I'd love a 4x4, but which one

[giovanni_5060838]

giovanni

Morning Gio

I am not trying to be difficult here but you do seem to delight in posting responces on odd places and quoting out of context. Your reply to me via Rob_Jax is hardly easy to spot - BUT I DID IT!!!

In that you quote a single line out of context - the whole point of my earlier posting was to indicate that the Panda 4x4 is a VERY good vehicle! Whe are you reading it diferently to anyone else?

Bizarre!

As for your actual reply:-

7 Dec 2005 08:42 AM

clive v,you bewilder me! such wit,what is it with you,

can you not answer a straight forward question?

is it too straight forward for you?

i asked a civil question,if you do not want to respond...fine

i will just remember that you are. infra dignitatem.....

I did reply 5th Dec 3:55pm - in what I consider to be the right place.

Finally - do we really have to have those that do not like 4x4's to constantly try to find fault with what those of us who like 4x4's say?

You really must have excess time on your hands Gio if you feel the need to trawl thro the postings as you have done. But if you feel the need - you carry on my friend - just do not quote out of context - the results will "bite you" as the original wording and actual meaning is available for all toi see.

Best Wishes

clive, it should be quite clear to you,that i posted on the wrong

thread by accident?

haven't posted in a while, so don't understand your claims,

either being anti 4x4, when i defend a panda 4x4? or trawling

through post? i can only assume that the trawling through posts

is something you have far more time to do,as like i said in the last

couplle of weeks i have posted 6 times.

chill out man.....

 

[giovanni_5060838]

LPG is for some strange reason, attracting the attention of the anti's as not such a clean fuel as first thought. Obviously they are worried that we might be able to run our beloved larger engined vehicles cheaper and with less emissions which must really catch in their craw. More disinformation as usual, as my mate's LPG Rangey comes out at almost zero emissions even with the cats removed! It doesn't get much cleaner than that!!

All the Landy forums have much useful info, the two I frequent the most being www.lr4x4.com and www.landroveraddict.com being a Mod on them.

GMC engines are a tad noisy and are definitely drivetrain destroyers even driven gently. They are not particularly reliable within their home country either apparently. A mate lives in Canada reckons that they are always breaking down over there. Have a look at this motor belonging to a club member:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cattermole/photo2301.htm
It's got a Jimmy in it, lifting centre axle and steering rear axle and manages to get it around a fair bit of our offroad site..

fact is, and nothings changed to disprove it,is

petrol has higher co2,co and hc emissions than diesel.

however it has lower nox,so2 and particulates.

lpg, has lower co and co2,than petrol but higher nox.

in comparison with diesel,lpg has lower nox and particulates

but higher emissions of co and hc. so which poisons were you

refurring to.?

 

[CliveV]

giovanni

Morning Gio

I am not trying to be difficult here but you do seem to delight in posting responces on odd places and quoting out of context. Your reply to me via Rob_Jax is hardly easy to spot - BUT I DID IT!!!

In that you quote a single line out of context - the whole point of my earlier posting was to indicate that the Panda 4x4 is a VERY good vehicle! Whe are you reading it diferently to anyone else?

Bizarre!

As for your actual reply:-

7 Dec 2005 08:42 AM

clive v,you bewilder me! such wit,what is it with you,

can you not answer a straight forward question?

is it too straight forward for you?

i asked a civil question,if you do not want to respond...fine

i will just remember that you are. infra dignitatem.....

I did reply 5th Dec 3:55pm - in what I consider to be the right place.

Finally - do we really have to have those that do not like 4x4's to constantly try to find fault with what those of us who like 4x4's say?

You really must have excess time on your hands Gio if you feel the need to trawl thro the postings as you have done. But if you feel the need - you carry on my friend - just do not quote out of context - the results will "bite you" as the original wording and actual meaning is available for all toi see.

Best Wishes

Hi Gio

Whatever I say you seem determined to take offence!!

Whatever!

Suitably chilled Clive

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Hi Gio

Whatever I say you seem determined to take offence!!

Whatever!

Suitably chilled Clive

now isn't that better......

its simple clive, i used to ask why at school and now all

these years later i still do. if you take everything at written/

face level,then all you are doing is repeating someone else

thoughts... be they right or wrong!

