were is all the incentive to go green gone ?

On one hand they are giving grants to go EV, and other the other hand recuperate the incentive, I am confused.

 

[otherclive]

In the budget the chancellor has now decided as from April 2028 to charge EV 3p per miles and PHEV 1.5p mile, so were is all the incentive to go green gone ?

On one hand they are giving grants to go EV, and other the other hand recuperate the incentive, I am confused.

There is no confusion. You can buy certain EVs more cheaply with a grant. It’s no different to the deals years ago on reduced VED for low emissions ICE where there was scrappage grants. If you do the sums it’s still cheaper to run an EV or PHEV on fuelling compared to an ICE. It’s time to stop talking about incentives and recognise that tax revenues from fuel/energy have dropped because of higher efficiency ICE or small engines, and the low costs of charging electric vehicles whose numbers are increasing. Somebody’s “incentives” or “subsidy” means’s a taxpayer has to shell out. I think given the offers on electric vehicles and reduced running costs, plus the restricted choice now on ICE then motorists should make their own choice to suit their circumstances.

 

[RogerL]

In the budget the chancellor has now decided as from April 2028 to charge EV 3p per miles and PHEV 1.5p mile, so were is all the incentive to go green gone ?

On one hand they are giving grants to go EV, and other the other hand recuperate the incentive, I am confused.

EVs and PHEVs were never going to get a free ride forever by not paying fuel duty - the grants on purchase price and reduced BIK tax have been around long enough that it's time to start re-leveling the playing field.

Even with the mileage charge, EV/PHEVs are still cheaper to run than petrol/diesel so there should be no complaint.

It's being introduced over a long enough period that existing owners of EV/PHEV won't be affected if they change their cars at the usual time of 3 years.

 

[Oscarmax]

My understanding the EV grants were to protect UK build vehicle against Chinese subsidies EV vehicles, the government have decided to introduce EV 3p per mile, the Chinese car manufacture are now offering rebates to cover the EV 3p tariff.

 

[otherclive]

My understanding the EV grants were to protect UK build vehicle against Chinese subsidies EV vehicles, the government have decided to introduce EV 3p per mile, the Chinese car manufacture are now offering rebates to cover the EV 3p tariff.

If you look at Band 1 grants of £3750 of the 8 eligible cars only two are British built, the Mini Countryman, and Nissan Leaf . Of the Band 2 cars eligible for the £1500 grant none are Britsh built. So hardly a lifeline for the UK car industry, of which there's really precious little left. Even some Stellantis are made , guess where?

Electric and hybrid vehicles eligible for a plug-in grant

Check which new hybrid and electric vehicles (EV), including cars, vans, trucks and motorbikes, are eligible for a government plug-in grant.

www.gov.uk

 

[Jcloughie]

Just checked. The 1.5 p for hybrid cars only applies to plug in, not to mild hybrids.

Sigh of relief for me. It would have cost me £45-55 per year. 😏

John

 

[otherclive]

Just checked. The 1.5 p for hybrid cars only applies to plug in, not to mild hybrids.

Sigh of relief for me. It would have cost me £45-55 per year. 😏

John

A mild hybrid has so little electrical assist they cannot run on electric alone, unlike a normal hybrid.

What are mild hybrids and how do they work?

Hybrid cars are more popular than ever, especially the newest type, the mild hybrid. In this article, I explain what mild hybrids are, how they work, and if you should be considering one.

www.bumper.co

 

[Dustydog]

And never forget the decent man in the street who has paid fuel duty tax and road tax for decades with no discount.
Clive touched on it.
HMG need revenue from cars no matter what engine you have.
Anyone who thinks EVs will be permanently exempt is living in cuckoo land

 

[Hutch]

Just a thought, will all the council vehicles, that have gone to EV, also be charged by the mile, if it ever comes in. Or will they be exempt.

 

[ProfJohnL]

A mild hybrid has so little electrical assist they cannot run on electric alone, unlike a normal hybrid.

Please define a "Normal Hybrid"

I am led to believe the Pay Per Mile (PPM) will only apply to vehicles that can recharge their battery from a mains supply, in other words BEV or HPEV , so it excludes self charging hybrids, (Normal Hybrids?) which makes sense as self charging systems rely on power generated directlt from the use of fossil fuel or the motion of the vehicle which is only produced by fossil fuel used in the engine. They pay their fuel duty on all the energy they use to move the vehicle.

BEV's of course only use energy derived from mains supplies which have no fuel duty applied to teh tariff.

PHEV's are a compromise. They generally only have a small EV range only, and the rest of the energy is derived from a kinetic energy recovery through braking, and of course mains charging.

The PPM is clever approach, as for cost conscious PHEV users it encourages the driver to minimise the amount of petrol/diesel they use to avoid paying the fuel duty, by maximising the use of the battery.

Where this is less than ideal is for people who went for an early PHEV with a small battery and a very limited range, yet they have to do long journeys where the ICE has to provide the bulk of the power. The owner ends up paying Fuel duty, but also the PHEV PPM.

