Green? The tide may be turning!

[Dustydog]

Never mind BEV or PHEV most people in my locus can’t afford their energy for this winter never mind a new car🥲🥲.

I see the new PM and her colleagues are intent on reopening/ developing three gas / oil fields in the N Sea and Shetlands . Maybe she will try and buck the pricing sysyem🤪🤪

As a matter of interest do you guys think it is OK to support the Chinese car Industry, a Country generating more pollution than most🤔🤔

 

[otherclive]

The new MG 4 looks to be just that. Starting at 25k for a golf sized car, or 28K in the long range version - over 250 miles range, and 10K cheaper than the VW equivalent, with a 7 year warranty to boot.

We considered such when deciding to let the Forester go, although our original plan was to go to one car in 2025 when the Kia Rio came out of warranty etc. I explained in another thread how I concluded that now was a good time to change the Forester. But went for a petrol model Kia Xceed as I felt that between now and 2025 or there abouts the choice of affordable new or pre owned BEV will be so much greater. The Rio or Xceed are pretty economical to run both regarding petrol and servicing. A service plan for years 2 and 3 on the Xceed cost substantially less than the Foresters year 1 service in 2015!!

So I look forwards to a BEV whilst still pursuing Plan A, albeit modified a bit. 🤞🏼

 

[otherclive]

Never mind BEV or PHEV most people in my locus can’t afford their energy for this winter never mind a new car🥲🥲.

I see the new PM and her colleagues are intent on reopening/ developing three gas / oil fields in the N Sea and Shetlands . Maybe she will try and buck the pricing sysyem🤪🤪

As a matter of interest do you guys think it is OK to support the Chinese car Industry, a Country generating more pollution than most🤔🤔

You drive a car manufactured by one of the largest supporters of Chinese manufacture and who have had future government loan support withdrawn until they come clean on their activities in the area where the Uighars are being suppressed.

On the subject of pollution in China my reply would be “yes” given their substantial efforts to decarbonise. As we are finding it cannot be done overnight and reopening/developing new fields here will not reduce the price of oil or gas on the world market, and somewhat undermines your argument against China.

 

[Dustydog]

I thought my VW was mostly European built in Slovakia with Euro parts?

SWMBO Kia , thanks to Hyundai have one of the worlds most modern environmentally clean factories.
Kia say:
We will be 100% powered by renewable energy at overseas sites by 2030 and at domestic sites in Korea by 2040. To speed up our transition to clean energy, we will establish solar energy generating systems at our manufacturing plants in Korea, China, the United States, and India.
I‘ll stand corrected but thought the Chinese and Indian factories were not for export whereas USA and S Korea are.

 

[otherclive]

I thought my VW was mostly European built in Slovakia with Euro parts?

SWMBO Kia , thanks to Hyundai have one of the worlds most modern environmentally clean factories.
Kia say:
We will be 100% powered by renewable energy at overseas sites by 2030 and at domestic sites in Korea by 2040. To speed up our transition to clean energy, we will establish solar energy generating systems at our manufacturing plants in Korea, China, the United States, and India.
I‘ll stand corrected but thought the Chinese and Indian factories were not for export whereas USA and S Korea are.

VW have been building several models in China for some years, and they are exported to the Asia Pacific region. Your VW is mostly European but i was referring to VWs ethos, as amply demonstrated along with other manufacturers wrt Dieselgate.

This article might help understand the wider implications of China’s energy mix and the graphs can be used to input other countries for comparisons.

China: Energy Country Profile

China: Many of us want an overview of how much energy our country consumes, where it comes from, and if we’re making progress on decarbonizing our energy mix. This page provides the data for your chosen country across all of the key metrics on this topic.

ourworldindata.org

 

[ProfJohnL]

You drive a car manufactured by one of the largest supporters of Chinese manufacture and who have had future government loan support withdrawn until they come clean on their activities in the area where the Uighars are being suppressed.

I do not condone any sort of racial harassment or worse, and whilst we should bring appropriate pressure to bear to help the unfortunates. It's the prerogative of the individual to decide if they want to purchase goods made in any particular country, based on whatever criteria they may choose. But it might also be worth considering the way the British Empire was created. Those in glass houses should not throw stones.

As a matter of interest do you guys think it is OK to support the Chinese car Industry, a Country generating more pollution than most🤔🤔

Our own history and the industrial revolution, we were "makers to the world" and black country is a testament to the long term damage uncontrolled pollution can cause. The main difference is we did not have a plan to decarbonise, where as the Chinese do.

When you also consider the population of China is over 1.5 billion, Almosy 20% of the worlds population its hardly surprising they do produce more emmisions than we do as a nation.

In fact the Chinese are actually doing quite well at removing ICE vehicles from their cities, they have some very large public transport projects which are far in advance of our own.