 

[CliveV]

LPG is for some strange reason, attracting the attention of the anti's as not such a clean fuel as first thought. Obviously they are worried that we might be able to run our beloved larger engined vehicles cheaper and with less emissions which must really catch in their craw. More disinformation as usual, as my mate's LPG Rangey comes out at almost zero emissions even with the cats removed! It doesn't get much cleaner than that!!

All the Landy forums have much useful info, the two I frequent the most being www.lr4x4.com and www.landroveraddict.com being a Mod on them.

GMC engines are a tad noisy and are definitely drivetrain destroyers even driven gently. They are not particularly reliable within their home country either apparently. A mate lives in Canada reckons that they are always breaking down over there. Have a look at this motor belonging to a club member:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cattermole/photo2301.htm
It's got a Jimmy in it, lifting centre axle and steering rear axle and manages to get it around a fair bit of our offroad site..

Gio - This from one of the "tomes" on LPG - I really do not want to get into a heated debate with you but from what I understand the info you posted is incorrect

"In environmental terms the burning of LPG produces less CO2, virtually no CO or SO2. No harmful compounds of benzine or lead result form combustion simply because they are not added to enhance the octane of the fuel. Also note that when set against Diesel, LPG combustion produces NO particulates or ultra-fine particles.

It's not just the environment that benefits (as if that were not enough). Your engine will not suffer the attack of acidic combustion products increasing internal wear and erosion. Engine oil deteriorates at a far slower rate as no acids and almost no carbon deposits reduce its effectiveness. Less oil sludge (and resultant blocking or restricting of crucial engine oil supply drillings or capilliaries) is a large gain. Average engine oil temperatures may be significantly reduced if circulated oil volumes are maintained, further reducing oil degradation and reducing engine wear. As for other parts of the vehicle, the useful life of exhaust systems has been proven to be extended by three times when LPG is used as a fuel."

So there you have it - you CAN have a big engine in any vehicle and make it more enviromentaly friendly than a small hatchback or town car!

In fact a 4x4 is more suitable than most because it has the space to fit the LPG tank(s) without affecting ground clearance or load space.

Ideal really

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Gio - This from one of the "tomes" on LPG - I really do not want to get into a heated debate with you but from what I understand the info you posted is incorrect

"In environmental terms the burning of LPG produces less CO2, virtually no CO or SO2. No harmful compounds of benzine or lead result form combustion simply because they are not added to enhance the octane of the fuel. Also note that when set against Diesel, LPG combustion produces NO particulates or ultra-fine particles.

It's not just the environment that benefits (as if that were not enough). Your engine will not suffer the attack of acidic combustion products increasing internal wear and erosion. Engine oil deteriorates at a far slower rate as no acids and almost no carbon deposits reduce its effectiveness. Less oil sludge (and resultant blocking or restricting of crucial engine oil supply drillings or capilliaries) is a large gain. Average engine oil temperatures may be significantly reduced if circulated oil volumes are maintained, further reducing oil degradation and reducing engine wear. As for other parts of the vehicle, the useful life of exhaust systems has been proven to be extended by three times when LPG is used as a fuel."

So there you have it - you CAN have a big engine in any vehicle and make it more enviromentaly friendly than a small hatchback or town car!

In fact a 4x4 is more suitable than most because it has the space to fit the LPG tank(s) without affecting ground clearance or load space.

Ideal really

this information is the most upto date in this country

and is the findings of cambridge university science dept.

the point is you do not need to be a science boffin to know whatever you burn in an engine WILL do damage.

 

[CliveV]

Gio - This from one of the "tomes" on LPG - I really do not want to get into a heated debate with you but from what I understand the info you posted is incorrect

"In environmental terms the burning of LPG produces less CO2, virtually no CO or SO2. No harmful compounds of benzine or lead result form combustion simply because they are not added to enhance the octane of the fuel. Also note that when set against Diesel, LPG combustion produces NO particulates or ultra-fine particles.

It's not just the environment that benefits (as if that were not enough). Your engine will not suffer the attack of acidic combustion products increasing internal wear and erosion. Engine oil deteriorates at a far slower rate as no acids and almost no carbon deposits reduce its effectiveness. Less oil sludge (and resultant blocking or restricting of crucial engine oil supply drillings or capilliaries) is a large gain. Average engine oil temperatures may be significantly reduced if circulated oil volumes are maintained, further reducing oil degradation and reducing engine wear. As for other parts of the vehicle, the useful life of exhaust systems has been proven to be extended by three times when LPG is used as a fuel."

