Green? The tide may be turning!

[Dustydog]

Greenie or not the fact is parts of Europe went ”green” becoming totally reliant on Mr Putin’s gas.
Sadly Germany , Austria, France and the Netherlands have all announced plans to reactivate coal-fired power plants amid an energy crisis created by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
In theory if we open the three new oil/ gas fields we too like Norway can be “self sufficient”.

Last year BIL hired a barn conversion for holiday. The heat source pump was massive , contained in a n 8x4 shed. It took 24 hours to raise the temperature 1degC. Hot water rarely exceeded 50 deg. Thus the electric immersion water heater had heavy use.

I don’t think there is anyone on here who is naive enough not to understand green house gas syndrome. The only problem imo is our Energy leaders and Politicians got the timing wrong and left themselves exposed to supplies from outside the U.K. Angela Knight , our energy guru echoes this view. It’s all about the timing and lack of contingency plans.

 

[Tobes]

Just to support the argument that fossil is more expensive than non-fossil, take a look at this government paper from 2020, here. In particular, page 25 - levelized costs per MWh generated for projects coming on line in 2025.

Absolute cost for wind and solar is lower than that for gas. But in particular look at the proportion of the cost associated with fuel (gas). It's more than half.
From the same paper - next page (26), look at the variability of the costs. For gas plant - this is all down to the variability of the cost of gas.


Now - this study was published in 2020, before the energy crisis. The actual price of gas is now 3x what it was when this was carried out.

The plain and simple truth is that wind and solar are cheap and predictable, even if they are not always available. Having more of them, and siting them in different areas that have different prevailing conditions gives a spread of risk for generation, if it has to be backed up with nuclear, or gas or some other storage (hydro, hydrogen via ammonia - others), is a better bet than simply digging up more gas.

 

[Tobes]

Greenie or not the fact is parts of Europe went ”green” becoming totally reliant on Mr Putin’s gas.
Sadly Germany , Austria, France and the Netherlands have all announced plans to reactivate coal-fired power plants amid an energy crisis created by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
In theory if we open the three new oil/ gas fields we too like Norway can be “self sufficient”.

Last year BIL hired a barn conversion for holiday. The heat source pump was massive , contained in a n 8x4 shed. It took 24 hours to raise the temperature 1degC. Hot water rarely exceeded 50 deg. Thus the electric immersion water heater had heavy use.

I don’t think there is anyone on here who is naive enough not to understand green house gas syndrome. The only problem imo is our Energy leaders and Politicians got the timing wrong and left themselves exposed to supplies from outside the U.K. Angela Knight , our energy guru echoes this view. It’s all about the timing and lack of contingency plans.

Using gas for generation, over coal is not being "green". It's just not quite as bad as coal. Mostly, because with CCGT you have a more efficient generation kit than with raw thermal.
Norway are not self-sufficient in energy because they have gas, it's because they have hydro and geothermal. They just sell their gas to the rest of the world as a commodity resource.

Renewable energy flows through Norway

Norway is primarily powered by hydropower. Norwegian innovators are, however, also developing other renewables and the technology to make them work.

www.theexplorer.no

 

[otherclive]

Greenie or not the fact is parts of Europe went ”green” becoming totally reliant on Mr Putin’s gas.
Sadly Germany , Austria, France and the Netherlands have all announced plans to reactivate coal-fired power plants amid an energy crisis created by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
In theory if we open the three new oil/ gas fields we too like Norway can be “self sufficient”.

Last year BIL hired a barn conversion for holiday. The heat source pump was massive , contained in a n 8x4 shed. It took 24 hours to raise the temperature 1degC. Hot water rarely exceeded 50 deg. Thus the electric immersion water heater had heavy use.

I don’t think there is anyone on here who is naive enough not to understand green house gas syndrome. The only problem imo is our Energy leaders and Politicians got the timing wrong and left themselves exposed to supplies from outside the U.K. Angela Knight , our energy guru echoes this view. It’s all about the timing and lack of contingency plans.

