Gordon Brown & The Budget

[giovanni_5060838]

You're not comparing like for like there Giovanni. You may get 3 times the mileage that Clive gets, but you are not driving a car that weights over 2 tonnes. Even then, take into consideration the savings on LPG fuel and the costs involved are not that different. When the Govt introduced lower priced LPG with a tax incentive to buy, they were looking for people exactly like Clive to convert, large petrol being the worse offenders. Before you ask, I drive a diesel and prefer them to petrol for day to day running. Problem is, you must have ice in your veins, if you can't appreciate the noise a V8 makes...

no the government were looking at all sectors to convert.

but alas very few have, apart from the larger less economical

vehicles. and this has lead to them being able to run these cars

on a more regular basis, therefore poluting MORE CO2,this was

not the intention, of this or any other government.

lol. i am comparing like with like, as its not me who makes the price comparison,to show how cheap it is. i just piont out that

to do the same journey on our roads i use a third of our resources,and never ever claim to be an environment friendly type.

 

[Lol1]

no the government were looking at all sectors to convert.

but alas very few have, apart from the larger less economical

vehicles. and this has lead to them being able to run these cars

on a more regular basis, therefore poluting MORE CO2,this was

not the intention, of this or any other government.

lol. i am comparing like with like, as its not me who makes the price comparison,to show how cheap it is. i just piont out that

to do the same journey on our roads i use a third of our resources,and never ever claim to be an environment friendly type.

True the offer was open to all, but the economics of installing the equipment meant it wasn't suitable for all. Why convert a small car that is already economical to run? In fact it would be a disaster to do so; the margins are less as the car gets heavier. A medium sized saloon would see a reasonable return if LPG was fitted, but it would also see a reasonable improvement if you drove the car a little slower. The only place where fitting LPG is a great idea is in a large car such as a 4x4. Here the extra weight of the conversion is less noticeable, the same goes for fitting the tank, as 4x4s and large luxury saloons quite often have plenty of boot space.

You may cover the same distance as Clive, Giovanni, getting 3 times the mileage, but that is not comparing like for like, your car cannot tow the same vans that Clive's does. Using your way of comparing, it would be easy for me to say I run a bicycle and get massively more miles than you do, in fact a don't use any petrol/diesel/LPG at all. If I cycle 10 miles and you drive 10 miles is that a fair comparison?

 

[giovanni_5060838]

lol, take your bicycle argument first, it would still be more

environment friendly, if u walked..........

and please don't take offence, but never expected such nonsence

fron u. you see my cousin had a gas conversion 23 years ago..

firstly on his fiat 105tc, and then the same kit was fitted to

his lancia beta 1600cc. small car argument doesn't hold up as

small cars hold their value better, and can take the weight,

god we are not talking citroen cv2s with 18bhp!

boot space argument! well remember the orion having a bigger boot

than the granada, so space isn't the obsticle.

as for being able to tow a larger van than me,if i need a bigger

vehicle for towing, i will get one that can. and i am sure i

will still not need such gas guzlers...

and lastly u still miss the piont i try to make, concerning

the environment, don't give 2 hoots if u drive a tank,just don't

like my intellegence insulted with silly propargander,to the

green issues.when the only people driving on lpg, have huge

uneconomical cars that still spew out vast amounts of co2

{ even more so than the government figures as they need to warm

up the engine to reach those figures,which can take over 8 miles

and while doing 7 or 8 times more polution than claimed}

but then try to make out its done in the name of the environment!

 

[mcghee]

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious but someone whos vehicle gets 15mpg already pays 3 times as much tax as someone whos vehicle gets 45mpg. So why are they being taxed again? It's another one of these bizarre rules like the reduced tax for smaller engined vehicles; a brand new 2ltr costs more to tax than an old 1300cc which burns as much oil as petrol. This budget, like most of government policy, seems to be about humouring the supporters rather than tackling the issues.

 

[Lol1]

Giovanni, I often spout nonsense, so no offence taken. I do stand by what I said though. You mentioned your cousin and his LPG conversion, what was his boot space like with a tank in it? The smaller the car, the bigger the compromise. I too have had an LPG equipped car that was 21 years ago and fitted to an Opel Rekord, so I do have experience of what it is like to own and run such a vehicle. You mentioned the boot space of the Orion, it was indeed cavernous, but if someone choose the Orion over the Escort then the boot and it's space would have been one of the primary reasons for picking that car, would that same person then want to fill it with a gas tank? I know you can get split tanks that don't take up space, but there you have an entirely different compromise.

