Juggernaut sandwich - now THAT'S dangerous...

[JohnI.Stephen]

One one of the last postings in "4x4 Drivers" Joby made a very relevant comment in that Lorry drivers pose a very real threat to us caravaners. I have huge sympathy for the caravan driver who is sandwiched between two large lorries and, whilst cruising at a steady 60, has a juggernaut within a few feet of his rear.

And it's not just that, these massive beasts then pull out and attempt to overtake, taking many minutes to perform this manoeuvre. Meanwhile (again) you are boxed in as you experience the fun of the change in air pressure as this vehicle passes you, inch by inch.

And then there was the tow car (being driven by a caravanner) who almost CAUSED an accident on the M6 recently. I was sandwiched between lorries (as above) and I decided I had to extract myself. When all was clear, I moved into the middle lane and was proceeding perfectly safely (enjoying the less turbulent air flow) and the speed (I admit) crept up to a max at one point of 67mph; I accept this. To my astonishment and horror, a couple behind in their Nissan X-Trail (being driven solo but with a tow bar) pulled up alongside me and starting to gesticulate wildly. I was concentrating on finalising my overtaking manoeuvre but was suddenly aware that the man to my right was shouting and making gestures. A quick glance revealed that he was mouthing the words "SIXTY MILES PER HOUR". He then decided to cut in front of me and put the brakes on !! Luckily, I was able to return to the inside lane immediately but this self righteous idiot could have caused an accident.

However, the above was hopefully a 'one off'. As I say, my real concern is large lorries which, because of tight schedules and deadlines, REFUSE to slow up and maintain a safe distance causing real anxiety to the driver of the tow vehicle who is merely trying to drive safely at around 60 mph. (and woe betide you if you attempt to cruise at less than 60; they'll try to mow you down!)

Thoughts? John

 

[giovanni_5060838]

i sympathiese with you.

as you have already stated, lorries do drive to a time limit

[for those who do not know] 9 hours a day driving, but can be

extended to 10 hours twice a week.

what this means is,if they get held up, some may find themselves

out of driving hours, before they have finished and this is not

a case of driving back to base, as they cannot they are left in limpo.

i usually set my cruise on m/ways, and what i find is there a

a fair few who see a lorry making an overtake move and they then

speed up.you pull back in and within minutes are up the same

cars arse... again.

now when driving a 7.5 tonne lorry, i can use the outside lane

of a m/way, and also travel legally at 70mph, but again this doesn't seem to stop those in the inside of me speeding up and

causing a que on the outside lane as i then struggle along still

trying to overtake, as i have nowhere else to go.

and the looks you get when you finally get by them ... just and

doing 75 mph is amazing.. like its ok for them to speed and in

all realism be the corse of the traffic build up.

 

[Lutz]

One should not allow one's self to be sandwiched in between two trucks as described. Regardless of how close the truck behind you is and how threatening it may appear in the rear view mirror, you should at least maintain enough space ahead of you to allow you to brake in case of an emergency. Otherwise, there's a real danger that you may run into the traffic ahead. One potential danger behind you is better than two, one ahead and one behind. Even if the truck behind you doesn't, KEEP YOUR DISTANCE. Otherwise you could be partly to blame for an accident, too.

 

[JohnI.Stephen]

Sorry Lutz, I did not mean to imply that i was also driving too closely; I was not. Your point is 100% valid and yes, I always maintain a good distance

John

 

[colin(bridgend)]

I was given to understand that all commercial vehicles over 7.5 tonnes were governed to 56 mph (80kmph) and the driver's time when driving controlled by a tachograph. However I have heard of late of drivers of articulated lorries disconnecting the governor and also removing the tachograph, which are both illegal. I know this for a fact as there is a transport firm in south Wales with 38/44 tonnes artics who travel the length and breadth of the Uk with boxed refrigerated units (company name will remain anonymous) and the drivers aim is to get as many caravaners as possible. They compare results at stop overs. The caravner or normal motorists do not stand a chance when there is this type of so called professional road user on the road with the sole aim to get as many niles in as possible and annoy other road users as much as possible.

No doubt there will be many commercial drivers who will deny this, however I have heard it myself from a HGV driver who had great delight in boasting of his "kill".

 

[sparkes]

I personally feel the guy in the x-trail should be used as a leveling ramp.

I always reduce speed when boxed in, forcing the lorry behind to pass. Not braking but using the weight of the rig to slow me down.

My pet hate is this, I recently went on a duel carriageway and doing 50 came up behind a Nissan Micra doing about 40. I indicate and move out, lots of room and no one bearing down to get upset by the overtake.