Why are the Norwegian government providing support to consumers when the country is self sufficient and is a major exporter too? Because they can reap major profits from exports at world prices that more than compensate for the cost of subsidies to domestic consumers. Following your logic UK would need to be more than just self sufficient. But since there’s no shortage of energy just a massive price hike I’m at a loss to understand how self sufficiency would work in a free market.

 

[otherclive]

I hope that in this afternoon’s announcement as well as supporting consumers there are announcements on grants or incentives to reduce energy use, of which insulation is a key contributor both for the consumer and to aid achieving carbon neutral targets. I have been looking at options to improve our daughters house but there are precious few around at present. She would benefit by replacing her 10 year old condensing boiler, which was installed at no cost. Plus extra loft insulation would be beneficial as since the present insulation was fitted by a grant we have had breathable membrane fitted, so the loft could able to take another layer without risk of condensation.

 

[Tobes]

I hope that in this afternoon’s announcement as well as supporting consumers there are announcements on grants or incentives to reduce energy use, of which insulation is a key contributor both for the consumer and to aid achieving carbon neutral targets. I have been looking at options to improve our daughters house but there are previous few around at present. She would benefit by replacing her 10 year old condensing boiler, which was installed at no cost. Plus extra loft insulation would be beneficial as since the present insulation was fitted by a grant we have had breathable membrane fitted, so the loft could able to take another layer without risk of condensation.

Since April, there is 0% VAT on energy saving or generating improvements. That eases the burden somewhat, but a further grant would be welcome.

Energy-saving materials and heating equipment (VAT Notice 708/6)

How to account for VAT if you’re a contractor or subcontractor installing energy-saving materials and grant-funded heating equipment.

www.gov.uk

 

[Dustydog]

I hope that in this afternoon’s announcement as well as supporting consumers there are announcements on grants or incentives to reduce energy use, of which insulation is a key contributor both for the consumer and to aid achieving carbon neutral targets. I have been looking at options to improve our daughters house but there are previous few around at present. She would benefit by replacing her 10 year old condensing boiler, which was installed at no cost. Plus extra loft insulation would be beneficial as since the present insulation was fitted by a grant we have had breathable membrane fitted, so the loft could able to take another layer without risk of condensation.

A major theme this morning from both sides is the U.K. must be “self supporting “ and not reliant on others for U.K. energy. All in Hansard😉

 

[otherclive]

A major theme this morning from both sides is the U.K. must be “self supporting “ and not reliant on others for U.K. energy. All in Hansard😉

Then renewables and nuclear as neither are affected by global price of oil or gas. There’s plenty of gas around it’s just the price that’s wrong. I don’t believe that the collective in Parliament have much strategic vision.

 

[Jcloughie]

I hope that in this afternoon’s announcement as well as supporting consumers there are announcements on grants or incentives to reduce energy use, of which insulation is a key contributor both for the consumer and to aid achieving carbon neutral targets. I have been looking at options to improve our daughters house but there are precious few around at present. She would benefit by replacing her 10 year old condensing boiler, which was installed at no cost. Plus extra loft insulation would be beneficial as since the present insulation was fitted by a grant we have had breathable membrane fitted, so the loft could able to take another layer without risk of condensation.

Although insulation is a no brainer and extremely important. Installing it in existing housing stock is always going to be limited in its effectiveness as they were not constructed with much opportunity. Loft insulation is normally an easy option and a big saving. Cavity insulation can be effective but is not always recommended and nowhere near as much as built in. Cavity sealing can be an easy gain. Though very many still do not have a cavity. Rooms are too small to insulate internally and insulating externally (the better option). Is expensive and gives lots of added complictions. Double glazing is great. As is draught proofing. Along with insulating we need to consider damp, condensation, air changes co2 build up.

Recently the above was stated by a insulating expert who explained that most had already brought their properties up to near its potential. Governments have been slow to improve building regs to improve the standard of new build as whatever they do may force prices up beyond peoples reach. I worked on new build in Germany in the 70’s and we were building in cavity and underfloor insulation. Pressurised heating systems were the norm then and we were still saying they were too dangerous.