And lastly, you could say it is more environmentally friendly to walk than it is to cycle, but the point still stands, if you are to compare Clive's Discovery/Range Rover with another vehicle it would be apt to compare it with the diesel equivalent. Now that would be a good debate.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Giovanni, I often spout nonsense, so no offence taken. I do stand by what I said though. You mentioned your cousin and his LPG conversion, what was his boot space like with a tank in it? The smaller the car, the bigger the compromise. I too have had an LPG equipped car that was 21 years ago and fitted to an Opel Rekord, so I do have experience of what it is like to own and run such a vehicle. You mentioned the boot space of the Orion, it was indeed cavernous, but if someone choose the Orion over the Escort then the boot and it's space would have been one of the primary reasons for picking that car, would that same person then want to fill it with a gas tank? I know you can get split tanks that don't take up space, but there you have an entirely different compromise.

And lastly, you could say it is more environmentally friendly to walk than it is to cycle, but the point still stands, if you are to compare Clive's Discovery/Range Rover with another vehicle it would be apt to compare it with the diesel equivalent. Now that would be a good debate.

not really as the v8, is indeed a good engine, somehow doubt

the tdis fitted to older range rovers and discoverys,are really

a true match allround.... and infact the newer tdis have less

torque, and smaller engines! which is quite strange really.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious but someone whos vehicle gets 15mpg already pays 3 times as much tax as someone whos vehicle gets 45mpg. So why are they being taxed again? It's another one of these bizarre rules like the reduced tax for smaller engined vehicles; a brand new 2ltr costs more to tax than an old 1300cc which burns as much oil as petrol. This budget, like most of government policy, seems to be about humouring the supporters rather than tackling the issues.

yes u have a piont there, but never the less in some countries

larger engined cars are taxed [road tax]a lot more heavier,

as they are usually far more expensive to buy!so its assumed

that the owners can afford to pay more

 

[Lol1]

not really as the v8, is indeed a good engine, somehow doubt

the tdis fitted to older range rovers and discoverys,are really

a true match allround.... and infact the newer tdis have less

torque, and smaller engines! which is quite strange really.

I ran an early V8 Rangy, Giovanni. Lovely sound, not that much go and way too much fuel for my wallet. Try looking at the latest Land Rover/Ford/Jaguar diesel, fitted to the Discovery. Quite an engine. Very much worthy of comparison.

 

[emmerson2]

no the government were looking at all sectors to convert.

but alas very few have, apart from the larger less economical

vehicles. and this has lead to them being able to run these cars

on a more regular basis, therefore poluting MORE CO2,this was

not the intention, of this or any other government.

lol. i am comparing like with like, as its not me who makes the price comparison,to show how cheap it is. i just piont out that

to do the same journey on our roads i use a third of our resources,and never ever claim to be an environment friendly type.

thank you for that bit of sense,lol. Gio is comparing oranges with apples, but it suits his argument to do so.Clive and I, and many thousands of others,know when we're well off! With regard to the proposed increase in duty on LPG, if Uncle Gordon increased it by 20%, we will still be in front.If he increased by 100%, then I've still had five years of very cheap 4x4 motoring.No further comment!

 

[MONKEY1]

Apart from the Vauxhall Astra and the Volvo range are there any cars sold in the UK with factory fitted Bi-fuel options??

MH

 

[mcghee]

I was told by a Vauxhall salesman that he hasn't sold a dual-fuel car for 4 years. I do know that the new Ford Transit will be available in LPG, which will offer a massive saving to anyone who runs a fleet. And as with all these things, once Ford have made a go of it everyone else will follow suit.

 

[CliveV]

Like I said Gio - utterly predictable!

Lol's reply says it all!

As for LPG's green credentials, it ALWAYS has been a green fuel, diesel has become greener because of technology and I am delighted with that. Any sensible person would be.

But if you ever travel to some parts of the world such as Africa, India (and I have to say Spain!) where unserviced diesels are used as daily transport, the particulate hydrocarbon pollution has to be seen to be believed.

Modern UK diesels are far far better, but they rely on technology to make AND KEEP them so.

LPG does not have to. It is inherently clean. That is why it is half the price of petrol and even cheaper than that in comparison to diesel.

Its inherent "Cleanness" is also the reason why the DTI funded the BOOSTLPG campaign for two years.

It is also the reason why the DTI via its Powershift scheme provides grants to owners of cars wishing to convert them to LPG to the tune of 80% of the cost of conversion.

As Lol says you (predictably) can only make your point work by comparing apples & oranges. My V8 motor is never going to compare well with a saloon.

But if I had a 1500cc car that did say 40mpg, and the cost of converting to LPG came out at about

 

[CliveV]

Hi MH

I think you will find Subaru well versed in the Powershift scheme and converting brand new cars. They are converted here in the UK prior to sale and their warranty is unaffected and the trade in price of an LPG converted Subaru is higher (for a directly comparable car of course)

Subaru do not have a diesel and so embraced the concept of LPG as an alternative.

Friends of ours rate them very highly. I certainly am impressed with the build quality, but am still a little put of by great expances of plastic in the cabin. But I read that they have improved on this on later models.

