But I still have 20/20 vision Lee and I like a car that goes where I want. I've done to many thousand of MIRA laps in detroit lard + the 300c has little to do with Mercedes roots, LOL
...that is, unless you feel there is something to add that is.
Divide and conquer. Thats what 'the man' is doing. You see we have sub groups of minorities that are created by the media and even the government, and even us (I'll explain that one in a mo).
Lets take 4x4's for a start. They are owned by a very very wide spectrum of society. All of a sudden, the media decide that it is they alone that are destroying the world. They print the stories about them being used for the school run and how wrong that is and we all get sucked in. Reading it saying 'yeah, thats right. How dare they'. So they have printed a story about a few percent of the population and a bigger group gains empathy with that point of view and carries on buying that paper/view. Then it becomes politically correct to adopt that view on a moral basis.
They've done the same with immigrants (legal or otherwise) but what percentage of us have had enough exposure to form our own opinion.
We are used and manipulated by both the media and the government to try and make us read their papers or vote for them. And its all on trivial issues.
We as caravanners do the same thing (or so it appears on here). New caravans vs old caravans, twin axles vs single axles, towing slow vs towing fast, staying at home vs going abroad, JC good vs JC bad, etc, etc.
Its all a load of fuss over nothing.
PS is a 2wd Hyundai Tucson a '4x4'? Is a VW golf 4motion a '4x4'? See, its all rubbish.
Sorry
Divide and conquer. Thats what 'the man' is doing. You see we have sub groups of minorities that are created by the media and even the government, and even us (I'll explain that one in a mo).
Lets take 4x4's for a start. They are owned by a very very wide spectrum of society. All of a sudden, the media decide that it is they alone that are destroying the world. They print the stories about them being used for the school run and how wrong that is and we all get sucked in. Reading it saying 'yeah, thats right. How dare they'. So they have printed a story about a few percent of the population and a bigger group gains empathy with that point of view and carries on buying that paper/view. Then it becomes politically correct to adopt that view on a moral basis.
They've done the same with immigrants (legal or otherwise) but what percentage of us have had enough exposure to form our own opinion.
We are used and manipulated by both the media and the government to try and make us read their papers or vote for them. And its all on trivial issues.
We as caravanners do the same thing (or so it appears on here). New caravans vs old caravans, twin axles vs single axles, towing slow vs towing fast, staying at home vs going abroad, JC good vs JC bad, etc, etc.
Its all a load of fuss over nothing.
PS is a 2wd Hyundai Tucson a '4x4'? Is a VW golf 4motion a '4x4'? See, its all rubbish.
Sorry
Parksy
Moderator
At last, common sense! Thanks Ian.
This topic started because we had a bit of snow.
I own a 4x4 as it happens but I would have had no major drama in a family saloon during the slight bit of bad weather. My 4x4 stayed in 2wd throughout the snowy conditions, nobody needed 'rescuing' and I've never ever had anybody anywhere mention the fact that my car is 4x4 except to say what good nick it's in for an old one.
The few miles that I do won't make much difference one way or the other to the planet but when the Yanks give up their home air con, ginormous refridgerators and consumerist lifestyle I'll consider getting something slightly more eco friendly.
Certain topics on this forum bring out the worst in some members who seize the chance to nit pick and attack others.
Nobody ever changed the world from a caravan forum so let's give it a rest, it's all been said.
This topic started because we had a bit of snow.
I own a 4x4 as it happens but I would have had no major drama in a family saloon during the slight bit of bad weather. My 4x4 stayed in 2wd throughout the snowy conditions, nobody needed 'rescuing' and I've never ever had anybody anywhere mention the fact that my car is 4x4 except to say what good nick it's in for an old one.
The few miles that I do won't make much difference one way or the other to the planet but when the Yanks give up their home air con, ginormous refridgerators and consumerist lifestyle I'll consider getting something slightly more eco friendly.
Certain topics on this forum bring out the worst in some members who seize the chance to nit pick and attack others.
Nobody ever changed the world from a caravan forum so let's give it a rest, it's all been said.
Why are you discriminating against the Americans when China is polluting far worse along with some other Eastern bloc countries?