So there you have it - you CAN have a big engine in any vehicle and make it more enviromentaly friendly than a small hatchback or town car!

In fact a 4x4 is more suitable than most because it has the space to fit the LPG tank(s) without affecting ground clearance or load space.

Ideal really

Hi Gio

The fact is that LPG is so environmentally friendly as a fuel that it has far reduced duty placed upon it and the Government sponsored Powershift scheme allows for 80% of the cost of the LPG installation on cars up to three years old to be paid for BY THE GOVERNMENT.

If you have a caravan and if you feel that way about the Internal Combustion Engine - how can you possible stand to tow it anywhere? The extra pollution caused by towing with a small car is far worse that using a large engine (that is hardly effected by what it tows) on LPG as the emissions on LPG are so low.

Like I said I am NOT looking for a heated discussion as I believe the true facts speak for themselves - but if you have the reference for the Cambridge data you mention I would be pleased to look at it and if their findings are as you say (which I doubt as it would go against everything published so far for an engine properly tuned to run on LPG) I will be the first to apologise.

 

[MONKEY1]

Just to put things into balance ...

Euro 4 Compliant diesel cars such as marketed by VAG, Fiat and GM feature exhaust particulate traps which reduce emissions to level of LPG (or lower in the case of Toyota) the barometer that the EU set the car industry back in 97 when it announced the levels for Euro 4 and 5 (5 is subject to revision).

Diesel cars offer the most fuel efficient solution based on the amount of resource needed to move a car over a distance of 100 miles. Diesel is typically 30-40% more effect than Petrol which is 15% more efficient than LPG.

Diesel is cheaper, easier and cleaner to refine from crude. The advantage of LPG is that it is a natural bi-product of the petrol refining process and would be just burnt if it wasn't sold. However LPG costs far more to transport and requires more vehicles to transport than Diesel or Petrol. Yes more trucks required to deliver it !!

It is up to the Chancellor whether he chooses to continue Powershift grants and keep the levels of duty on LPG (advantages) The Exchequer and the DOT differ on this point quite considerably.

Clive it's absolutely right the best vehicles for fitting LPG to are those where the tanks can be engineered suitably into the chassis/ body work , sadly the majority of cars lose some space if a suitable tank is to fitted.

Like Petrol, LPG is classed as a solvent and therefore both wear the engine; diesel isn't and doesn't .

This bit in Clive posting made me Laugh

"Your engine will not suffer the attack of acidic combustion products increasing internal wear and erosion. Engine oil deteriorates at a far slower rate as no acids and almost no carbon deposits reduce its effectiveness. Less oil sludge (and resultant blocking or restricting of crucial engine oil supply drillings or capilliaries) is a large gain. Average engine oil temperatures may be significantly reduced if circulated oil volumes are maintained, further reducing oil degradation and reducing engine wear. As for other parts of the vehicle, the useful life of exhaust systems has been proven to be extended by three times when LPG is used as a fuel."

Modern diesels when used with suitable oils suffer from little or no wear that's why we have had diesel engines taken apart with over 700K on the clock with little or no wear present. Slugging doesn't occur to the extent that Mercedes have removed sump plugs on all of their new diesel engines !! As for oil temperatures have you never heard of Mobil 1!!

Diesel also offers more consistent omissions from cold and is far more efficient and requires less preheating therefore not requiring enrichment adding to the previous paragraph about reaching the correct temp quickly.

What's interesting is that no large fleet user such BT, Royal Mail or British Gases has really embraced LPG sure they've trialled it but haven't committed and your have to ask yourself why ? (That's another subject for the forum)

Regards Monkeys Husband who just done over 600 miles on 50 litres of the black stuff!!

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Hi Gio

The fact is that LPG is so environmentally friendly as a fuel that it has far reduced duty placed upon it and the Government sponsored Powershift scheme allows for 80% of the cost of the LPG installation on cars up to three years old to be paid for BY THE GOVERNMENT.

If you have a caravan and if you feel that way about the Internal Combustion Engine - how can you possible stand to tow it anywhere? The extra pollution caused by towing with a small car is far worse that using a large engine (that is hardly effected by what it tows) on LPG as the emissions on LPG are so low.