 

[CliveV]

clive v..."gio you are so predictable" do u have an issue with me, or is it just a case that u believe in ignoring the facts.

so now your mot tester is an interlect? and the black soot out

of a diesel is co2?

or rather because u can see it its worse than the stuff u cannot? yet the ten deadliest gasses are all invisable!

so tell me mr environmentalist, is your dicovery also lpg.?

and yes have u seen they will now start to close the gap on taxes

between lpg and petrol, cause the government can see that only

gas guzzlers took up the option, not the family saloon as they

so wished.

and u always go on about how u pay less for your fuel than anyone using other fossil fuels, which if u had a standard 2.0litre, that did 30 or 35 mpg,then i would be envious.

but i still get 3 times more mpg, than u. so u pay more to do

the same journey as me.....

Gio - your logic is flawed and you insist on reading things into my replies that simply are not there.

I never said soot was CO2

What I said was that my MOT tester simply made a comment that the CO2 emissions from my vehicle on LPG were considerably lower than smaller engined vehicles he tested.

As for my MOT tester being an "Intellect" - I assume you mean intellectual.

I cannot speak for his intellect but I have a few concerns about yours.

As for you last point where you state that because my engine is twice the size of yours - you use less fuel! - I think I should quote from that true intellectual - Basil Fawlty -

"You should go on Mastermind - Special Subject - The bleeding obvious

 

[cris_408518]

Futher to a telecon yesterday, I would like to ask advice and make comment.

If our Government ar truly worried about green issues to me I would have said some time ago that all car manufacturers would have to make cars compatible with LPG or make provision for them to be converted to LPG with no effect on warranties and servicing etc.

I was told yesterday of petrol vans that were bought quite new with low mileage and converted to run on gas. withgin around 20000 miles they had serious engine problems explained as being linked to running on gas without the additives that reduce engine wear!

My contact also spoke of a dealer,who when asked about a gas conversion, first warned that the engine would not last long (same sort of reason given) and to make sure the guy took it elsewhere for servicing and a gave a warning that no main dealer was likely to touch it and all warranties even those re rust would not be honoures as no dealer would go a gas conversion.

Another comment was re Diesel and gas conversions, where the LPG and diesel work together, the diesel still providing lubrication and wear additives to the engine. So all though not as clean in the long run it is a better option as engines will last longer than petrol LPG conversions.

I no little about these subjects so would like to hear what peoples experiences are and what they know of.

And again, if we have this gas alternative that is so clean why are the Governmant not making legislation to force manufacturers to use it, like wise if they are so interested in road safety why do they not legislate on things like ABS etc.

Re the gas I believe that they are just concerned about taking more money from us.

Why add to Car Tax when you could give grants and encourage people to convert to clean gas!

 

[CliveV]

Hi cris

Have a look at the Boostlpg website for more info. There are testimonials on that site from both individual and Fleet users of LPG. I think it has details of the firms and organisations that run LPG powered car/van Fleets as well.

Engines, properly set up of course will last longer on LPG because the oil stays cleaner.

However, you do need take into account that the LPG has a higher octane rating but a lower calorific value than petrol. This need to be taken into account.

So the plugs and timing need to be changed, though the later is now likely to be dealt with automatically by modern ecu's.

My local Independent Land Rover specialist - says that he does not like LPG because he is not licensed to deal with them and so looses business to a firm that is!

As for dealer warranties - many delayed offering LPG conversions initially but most car makers now recognise that via the powershift scheme it is a viable option.

Vauxhall were one of the first to embrace LPG and trained their techies so that they can service the LPG system at the same time as a normal service. Subaru were a notable second.

As for Gio's tired old point that nobody but us "Gas Guzzlers" bother with LPG, - Wiltshire County Council have a fleet of LPG powered Vauxhall small vans, that were provided by the local Vauxhall dealer. The vans have stickers on them that advertise the clean running of the vehicle.

The council seems happy with the reduced fuel costs!

The local Calor Gas Autogas supplier was delighted to get the fuel contract for the entire fleet!

The Vauxhall garage made a tidy profit on providing "green" vehicles and servicing them.

Load space is not affected because the tyres have the "goo" in them that stops them deflating in the event of a puncture and the spare wheel space now has a "Do-nut" LPG tank.

So in summary, any car can be successfully converted and the negative comments tend to be from dealers who have not invested in the training up of their technicians to handle LPG.

From a personal viewpoint, I bought my old Range Rover with 75K miles, had it converted to LPG and sold it with 177K miles. Never had a problem with it apart from normal consumables and I LOVED the fact that the oil remained clean between changes!

 

[emmerson2]

CliveV,there's nothing I can add to that.My first LPG Range rover was converted at 20000 miles.I bought it at 60000, and sold it at 130000, and it is still going well.I did once work out the saving in cash over that mileage.Can't remember it now, but it was a large sum! Still, as I sais earlier, we know when we're well off.