I was still finding I needed to educate ‘proffesional’ builders until I retired into the mechanics of how a cavity wall functions. Having said that, I am pleased to say that standards of construction and design have greatly improved. But many of us, myself included, live in poorly constructed 70’s boxes.

Some will know that with enough space and money we can build self sufficient houses.

John

 

[otherclive]

Although insulation is a no brainer and extremely important. Installing it in existing housing stock is always going to be limited in its effectiveness as they were not constructed with much opportunity. Loft insulation is normally an easy option and a big saving. Cavity insulation can be effective but is not always recommended and nowhere near as much as built in. Cavity sealing can be an easy gain. Though very many still do not have a cavity. Rooms are too small to insulate internally and insulating externally (the better option). Is expensive and gives lots of added complictions. Double glazing is great. As is draught proofing. Along with insulating we need to consider damp, condensation, air changes co2 build up.

Recently the above was stated by a insulating expert who explained that most had already brought their properties up to near its potential. Governments have been slow to improve building regs to improve the standard of new build as whatever they do may force prices up beyond peoples reach. I worked on new build in Germany in the 70’s and we were building in cavity and underfloor insulation. Pressurised heating systems were the norm then and we were still saying they were too dangerous.

I was still finding I needed to educate ‘proffesional’ builders until I retired into the mechanics of how a cavity wall functions. Having said that, I am pleased to say that standards of construction and design have greatly improved. But many of us, myself included, live in poorly constructed 70’s boxes.

Some will know that with enough space and money we can build self sufficient houses.

John

We have cavity foam beads installed just before we bought the house in 2019 and since moving in all windows and doors have been replaced, as they were circa 1986 and some were misting. It made a big difference and security is also improved. The loft is fully insulated with glass wool and has a breathable membrane.

Re existing properties and the limitations and/cost of insulation new tenancies from 2025 will need to be EPC C or better. Existing tenancies have to meet the standard by 2028.
I seriously think that there are an awful lot that will not meet the standards whether private or social tenancies. I think HMG have placed an expenditure cap per premises of £10k which could either drive up rents even higher or lead to landlords off loading properties back onto the private ownership market.

 

[Beachball]

The new MG 4 looks to be just that. Starting at 25k for a golf sized car, or 28K in the long range version - over 250 miles range, and 10K cheaper than the VW equivalent, with a 7 year warranty to boot.

i look at this it a nice car but would not suit my needs (Sadly)

 

[otherclive]

i look at this it a nice car but would not suit my needs (Sadly)

Try a BYD Tang SUV………joking but nice.

Elektroautos, Sedans und SUVs I BYD Deutschland

BYD has developed blade battery, electronic platform 3.0 and dual-mode hybrid technology for electric cars, giving full play to the advantages of intelligence, efficiency, safety and beauty brought by electrification to electric cars.

bydauto.eu

 

[Beachball]

Try a BYD Tang SUV………joking but nice.

Elektroautos, Sedans und SUVs I BYD Deutschland

BYD has developed blade battery, electronic platform 3.0 and dual-mode hybrid technology for electric cars, giving full play to the advantages of intelligence, efficiency, safety and beauty brought by electrification to electric cars.

bydauto.eu

Hi Clive just had a look that looks great

 

[woodsieboy]

Maybe the government is happy with higher energy prices, they collect more Vat, and the same with petrol/diesel,maybe they think the excessive prices will force consumers to use less, and move the country nearer to a reduction in energy usage, and less emissions,without a corresponding drop in tax revenue from the price pre increase.

 

[otherclive]

Maybe the government is happy with higher energy prices, they collect more Vat, and the same with petrol/diesel,maybe they think the excessive prices will force consumers to use less, and move the country nearer to a reduction in energy usage, and less emissions,without a corresponding drop in tax revenue from the price pre increase.