Like I said I am NOT looking for a heated discussion as I believe the true facts speak for themselves - but if you have the reference for the Cambridge data you mention I would be pleased to look at it and if their findings are as you say (which I doubt as it would go against everything published so far for an engine properly tuned to run on LPG) I will be the first to apologise.

do the same as i did,when looking for info.

put lpg emission in the search,and go through the results.

maybe easier if you add cambridge to the search.

but please remember what i said earlier about asking WHY,

you are quoting our glorious leaders,the experts on miss information, and bear in mind when looking for CLEANER fuels

you only look for the ones that meet your objectives.

ie, co2 gasses ect, rather than the ones more to do with acid

rain ect,nor did i say anything against lpg, you are reading

that from what? a comparison,based on a larger section of known

substances that caurse damage all round,and no doubt in a decade

or so the powers that be WILL use this info to raise lpg taxes.

afterall who had herd of particulates, 10 years ago?it was a way

to raise taxes on "the better" fuel,and they will use something

simular in the future on the new "better fuel" lpg.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

do the same as i did,when looking for info.

put lpg emission in the search,and go through the results.

maybe easier if you add cambridge to the search.

but please remember what i said earlier about asking WHY,

you are quoting our glorious leaders,the experts on miss information, and bear in mind when looking for CLEANER fuels

you only look for the ones that meet your objectives.

ie, co2 gasses ect, rather than the ones more to do with acid

rain ect,nor did i say anything against lpg, you are reading

that from what? a comparison,based on a larger section of known

substances that caurse damage all round,and no doubt in a decade

or so the powers that be WILL use this info to raise lpg taxes.

afterall who had herd of particulates, 10 years ago?it was a way

to raise taxes on "the better" fuel,and they will use something

simular in the future on the new "better fuel" lpg.

clive v .

www.admin.cam.ac.uk/offices/environment/guidance/vehicle.html

 

[Geordie]

Just to put things into balance ...

Euro 4 Compliant diesel cars such as marketed by VAG, Fiat and GM feature exhaust particulate traps which reduce emissions to level of LPG (or lower in the case of Toyota) the barometer that the EU set the car industry back in 97 when it announced the levels for Euro 4 and 5 (5 is subject to revision).

Diesel cars offer the most fuel efficient solution based on the amount of resource needed to move a car over a distance of 100 miles. Diesel is typically 30-40% more effect than Petrol which is 15% more efficient than LPG.

Diesel is cheaper, easier and cleaner to refine from crude. The advantage of LPG is that it is a natural bi-product of the petrol refining process and would be just burnt if it wasn't sold. However LPG costs far more to transport and requires more vehicles to transport than Diesel or Petrol. Yes more trucks required to deliver it !!

It is up to the Chancellor whether he chooses to continue Powershift grants and keep the levels of duty on LPG (advantages) The Exchequer and the DOT differ on this point quite considerably.

Clive it's absolutely right the best vehicles for fitting LPG to are those where the tanks can be engineered suitably into the chassis/ body work , sadly the majority of cars lose some space if a suitable tank is to fitted.

Like Petrol, LPG is classed as a solvent and therefore both wear the engine; diesel isn't and doesn't .

This bit in Clive posting made me Laugh

"Your engine will not suffer the attack of acidic combustion products increasing internal wear and erosion. Engine oil deteriorates at a far slower rate as no acids and almost no carbon deposits reduce its effectiveness. Less oil sludge (and resultant blocking or restricting of crucial engine oil supply drillings or capilliaries) is a large gain. Average engine oil temperatures may be significantly reduced if circulated oil volumes are maintained, further reducing oil degradation and reducing engine wear. As for other parts of the vehicle, the useful life of exhaust systems has been proven to be extended by three times when LPG is used as a fuel."

Modern diesels when used with suitable oils suffer from little or no wear that's why we have had diesel engines taken apart with over 700K on the clock with little or no wear present. Slugging doesn't occur to the extent that Mercedes have removed sump plugs on all of their new diesel engines !! As for oil temperatures have you never heard of Mobil 1!!

Diesel also offers more consistent omissions from cold and is far more efficient and requires less preheating therefore not requiring enrichment adding to the previous paragraph about reaching the correct temp quickly.

What's interesting is that no large fleet user such BT, Royal Mail or British Gases has really embraced LPG sure they've trialled it but haven't committed and your have to ask yourself why ? (That's another subject for the forum)

Regards Monkeys Husband who just done over 600 miles on 50 litres of the black stuff!!