Parksy
Moderator
Best get straight on to the Chinese embassy then and let them know that Parksy from the Practical Caravan Forum is about to mention them so as not to be discriminatory.
That'll teach them to pollute!!
Scouser, since you are so disdainful of discussion on so many issues, why I wonder do you bother to be part of any forum, which after all is a discussion platform?
You are not the only one to recognise the great conspiracy conundrum we all have to deal with - the truth is not everyone buys it, and they can show this - with discussion!
I started this string after musing that after all the flak that 4x4s get (you clearly identify with that), this was a good time to reflect that such vehicles may not be so bad after all.
The discussion that has followed would seem to show that people are more than capable of making up their own minds...which is a healthy riposte against the very manipulation you complain about.
You are not the only one to recognise the great conspiracy conundrum we all have to deal with - the truth is not everyone buys it, and they can show this - with discussion!
I started this string after musing that after all the flak that 4x4s get (you clearly identify with that), this was a good time to reflect that such vehicles may not be so bad after all.
The discussion that has followed would seem to show that people are more than capable of making up their own minds...which is a healthy riposte against the very manipulation you complain about.
Parksy
Moderator
Topics such as this one invariably end up with forum members launching written attacks on each other.
Members seem to be incapable of agreeing to disagree on this forum.
This thread has come very close to the edge once or twice and it's heading that way once again.
Sharpening the axe.
Members seem to be incapable of agreeing to disagree on this forum.
This thread has come very close to the edge once or twice and it's heading that way once again.
Sharpening the axe.
Damian
Moderator
Following on from the posting by Parksy, I have been watching this topic and seen how it has gone, as usual.
Users were asked 8 postings ago not to continue with the topic but some obviously cannot read or choose to ignore a request from a Mod to stop before it all ends in personal insult.
This topic is now most certainly CLOSED and any further posting will entail the whole topic being removed without further comment.
Users were asked 8 postings ago not to continue with the topic but some obviously cannot read or choose to ignore a request from a Mod to stop before it all ends in personal insult.
This topic is now most certainly CLOSED and any further posting will entail the whole topic being removed without further comment.
I have been following this thread and it is very tame to what has gone before. Damian you will be guilty of stopping a debate on an issue that is very dear to a lot of caravanners. Just this week Edinburgh Council doubled the parking fees for high emmission cars (not specific 4X4) So these debates are informative as to what is going on. Delete abusive messages by all means but don't delete an informative thread. Most cars that tow caravans by the way are High Emmission Vehicles. So could a thread be devoted to that issue ??? Nigel was looking for topics for the magazine High polluting cars could be one topic afterall it affects the industry.
good point gumbo well made so we are going to stiffle the debate on 4x4's once again damian just because the back slapping are't we great brigade don't get it all their own way if the only comment that are allowed are the ones in support of one particular point of view what is the point of having a forum.
I refer you to colinn opening post "lets hear it for the 4x4" if the subject is so taboo the thread should have been stopped there and then with the first post not wait untill some disagree and then shout stop................
the use of a 4x4's is an important question around the caravaning comunity with larger heavier vans comming onto our roads the key question has to be what the hell do you tow one with I have no idea what car is suitable just dont mention the f word.
I refer you to colinn opening post "lets hear it for the 4x4" if the subject is so taboo the thread should have been stopped there and then with the first post not wait untill some disagree and then shout stop................
the use of a 4x4's is an important question around the caravaning comunity with larger heavier vans comming onto our roads the key question has to be what the hell do you tow one with I have no idea what car is suitable just dont mention the f word.
OK, i realise I am walking on eggshells here, but can I get away with saying that although this Topic is now officially closed by the moderators, the issue of WHY deserves comment...
I agree with Gumbo that what has been said on this thread has been comparatively tame, and the subject involved is dear to caravanners.
That being the case, are not the moderators being unduly heavy handed, indeed paranoiac, about what they think MIGHT be said rather than what has actually been said?
In my own case, I have tried to choose my words very carefully, so as to make salient points without being offensive.
True, I challenged Scouser over his dismissal of forum discussion on the merits of various caravanner talking points. Surely that's pertinent, considering this is a Caravan Forum and I am sure Scouser is big enough to recognise that others have a right to express different points of view.