Now, the Micra slowly increases his speed so I have to go up to the 60 to pass. (he was doing 40 for several miles before)

I pass, very slowly. then when I get into the nearside lane again he overtakes flashing his lights and swearing!!! bloody idiot!! and then cuts me up slamming his breaks on.

Now, at this time, I decide my family is more important that the twit in the car and DO NOT BREAK! I just put my lights on full and continue. At the last minute, he gets the massage and moves very quickly into the fast lane.

Now, normally, I would not worry too much by idiots like this, but he made my day, WHY? well the sudden movement into the fast lane cut up the police officer who was beside me trying to get past to pull him and ask what his game is. The police asked me to stop with the usual pointing.

The outcome is that the Micra driver is being done for his superb driving skills and my details where taken to act as a witness. The police officer was not at all interested in the guys story that I nearly rear ended him.

Now the best BIT, we get home and outside our neighbors (it appears he is the brother in law of the guy next door) is the Micra. 20 mins later we get a knock on the door and the guy is there all apologetic and trying to give excuses. I am very diplomatic and explain that I hope he gets a ban and remind him that if he had not moved, I would have used the weight of a discovery and twin axle to push him out of the way. (don't you love no claims protection)

But why do so many people speed up when being overtaken by a caravan?

Steve

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Steve - well done. I hope you stand by the facts and not be intimidated in any way by the neighbour trying the old pals act for the Nissan driver.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

I was given to understand that all commercial vehicles over 7.5 tonnes were governed to 56 mph (80kmph) and the driver's time when driving controlled by a tachograph. However I have heard of late of drivers of articulated lorries disconnecting the governor and also removing the tachograph, which are both illegal. I know this for a fact as there is a transport firm in south Wales with 38/44 tonnes artics who travel the length and breadth of the Uk with boxed refrigerated units (company name will remain anonymous) and the drivers aim is to get as many caravaners as possible. They compare results at stop overs. The caravner or normal motorists do not stand a chance when there is this type of so called professional road user on the road with the sole aim to get as many niles in as possible and annoy other road users as much as possible.

No doubt there will be many commercial drivers who will deny this, however I have heard it myself from a HGV driver who had great delight in boasting of his "kill".

half right, new lorries do seem to be coming out governed to 56.

its not law in the uk as an hgv can still travel at 60mph[7.5 can

still do 70 and need no governers]but bear in mind that A NOT ALL LORRIES ARE NEW.

B. THERE SPEEDOS WILL BE MORE ACCURATE SO YOUR 56MPH MAY BE ONLY 54MPH TO THEM.

NOW WHERES THOSE CARAVANS..

 

[Lutz]

I have to make a small correction here. Only vehicles over 12 tonnes require a speed limiter set at 56mph. For vehicles between 7.5 and 12 tonnes a 60mph setting applies.

 

[sparkes]

Colin

The fact will be stated, as for the old pal thing, No, that particular neighbour spent 3 days telling how bikers are all idiots before he saw the contents of my garage and its 2 bikes.

For some reason, he avoids me a lot since then!

 

[Lutz]

I have to make a small correction here. Only vehicles over 12 tonnes require a speed limiter set at 56mph. For vehicles between 7.5 and 12 tonnes a 60mph setting applies.

It gets even more complicated:

Buses are restricted to 62mph (70mph if first used before 1st January 1998)

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Just a couple of comments

It wasn't me in the X-Trail !!

I have long suspected that the X-Trail speedo is rather fast.

I recently got one of the speed camera warning bleepers and this goes mad at 35mph in a 30 mph area.

If I drive at an indicated 60mph on the motorway I am in among the lorries that are governed at 56mph.

If I drive at an indicated 65mph when towing I only have to worry about overtaking lorries and not being overtaken by them as well.

So the self righteous person in the X-Trail could have thought that you were going even faster than you were!!

Still doesn't excuse the behaviour.

 

[Icemaker]

Watson (johng) its not just the x trail, my father has a brand new shogun sport and on a trip to the isle of white recently which was 240 miles his car did 16 miles further than either my sisters zafira and my alhambra. mitsubishi insist its within the tolerance levels and refuse to do anything even though we pointed out that if he kept the car for 100 thousand miles it would have six thousand more on the clock than it had actually done.

 

[DEANO3528]

Funny you should mention speedo inaccuracies. I have long thought that french cars speedo's are grossly inaccurate, as on our local bit of 50mph there is always one at the front of the 45 mph queue. Having GPS has since confirmed my suspicions, as being far more accurate than a mass produced speedometer, it shows up the 'fast readers'.

BTW it's nice to be home again, after a fortnight in Birmingham at the Bike Show.

 

[MONKEY1]

I think for the majority on the forum you have to understand just how inaccurate/ accurate Speedo and limiters are. For those interested I shall give you a few examples I've seen.