Id get it checked out mate, your getting shortchanged, do you have a roof rack fitted? it reduces your mpg, if you followed a 4x4 you could drive in the hole in the air and squeeze even more out of your tank lol!

 

[CliveV]

My quote was from a respected source - try googling and researching rather than trying to be a bit clever. As I said to Gio - I am not trying to score points here! - just reiterate what I have come across.

In comparison - LPG produces less Co and CO2 than petrol and diesel combined and virtually NO nitrogenous or sulphurous waste products. And as for those particulate hydrocarbons - NONE for LPG and a vast amount for diesel!

As for engine wear - yes it is true that LPG being a dry gas has little or no lubricant properties - but the advantage is that it also has no dilutant effect on the engine oil. These cold mornings on a petrol engine - choke out - bags of overfueling - oil washed away in the engine = wear. There is a well documented study going way back where a Police force in the USA converted to LPG and saved a great deal of public money and the engines lasted FAR longer!

As for public utilities - Wiltshire CC vans do - They regularly fill up where I often do at the Calor Gas centre Salisbury - Stannah lifts (based in Andover) also have a fleet of vans that run on LPG.

And as for the effect on the cat's -!!! - LPG cars keep their Cats longer - less burning of unburnt hydrocarbons within the cat that can make them glow with heat when run on petrol! A cat on an LPG car runs cool - no unburnt hydrocarbons to get rid off!!

Oh! and I suppose the Australian big diesel road train trucks have got it wrong as well I suppose - well I will leave you to tell them I am sure they will be amused.

They add LPG to there big diesel rigs to make it burn more efficiently - a diesel cannot run on LPG alone - unlike a petrol motor but if you introduce LPG alongside the diesel oil then far more is burnt - producing more power and less unburnt hydrocarbons and other pollutants. My son is working on a LPG and NOX kit to improve the emissions on a diesel engine even more.

As for the comment re transport - modern LPG transports are efficient - your augment was, I believe, dismissed several years ago when it was realised that in the past the LPG that was transported in the main on UK roads was the small calor gas type cylinders we all use in our caravans. Obviously transporting LPG in this way is highly inefficient but at the time that was the only data available - when it was realised that this data was useless it was discarded.

Finally if LPG is NOT what I understand it to be then I assume that you heat and cook on a petrol or diesel stove whilst caravanning - Me - I will prefer to cook and heat by way of LPG - no fumes - no noxious gases - no carbon deposits.

So I think I will stick with and continue to recommend a fuel that costs half of what you pay, produces less wear in my engine, allows the engine oil to stay clean (still clear and golden between changes - Ah - what bliss!!!) produces a TINY amount of pollution and so is far better for the environment.

The only way a modern engine can run on diesel or petrol is because of the additives - try running your diesel on agricultural red diesel (not legal!) which has little or no additives, for a year and your engine will be cream crackerred.

Monkeys husband - Your 'avin a laugh!!!

 

[Pete4]

Red diesel is diesel with more sulphor and less tax. The other deisel has less sulphur and more tax. That's it, no additives.

As a point of interest. Deisel engines will run on anything that can be fed into the injectors, in fact the first deisels ran on coal dust.

 

[GrahamW]

I could not understand Clive's comment either, why would running a engine on red diesel knacker it up. They are designed to run on it.

 

[CliveV]

Hi Pete - Hoping we can have a sensible chat?

This from an NFU publication:-

"Firstly, if should be explained why there are two grades of fuel available. Most of the fuel sold in Britain is intended for transport and is suited for petrol or diesel engines. However, it is possible to buy rebated gas oil (red diesel) quite legitimately at 15 pence per litre for domestic heating or for running agricultural equipment. Red diesel can be used in a conventional diesel engine, but as it is a different fraction of fuel and contains more sulphur, it is far dirtier than road diesel. Running a road vehicle on red diesel spells bad news for both the Treasury and the environment, so in order to prevent its misuse and to identify it easily, rebated gas oil is always coloured red, hence the popular name."

I have always understood that it is a "different fraction of fuel" and has no additives that modern diesel engines require.

A gareage can tell an engine run on such fuel and any warrenty will be cancelled.

 

[Pete4]

The diesel we get in the UK is of higher quality than the engines require.

The reason you can "chip" diesel engines is because of the quality of fuel we get in blighty.