Certainly the price of petrol and diesel has led to an overall decrease in driving. But the price hikes in energy are proportionally far greater and affect a wider cross section of the community. I’ve lost count if the times we have followed advice and reduced our thermostat by 1 degree C. If it wasn’t for the warmer weather we would both be suffering hyperthermia but the boiler would be off ☹

 

[ProfJohnL]

....

Last year BIL hired a barn conversion for holiday. The heat source pump was massive , contained in a n 8x4 shed. It took 24 hours to raise the temperature 1degC. Hot water rarely exceeded 50 deg. Thus the electric immersion water heater had heavy use...

If the air heat system was raising the water to 50C, then in practice it's probably providing about 75% of the building's heating needs, so the immersion heaters were actually having fairly light usage.

It may be slow to respond, but that reflects the design of the system rather than the principle of operation.

 

[Dustydog]

Boring myself reading the latest PCv. Bailey will become 100% renewable energy users next month👏👏 Anyone else gone for it. Is it cheaper or dearer?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Boring myself reading the latest PCv. Bailey will become 100% renewable energy users next month👏👏 Anyone else gone for it. Is it cheaper or dearer?

I haven't seen the article so I can't comment on that specific situation, But it will will depend on how they are being supplied with the energy.

Its entirely possible for a business (or a home) to have solar panels or other renwable energy sources and to use or store the energy for some specific local application without it being connected to the grid. In those circumstances the energy produced would not incur the market value costs.

 

[Buckman]

Last year BIL hired a barn conversion for holiday. The heat source pump was massive , contained in a n 8x4 shed. It took 24 hours to raise the temperature 1degC. Hot water rarely exceeded 50 deg. Thus the electric immersion water heater had heavy use.

A couple of years ago we had an acquaintance that bought a barn conversion. Not even 2 years after purchase he was looking at selling it as heating the barn during the winter was costing a small fortune. I am fairly sure it was electric heating and not gas, but whether air source or not I do not know. It was a very nice barn conversion with all the mod cons.

 

[Dustydog]

I haven't seen the article so I can't comment on that specific situation, But it will will depend on how they are being supplied with the energy.

Its entirely possible for a business (or a home) to have solar panels or other renwable energy sources and to use or store the energy for some specific local application without it being connected to the grid. In those circumstances the energy produced would not incur the market value costs.

It’s on page 55. Maybe a Mod could post it? I quote ,” The manufacturer is to specify a mix of wind, hydro and solar power for all three sites”.

 

[Tobes]

Boring myself reading the latest PCv. Bailey will become 100% renewable energy users next month👏👏 Anyone else gone for it. Is it cheaper or dearer?

Depends what you mean. I have been with energy retailers who provide 100% green electricity for years. They have been as cheap as anything else. Cheaper in the last 18 months.

 

[Dustydog]

Depends what you mean. I have been with energy retailers who provide 100% green electricity for years. They have been as cheap as anything else. Cheaper in the last 18 months.

I didn’t know this. Are they cheaper? Any recommendations?

 

[Tobes]

I didn’t know this. Are they cheaper? Any recommendations?

I used to use outfox the market. I now use Octopus energy. Moving right now today might not save anything as most retailers variable rate price cap is the limit. But it depends on your specific circumstances. For example, can you load shift and how much do you use?
I have a smart meter, so time of use tariffs are available. I also have solar and a battery, so load shift my usage from day rates to cheap (and Green ) overnight rates. Octopus have a referral scheme if you join. I thin there are charitable collectors of the referrer end if you are interested.

 

[Buckman]

Depends what you mean. I have been with energy retailers who provide 100% green electricity for years. They have been as cheap as anything else. Cheaper in the last 18 months.

However 100% for sure you probably only got about 10% green energy like everyone else as it is all fed into the National grid?

 

[otherclive]

However 100% for sure you probably only got about 10% green energy like everyone else as it is all fed into the National grid?

Yes but the Green generators are smart enough to know what they feed in and what their customers take out. Please give some credit to the intelligence of some who are trying to meet the challenge of climate change.