Two Artics do the same journey following each other from Folkestone in Kent to Hull and back one has an extra six miles on the clock when they've finished the trip - interesting when you pay the lease on a cost per mile basis and the driver receives a bonus based on mileage with out an incident.

A Mercedes Sprinter Van does a journey of 130 miles yet the GPS tracking device tells you its 112 miles !!

Because new truck tyres come with between 25-28 mm of tread before they've been regrooved you can effective lover the tyre by 20 mm this can give you another 4-7 miles per hour that's the equivalent of an extra 2 hours per week for some drivers.

Now cars are notoriously in accurate for speedo although I believe it's one or two rouges rather than whole makes or models., although back in the 80's the Met Police sent a whole load of cars (Maestro's) back to BL because they're couldn't give speeds accurately.

Monkeys H

 

[sparkes]

Funny you should mention speedo inaccuracies. I have long thought that french cars speedo's are grossly inaccurate, as on our local bit of 50mph there is always one at the front of the 45 mph queue. Having GPS has since confirmed my suspicions, as being far more accurate than a mass produced speedometer, it shows up the 'fast readers'.

BTW it's nice to be home again, after a fortnight in Birmingham at the Bike Show.

Dean, You should have said you where at the NEC. I would have done the 10 miles for a drink!

Steve

 

[Colin_5082139]

I was given to understand that all commercial vehicles over 7.5 tonnes were governed to 56 mph (80kmph) and the driver's time when driving controlled by a tachograph. However I have heard of late of drivers of articulated lorries disconnecting the governor and also removing the tachograph, which are both illegal. I know this for a fact as there is a transport firm in south Wales with 38/44 tonnes artics who travel the length and breadth of the Uk with boxed refrigerated units (company name will remain anonymous) and the drivers aim is to get as many caravaners as possible. They compare results at stop overs. The caravner or normal motorists do not stand a chance when there is this type of so called professional road user on the road with the sole aim to get as many niles in as possible and annoy other road users as much as possible.

No doubt there will be many commercial drivers who will deny this, however I have heard it myself from a HGV driver who had great delight in boasting of his "kill".

As a driver of one of these juggernauts and I tow a caravan,I would just like to state that speed limiters cannot be discconnected on modern trucks like some people seem to think. So anyone who seems to think you can just pull the fuse and it stops working is quite wrong.

Colin

 

[Lutz]

I can't quite understand your train of thought. If a tyre is smaller than original equipment, whether by regrooving or just a different size, the vehicle will actually be travelling slower at the same engine speed, not faster, and the recorded distance will be more than what it actually is.

 

[MONKEY1]

I can't quite understand your train of thought. If a tyre is smaller than original equipment, whether by regrooving or just a different size, the vehicle will actually be travelling slower at the same engine speed, not faster, and the recorded distance will be more than what it actually is.

Lutz,

Sorry didn't explain the full story; effective what you do is put a truck through it's MOT and speed-limiter test on a worn set of tyres. Then take of the tyres and fit a newer set all round. This con is very effective when the truck is running on the 385/315 size tyres rather than the UK's traditional 295 size.

Regards Monkeys Husband

 

[DEANO3528]

Dean, You should have said you where at the NEC. I would have done the 10 miles for a drink!

Steve

Hell yeah! We were at the Corus (ex-Regency) in Shirley. Would have been good.

 

[Stephen_5077753]

This is to the OP, John I Stephen.

Your situation as you described was unfortunatly an occurance that occurs far too often.

I realise that you at the time decided to extract yourself from the HGV sandwich by overtaking at 67mph was what you thought was the best action to take. Do you not think now, looking back that another course of action would of been to slow down?

If the HGV behind you was approaching you, I can guess that he was doing 56mph and you were doing less (maybe by 1 or 2 mph granted). If you had slowed down for a minute this would of created an even larger gap (assuming you had a good gap anyway) between you and the HGV in front. It would then of course also mean that the second HGV would be able to overtake you more swiftly.

I may well of done the same as you at the time, its only when looking back we see that there could of been an alternative approach.

As with the driver of the X-trai, thats just damm stupid of him. If he was a caravanner he should know that driving at 67mph, although not legal is a lot safer than having to brake suddenly cos he just cut you up. Stupid fool.

Steve

 

[JohnI.Stephen]

Steve (and others incidentally), I do agree with you. In retrospect, and having considered the views here, I agree that I should have slowed down allwoing the HGV behind to decide to overtake or hold back.

I am glad that my new Sorento has cruise control as it'll make it much easier to simply break and then 'Resume' (say 60 mph).

Thanks again for all the useful comments (faulty speedos aside !!)