An unchipped engine will burn any diesel and theoreticaly, any oil. The govenment wont like it because they wont get there 70% cut and the dealers don't like it because it leaves a nasty red stain on in the fuel system.

 

[GrahamW]

Clive

Obviously I would not advocate using red diesel in a road vehicle for the reasons you mention, legality and pollution, yes you get a dirtier exhaust. But as for ruining the engine is concerened that is absolutly not true. I have a fleet of diesel off road vehicles running on red and working twice as hard as any road vehicle (some have covered the equivilent of 600 000 miles) and still going strong. I think this may be a rumour circulated to put people off breaking the law.

 

[CliveV]

Graham - I am sure you are correct in what you say - but from what I understand Red diesel is a different fraction of fuel that does not make it suitable for modern "tricked up" diesels.

The more "agricultural" the vehicle the more Red will suit. I certainly would not want to run a TD4 on Red nor a modern VW/Audi unit.

But a Rover 800 maybe - my sons friend runs his on a 60/40 mix of diesel and Tesco chip oil. But then that car is worth all of

 

[GrahamW]

Clive

During the 2000 fuel shortage, we used red diesel in all our road going service vehicles (with the blessing of the Customs and excise)they trusted us to pay the duty retrospectivly.All our vehicles performed normally without adverse effects.

Pikies use nothing else all the time in thier Mercs and Beemers let alone the transits

 

[Pete4]

A diesel is a diesel. They all have reciprocating pistons and injectors. Some have turbos, intercoolers and/or common rail injection. But at the end of the day, a hydrocarbon is oxidised in a cylinder.

I would run red diesel in any of my cars if it wasn't for the fact that I'd be chucking a load of sulphor at pedestrians and it wasn't illegal.

I hope you're son's friend lets the inland revenue know else he might get done for tax evasion.

 

[CliveV]

As for my sons friend, Pete - I have told him and he just grins - no dye = no offence is what he got told.

As for the additives - all modern diesels have additives to increase their cetane rating to aid starting and to reduce carbon build up in modern engines

One very important action of the additives is to stop the diesel "waxing" in cold weather. Nothing like having your fuel go the consistency of porridge to REALLY spoil your day!

 

[CliveV]

Clive

During the 2000 fuel shortage, we used red diesel in all our road going service vehicles (with the blessing of the Customs and excise)they trusted us to pay the duty retrospectivly.All our vehicles performed normally without adverse effects.

Pikies use nothing else all the time in thier Mercs and Beemers let alone the transits

And we all know how well those guys love and cherrish their vehicles!

LOL

 

[rob_jax]

Is Red Diesel different to ULSD "pump diesel"?

As your friendly UK representative to CEN TC19 (motor vehicle fuel standards - technical), the only difference is the marker put in to identify it as a lower tax band fuel.

The marker comprises a small amount of red dye and an invisible secondary marker - the red dye marks the internal surfaces of the fuel system, pumps, etc., so it is possible to see if an engine has been run on red diesel; and of course HMC&E can dip your tank and quickly check for evasion of duty.

It is possible for "crims" to remove the red dye, but the second marker cannot be removed and shows up at road side tests by C&E.

There is no difference in cetane value (the diesel equivalent to the petrol octane number), no difference in sulfur - although there are differences in sulfur between refineries.

There is a difference between the ULSD pump diesel and Shell V-Power diesel and BP (Aral) Performance diesel - there are specially engineered fuels with a higher cetane value, no sulfur, about 5% better efficiency.

The reason you can chip a diesel engine has very little to do with the cetane value of the fuel, and a whole load to do with the fact that as you increase the amount of fuel injected the power goes up.

Robert

And before anyone corrects my spelling, sulphur has been spelt sulfur for over fifteen years (but phosphorus is still phosphorus). Why? sulfur comes from the original latin, phosphorus from the original greek.

 

[CliveV]

Rob - I bow to your greater knowledge - so the NFU article (and others saying that Red is a diferent fraction are wrong?

What makes the modern "performance" diesels able to perform better?

 

[CliveV]

Monkeys husband

Have a look at www.boostlpg.com - good first hand reports of fleet managers who are using LPG. Also reports from other private users as well.

The include an Alan Hocking from Humberside Police and a Clr. Brian Gocock from Nottingham County Council.

There are many others but this would seem to answer your suggestion that fleet users do not use LPG.