 

[Dustydog]

Very true Prof but I for one will not destroy the Colston statue . Ironically a high number of Tesla’s are made in China and imported here. The real question is with our latest knowledge should we continue to support those that flagrantly pollute? I can’t change anything 😢

 

[Hutch]

Our energy bills are normally quite manageable like this last month it was £43 for gas and electric. Our direct debit since April 2021 has been £80pm and we’ve never been in negative territory.

I don't think there is anything like an average "power consumption" I have our gas on for heating just water for 1 1/2 hours a day, a day at present and that costs us £55 a month Electric is another £100 . Electric will not vary but gas will when we need winter heating.
4 bedroom house, good insulation, all lights led, with Bulb, power supplier.

 

[PTA]

I do not condone any sort of racial harassment or worse, and whilst we should bring appropriate pressure to bear to help the unfortunates. It's the prerogative of the individual to decide if they want to purchase goods made in any particular country, based on whatever criteria they may choose. But it might also be worth considering the way the British Empire was created. Those in glass houses should not throw stones.



Our own history and the industrial revolution, we were "makers to the world" and black country is a testament to the long term damage uncontrolled pollution can cause. The main difference is we did not have a plan to decarbonise, where as the Chinese do.

When you also consider the population of China is over 1.5 billion, Almosy 20% of the worlds population its hardly surprising they do produce more emmisions than we do as a nation.

In fact the Chinese are actually doing quite well at removing ICE vehicles from their cities, they have some very large public transport projects which are far in advance of our own.

All true..but, on the broader political front, we have learned that imperialism was wrong and wholly immoral. I'm not convinced that the current Chinese regime shares the same perspective.

 

[Hutch]

When I bought a new "In mirror repeater indicator " for my Hyundai, Original Equipment, it was made in China.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I personally do not think this forum is the place to debate the politics of countries. So I will not engage further on that aspect. I would encourage others to refrain, as if it continues its likely to get the thread closed.

 

[Dustydog]

I personally do not think this forum is the place to debate the politics of countries. So I will not engage further on that aspect. I would encourage others to refrain, as if it continues its likely to get the thread closed.

I understand. But surely all our posts, yours too were reasonably factual?

 

[ProfJohnL]

My concern was not about facts, but more about the way individuals may choose to take sides.

 

[Buckman]

I don't think there is anything like an average "power consumption" I have our gas on for heating just water for 1 1/2 hours a day, a day at present and that costs us £55 a month Electric is another £100 . Electric will not vary but gas will when we need winter heating.
4 bedroom house, good insulation, all lights led, with Bulb, power supplier.

We have air source heating which is electric so we are going to get hit really hard this winter as I can see our bill being close to £400 or more a month over the winter! Last year during summer it was about £80, but in winter months it went up to about £130. Air source is supposed to be environmentally friendly and it comes at one helluva cost. Bring back coal fire and gas stations!

 

[otherclive]

We have air source heating which is electric so we are going to get hit really hard this winter as I can see our bill being close to £400 or more a month over the winter! Last year during summer it was about £80, but in winter months it went up to about £130. Air source is supposed to be environmentally friendly and it comes at one helluva cost. Bring back coal fire and gas stations!

Nearly 50% of our energy generation is from gas fired power stations. Why would you want more given its susceptibility to global/ political price hikes such as we, and other countries, are now facing? Not to say its effect on global warming.

This mornings chart in GMT

 

[Buckman]

Nearly 50% of our energy generation is from gas fired power stations. Why would you want more given its susceptibility to global/ political price hikes such as we, and other countries, are now facing? Not to say its effect on global warming.

If we had our own gas supplies from North sea instead of relying on gas from foreign countries, we would not be in this mess and subject to fluctuating prices.

Mainly because of the greenies, many people in this country will be suffering this winter as will not be able to afford to cook their meals, have heating or hot water! I doubt if those people who will be suffering will give a toss about the global warming myth.

I am all for cleaning up the environment, but whether you have coal fire, gas or nuclear stations the greenies will object and make the majority suffer.

 

[otherclive]

If we had our own gas supplies from North sea instead of relying on gas from foreign countries, we would not be in this mess and subject to fluctuating prices.

Mainly because of the greenies, many people in this country will be suffering this winter as will not be able to afford to cook their meals, have heating or hot water! I doubt if those people who will be suffering will give a toss about the global warming myth.

I am all for cleaning up the environment, but whether you have coal fire, gas or nuclear stations the greenies will object and make the majority suffer.

There’s no evidence for that whatsoever unless you nationalised the production or capped prices. What company is going to invest in such an enterprise. Surely the aim has to be to move away from fossil fuels. I yearn for a return to our first house where we had electrical panel heating installed. Efficient and flexible minimal maintence. But with hindsight not such a good idea though in the early 1970s.

 

[Tobes]

If we had our own gas supplies from North sea instead of relying on gas from foreign countries, we would not be in this mess and subject to fluctuating prices.

Mainly because of the greenies, many people in this country will be suffering this winter as will not be able to afford to cook their meals, have heating or hot water! I doubt if those people who will be suffering will give a toss about the global warming myth.