PS, one of our local councils runs LDV vans supplied ex-works with LPG.

 

[CliveV]

Yep - the differential will remain until 2009 it seems so we should be OK for a while yet.

I have seen that the Powershift Grant system seems to have run out of money. Proved too popular it seems. Now there is some kind of waiting list.

Seems like this Governments credentials regarding its care of the environment is as good as its care of the NHS.

Mind you I am lucky, as I use the vehicle for business, both my business mileage is offsetable against tax at 40p per mile (Great when that 40p buys a litre of fuel!) as well as the actual cost of conversion.

My vehicle is more than three years old so does not qualify for a grant - but still one heck of a saving!

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Like I said Gio - utterly predictable!

Lol's reply says it all!

As for LPG's green credentials, it ALWAYS has been a green fuel, diesel has become greener because of technology and I am delighted with that. Any sensible person would be.

But if you ever travel to some parts of the world such as Africa, India (and I have to say Spain!) where unserviced diesels are used as daily transport, the particulate hydrocarbon pollution has to be seen to be believed.

Modern UK diesels are far far better, but they rely on technology to make AND KEEP them so.

LPG does not have to. It is inherently clean. That is why it is half the price of petrol and even cheaper than that in comparison to diesel.

Its inherent "Cleanness" is also the reason why the DTI funded the BOOSTLPG campaign for two years.

It is also the reason why the DTI via its Powershift scheme provides grants to owners of cars wishing to convert them to LPG to the tune of 80% of the cost of conversion.

As Lol says you (predictably) can only make your point work by comparing apples & oranges. My V8 motor is never going to compare well with a saloon.

But if I had a 1500cc car that did say 40mpg, and the cost of converting to LPG came out at about

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Total confusion - I have read and heard conflicting reports regarding the new tax bands for motor vehicles. Is the new banding for new cars only or for all cars which will be taxed after April 1st.? I have a Daihatsu Fourtrack and a Peugeot Boxer 1.9litre TD motor home so presumabley I will be hit on both counts. Can anybody enlighten me regarding when this new banding is being introduced.

 

[anthonysharon]

my boss went to tax his car this morning its already gone up...

 

[cokey1970]

Colin, the new band G covers all vehicles registered on or after 23rd March 2006 and affects vehicles emitting over 225 g/km of carbon dioxide.

The changes to bands A to F affects vehicles registered on or after 1st March 2001.

You can find more info here.. http://www.dvla.gov.uk/vehicles/Changes_to_cost_of_vehicle_tax.htm

 

[joeby]

is there a list yet of what vehicle is in what catagory?

basically any vehicle over 2 litre 4x4 , people carriers ,vans ,large estates ,large saloons ,vans ,mini buses

 

[CliveV]

Like I said Gio - utterly predictable!

Lol's reply says it all!

As for LPG's green credentials, it ALWAYS has been a green fuel, diesel has become greener because of technology and I am delighted with that. Any sensible person would be.

But if you ever travel to some parts of the world such as Africa, India (and I have to say Spain!) where unserviced diesels are used as daily transport, the particulate hydrocarbon pollution has to be seen to be believed.

Modern UK diesels are far far better, but they rely on technology to make AND KEEP them so.

LPG does not have to. It is inherently clean. That is why it is half the price of petrol and even cheaper than that in comparison to diesel.

Its inherent "Cleanness" is also the reason why the DTI funded the BOOSTLPG campaign for two years.

It is also the reason why the DTI via its Powershift scheme provides grants to owners of cars wishing to convert them to LPG to the tune of 80% of the cost of conversion.

As Lol says you (predictably) can only make your point work by comparing apples & oranges. My V8 motor is never going to compare well with a saloon.

But if I had a 1500cc car that did say 40mpg, and the cost of converting to LPG came out at about

 

[CliveV]

yes clive what i expected, more of a serman than actual real

facts! i meam your qoute the reason why lpg is so much cheaper

than petrol is because its cleaner! bewildering, its only

cheaper for now, just like diesel was cheaper till it got popular.i don't care what people drive, but untill u drive a hybrid, quit giving sermans on the environment,just stick to

giving sermins on cost cutting..... cause there not the same

thing.......

Gio - you want everyone to listen to you but you seem incapable of doing ANY listening yourself.

LPG IS CHEAPER THAN PETROL AND DIESEL BECAUSE IT IS TAXED LESS!

IT IS TAXED LESS BBECAUSE IT IS A FAR CLEANER FUEL!!

ON A "PETROL" CAR CONVERTED TO RUN ON LPG YOU CAN QUITE LEGALLY REMOVE THE CATALYTIC CONVERTER!!!

Now for goodness sake get real and deal with it. Nobody is taking this personally exept you.

If you were not so easy to wind up - I would not do it!