John

 

[Barney2]

The Facts Re HGV Speed Limiters/Tachographs.

All HGVs registered in the E.U after 1988 (F reg onwards) are BY LAW required to be fitted with a tachograph coupled to an electronic speed limiter, set to 90 kph/56 mph.

To tamper with either the tachograph or limiter is an offence, punishable by a hefty penalty. Non operation of either, means that the vehicle is unroadworthy. A HGV with a defective tacho/limiter would not pass it's annual M.O.T (which is far more stringent than the m.o.t for cars, and takes effect after 12 months)

Cases of unscrupulous HGV operators fitting electronic gizmo's which allow the driver to override the systems do occur, but very rarely. My brother in law was an accident investigation inspector for the police for 15 years and only came across two cases of it in all that time.

Given the inaccuracy of some vehicle speedos, 56/7/8/9 mph will occur.

A lot of non E.U registered vehicles are now using our roads on an almost permanent basis (Turkish & East European especially)God alone knows the speeds these trucks will do, or the hours the drivers have to work!

In my experience the vast majority of hauliers in the U.K stick to the rules. The Ministry of Transport comes down very heavily on those (when found out) who break them. My own (ex) employers had the Ministry men camped in the transport office and going over the company with a magnifying glass, when one of the drivers went out overloaded by one and a half tons, (a genuine mistake)

If you see a HGV struggling to overtake, lift your foot from the accelerator for a couple of seconds and let him go, that's all it takes, and remember to flash your headlights (once) as he clears your outfit, that lets him know that it is safe to pull back into his lane. You will probably get a "thank you" flash of his lights/indicators. Or travel above the 56 mph mark if you can, and watch the trucks recede in your mirror.

Finally, give the foreign (left hand drive) HGVs a very wide berth, the drivers view is very restricted due to the height and width of his vehicle.

Barney, (retired in 2003 after 39 years trucking)

 

[Guest]

Barney,

I have no doubt regarding the validity of your facts, however, I suspect there may be a significant opinion that disagrees with the comments regarding the speeds trucks are actually doing. I tow between 56 and 60 mph on motorways and am continually being overtaking by trucks of both UK and non-Uk registration. The speed at which they pass usually indicates they are travelling at 60 or greater. I also object to the desire of trucks to travel in convoys, usually tailing each other in the middle, or outer lanes and ensuring a large tailback is created. Invariably as soon as one passes and pulls in, the next man in line pulls out and the process is repeated.

How often do you see a sign on the back which states 'driven carefully, if not telephone...etc' Frequently I have felt the desire to call the number and give details, but that means stopping on a motorway, which is illegal of course. And if I did, would the driver lose his job, or is he under pressure from his Company to meet an impossibly tight schedule?

 

[Barney2]

Barney,

I have no doubt regarding the validity of your facts, however, I suspect there may be a significant opinion that disagrees with the comments regarding the speeds trucks are actually doing. I tow between 56 and 60 mph on motorways and am continually being overtaking by trucks of both UK and non-Uk registration. The speed at which they pass usually indicates they are travelling at 60 or greater. I also object to the desire of trucks to travel in convoys, usually tailing each other in the middle, or outer lanes and ensuring a large tailback is created. Invariably as soon as one passes and pulls in, the next man in line pulls out and the process is repeated.

How often do you see a sign on the back which states 'driven carefully, if not telephone...etc' Frequently I have felt the desire to call the number and give details, but that means stopping on a motorway, which is illegal of course. And if I did, would the driver lose his job, or is he under pressure from his Company to meet an impossibly tight schedule?

Hiya Scotchlad, the reason HGVs seem to be travelling in convoy is that they are all doing virtually the same speed. HGV tachographs are extremely efficient, as are the speed limiters when correctly set.

Given a flat road and an accurately set limiter, overtaking is almost impossible, but slight variations ,ie,hills, vehicle weights, acceleration, pulling power etc, mean that some trucks sometimes have a slight speed advantage.

Picture a HGV with a 40ton load on the motorway, he's doing 56 mph, behind him is an unloaded HGV (or a car towing a caravan), also doing 56 mph. On a slight hill, the loaded truck starts slowing slightly. The empty truck doesn't slow as quickly and pulls out to overtake. The hill flattens out, the loaded HGV is quickly back up to speed, result, two vehicles side by side for miles.

I once sat behind two HGVs on the M62, one of them joined the motorway at Normanton (eastbound)The truck on the motorway pulled in to the centre lane to let him in, and as there are no hills for a few miles, and the joining vehicle was soon up to speed, they sat side by side for 9 miles. Eventually, a police car pulled them both onto the hard shoulder, and I carried on to Hull.

Barney.