I am all for cleaning up the environment, but whether you have coal fire, gas or nuclear stations the greenies will object and make the majority suffer.

But BM. That’s exactly what we have! Almost all the gas we use comes from the North Sea! We buy a small percentage (with a very high price) from Norway. But gas is an international commodity. It’s price is set independent of where it comes from. Burning more gas makes the electricity more expensive!!! Not less. This price peak is not about a local lack of electricity, or about a local lack of gas to generate electricity. It’s an artificial price, caused by a shortage of gas somewhere else. No amount of digging up coal, or oil or gas will bring prices down.
What is needed is energy market reform, to allow the dissociation ofelectricity prices from gas prices. And to do that we need more renewable(low cost, localy secure) generation that is not subject to international market prices (like gas and coal and oil).

This is nothing to do with climate change, and everything to do with economics. Blaming the one group who are advocating for the way to solve this issue with a derogatory term is the ultimate irony.

 

[otherclive]

But BM. That’s exactly what we have! Almost all the gas we use comes from the North Sea! We buy a small percentage (with a very high price) from Norway. But gas is an international commodity. It’s price is set independent of where it comes from. Burning more gas makes the electricity more expensive!!! Not less. This price peak is not about a local lack or electricity, or about a local lack of gas to generate electricity. It’s an artificial price, caused by a shortage of gas somewhere else. No amount of digging up coal, or oil or gas will bring prices down.
What is needed is energy market reform, to allow the dissociation ofelectricity prices from gas prices. And to do that we need more renewable(low cost, localy secure) generation that is not subject to international market prices (like gas and coal and oil).

This is nothing to do with climate change, and everything to do with economics. Blaming the one group who are advocating for the way to solve this issue with a derogatory term is the ultimate irony.

It’s interesting that the Norwegian government is giving assistance to households and businesses despite the country being self sufficient in gas and supported by hydro ( drought notwithstanding) yet the producers are bound by legislation that aligns them with commercial prices. But Norway has a mix I of state and commercial enterprise which supports the sovereign wealth fund.

 

[Buckman]

This is nothing to do with climate change, and everything to do with economics. Blaming the one group who are advocating for the way to solve this issue with a derogatory term is the ultimate irony.

Actually it has a lot to do with the greenies forcing up costs with their actions. At present unfortunately there is no way this country of ours is able to go carbon free for the next hundred years even at an accelerated pace, never mind in 8 years time!

 

[Tobes]

Actually it has a lot to do with the greenies forcing up costs with their actions. At present unfortunately there is no way this country of ours is able to go carbon free for the next hundred years even at an accelerated pace, never mind in 8 years time!

Sorry BM, but the 1st part of your statement is just plain wrong. There is nothing in the green agenda that has caused this spike, as much as your personal grievances might like to blame that “group”. Todays costs are a direct result of being nationally reliant on gas for peak generation , international gas price, lack of gas storage (an economic not ideological choice), and a market based on the resale sale of electricity for a flat fee.
Each of those elements need to be addressed, and doing so in a climate friendly manner is lower cost and more effective than any other.
Folks calling for lower cost, renewable generation, or retail peak / trough pricing to influence behaviour are part of the solution, not the problem.
As for carbon free in 8 years. Who’s agenda is that??? The Uk is planning to go carbon neutral in 2050, not 2030. The only target for 2030 is to end the sale of new combustion engines.
And given a carbon neutral economy is CHEAPER for the consumer than a fossil based one, why would you even care?

 

[ProfJohnL]

We have air source heating which is electric so we are going to get hit really hard this winter as I can see our bill being close to £400 or more a month over the winter! Last year during summer it was about £80, but in winter months it went up to about £130. Air source is supposed to be environmentally friendly and it comes at one helluva cost. Bring back coal fire and gas stations!

Air source heating is when its set up and used correctly a far more efficient way to provide space heating, as the Coefficient of Performance (CoP) of the systems is greater than 1 and often up to 2 to 4 depending on circumstances. This means for every kWh of electricity you use on your air source system, you actually get typically twice to four times the power as heat into the home.

The CoP is does vary depending on environmental conditions, but it should on average be above 1. As long as your actual CoP is over 1, you are are actually winning!

There is always a difference in power used for heating across the year, so comparing the energy you use during summer the winter months are always going to look grim.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...

I am all for cleaning up the environment, but whether you have coal fire, gas or nuclear stations the greenies will object and make the majority suffer.

Perhaps the majority now accept and agree with the need to reduce greenhouse gasses? So its the minority who like you object to the world trying to save itself.

 

[otherclive]

Actually it has a lot to do with the greenies forcing up costs with their actions. At present unfortunately there is no way this country of ours is able to go carbon free for the next hundred years even at an accelerated pace, never mind in 8 years time!

The target for carbon neutral is not in 8 years time it is 2050.

 

[Buckman]

Perhaps the majority now accept and agree with the need to reduce greenhouse gasses? So its the minority who like you object to the world trying to save itself.

You are always so right!