 

[otherclive]

Please define a "Normal Hybrid"

I am led to believe the Pay Per Mile (PPM) will only apply to vehicles that can recharge their battery from a mains supply, in other words BEV or HPEV , so it excludes self charging hybrids, (Normal Hybrids?) which makes sense as self charging systems rely on power generated directlt from the use of fossil fuel or the motion of the vehicle which is only produced by fossil fuel used in the engine. They pay their fuel duty on all the energy they use to move the vehicle.

BEV's of course only use energy derived from mains supplies which have no fuel duty applied to teh tariff.

PHEV's are a compromise. They generally only have a small EV range only, and the rest of the energy is derived from a kinetic energy recovery through braking, and of course mains charging.

The PPM is clever approach, as for cost conscious PHEV users it encourages the driver to minimise the amount of petrol/diesel they use to avoid paying the fuel duty, by maximising the use of the battery.

Where this is less than ideal is for people who went for an early PHEV with a small battery and a very limited range, yet they have to do long journeys where the ICE has to provide the bulk of the power. The owner ends up paying Fuel duty, but also the PHEV PPM.

If you read my post above at #240 it gives a good description mild hybrid.

Latest PHEV have an increased electric range compared to earlier cars, so your comment isn’t especially accurate.

 

[Oscarmax]

We are now seeing PHEV with 30kWh plus batteries

 

[Oscarmax]

Some of the earlier PHEV including the 2020 Mitsubishi Outlander 13.5kWh were by today's standard inefficient 28 miles on a good day 13 miles in the winter, plus the batteries tended to deteriorate. Modern PHEV like the Kia with the same size battery considerably more efficient.

 

[Yddraig]

God help you if you get a heat pump.
1) Lot more expensive to run than a gas heating system
2) A lot more costly to repair or replace in 10 years time
3) Dont believe the salesmans bullshit about COPs of 6+ ( they struggle to hit COPs 2 in the middle of winter. )
4) Try getting a quote for annual service compared to a gas service. ( will be 2 to 3 times dearer for the ashp )

 

[otherclive]

God help you if you get a heat pump.
1) Lot more expensive to run than a gas heating system
2) A lot more costly to repair or replace in 10 years time
3) Dont believe the salesmans bullshit about COPs of 6+ ( they struggle to hit COPs 2 in the middle of winter. )
4) Try getting a quote for annual service compared to a gas service. ( will be 2 to 3 times dearer for the ashp )

I guess that the Scandinavians/Germans etc have got it totally wrong then. I suspect that your comments are based on heat pumps installed into properties that basically were not suitable for them because of insulation levels, water supply constraints, internal system design for hot water and central heating, inadequate radiators etc.

How do you know a heat pump willl be more costly to replace in 10 years. Octopus give an expected 20 year life on theirs , Fischer 20 years., and Daikin 15-20 years. By then what price will gas boilers be as heat pump numbers increase and boiler numbers reduce. Heat pumps have all parts replaceable and most seem to be giving 7+ years warranty. Regarding servicing Homeserve quote £15pm for an annual service agreement. this is what a standard service consists of, not that dissimilar to a boiler service.

• An electrical safety check
• Check thermostat operation
• General visual inspection of the unit
• Refrigerant refill (if required)
• Check for leaks/pressures
• Cleaning filters and coils
• Check all large components such as the compressor, fan, and pump
• Lubricate moving parts
• Replacement of any small parts (i.e. seals/gaskets) as per the manufacturer’s guidelines

Your post is more emotive than objective and is quite ill-balanced with no demonstratable supporting facts. My view is that heat pumps do have valuable place in providing low carbon heat to homes and offices, but the overall system has to be designed and installed to achieve max benefit. Lastly perhaps in 15-20 years electricity prices will be in real terms lower than todays prices, and gas will have increased as governments plan to de-link electricity prices from world gas prices has success. This last weeks announcement is a step forwards. Perhaps we can actually look forward to not requiring heat pump or boilers and have all electric heating; Nirvhana.

 

[Gafferbill]

Harry has gone green but then he's got a bob or two....

Solar, heat pumps and wind generation

 

[JTQ]

I don't know why some are getting concerned about high servicing costs for heat pumps, they are basically just refrigeration plants used to cool the outside world and stuff the energy gleened there, plus their own operating energy, into a property.
The same technology as the basis of air conditioning, this is nothing new or challenging, just applied differently.

I in the 1950s worked on refrigeration plant both commercial cool rooms, commercial freestanding units and a few domestic ones, and even then the engineers had got the mechanics of these well sorted and rock solidly reliable.
In the intervening years I have never had a domestic refrigerators system fail, nor had to have one serviced. Failure has been the insulation foam disintegrating and Zamac alloy handle break, or door seal become denatured, no system failures at all. Together with been told she wants something newer not my work round fix.

Re heating our homes by far the biggest limitation is the very poor innate thermal insulation of our properties, a problem with heat pumps or any other heating system, too little of the energy we put into it stays in the property.

With heat pumps this means they need much bigger plants than we typically want to shell out for, and it seems too many contractors are prepared to sell inadequately specified systems, knowing "we" will not purchase at the inevitable cost involved in doing the system most older homes actually need.