I was however surprised that the moderator welcomed Scouser's comments as "common sense" and then proferred further discussion despite his own request to say no more. (If the moderator agrees that so many common issues are not worth making a fuss about, we may as well all pack up.) The other moderator then sarcastically suggested that WE cannot read!
It was clear that Moderator Parksy had himself become fed up with the Topic (and others may well agree, but nobody's forced to read it) but is that sufficient reason for a moderator to stifle discussion, even if it is repetitive, when no rules were being broken?
Ah, you might say, it was getting close to the edge. But "close" is the operative word, and perhaps that is to the contributors' credit that they know the boundaries.
For goodness sake, what's wrong with a bit of knockabout discussion? Why call time on a discussion that is clearly making waves? Isn't that what a good Forum is all about??
OK, that's off my chest and no offence intended to anyone, and no offence will be taken by me with anyone who has a different view. lol.
I agree with Gumbo that what has been said on this thread has been comparatively tame, and the subject involved is dear to caravanners.
That being the case, are not the moderators being unduly heavy handed, indeed paranoiac, about what they think MIGHT be said rather than what has actually been said?
In my own case, I have tried to choose my words very carefully, so as to make salient points without being offensive.
True, I challenged Scouser over his dismissal of forum discussion on the merits of various caravanner talking points. Surely that's pertinent, considering this is a Caravan Forum and I am sure Scouser is big enough to recognise that others have a right to express different points of view.
I was however surprised that the moderator welcomed Scouser's comments as "common sense" and then proferred further discussion despite his own request to say no more. (If the moderator agrees that so many common issues are not worth making a fuss about, we may as well all pack up.) The other moderator then sarcastically suggested that WE cannot read!
It was clear that Moderator Parksy had himself become fed up with the Topic (and others may well agree, but nobody's forced to read it) but is that sufficient reason for a moderator to stifle discussion, even if it is repetitive, when no rules were being broken?
Ah, you might say, it was getting close to the edge. But "close" is the operative word, and perhaps that is to the contributors' credit that they know the boundaries.
For goodness sake, what's wrong with a bit of knockabout discussion? Why call time on a discussion that is clearly making waves? Isn't that what a good Forum is all about??
OK, that's off my chest and no offence intended to anyone, and no offence will be taken by me with anyone who has a different view. lol.
sorry premature posting I was also going to say if a caravan forum cannot discuss the merits and the disadvantages of a particular vehicle for towing and the impact that may have in the wider spectrum ie when not actually being used as a tow car without someone taking offence is in my view quite childish stopping and deleting whole posts and threads by the mods is only pandering to their assumptions that it is only their point of view that is valid.
colin.
colin.
Damian
Moderator
I have a confession to make, my last post was a bit innacurate, I meant to say any more personal postings would end up with removal of th etopic, as I canot be bothered to struggle with the editing facilities of the database we have to work with.
The last thing I want to do is spoil sensible, rational debate, as long as it remains just that and not start bringing personal attacks in to the ring.
I do not own a 4x4, but do own adn drive one of the top range of the governments cash cows, a Renault Grand Espace, so am hit by the increase in duty just the same as all the other high polluters.
Will I change it,,,no because the resale value is next to nothing now, thanks to GB and his wasteful bunch of useless colleagues who have reduced this country to its knees.
So, keep good debate alive, just non personal if you please.
The last thing I want to do is spoil sensible, rational debate, as long as it remains just that and not start bringing personal attacks in to the ring.
I do not own a 4x4, but do own adn drive one of the top range of the governments cash cows, a Renault Grand Espace, so am hit by the increase in duty just the same as all the other high polluters.
Will I change it,,,no because the resale value is next to nothing now, thanks to GB and his wasteful bunch of useless colleagues who have reduced this country to its knees.
So, keep good debate alive, just non personal if you please.
I had intended to post this a couple of days ago but held off as I thought the topic had been closed but apparently not, so here is a non personal post (unless you are a member of Edinburgh City Council).
It appears Edinburgh City Council think it is a good idea to increase the cost of resident parking permits for those who own cars in the higher co2 emission brackets. In some cases the cost will double. Those with cars in lower emission bracket will pay less. It seems that large cars now produce more pollutants even when parked !! This topic featured on the radio and t.v. news through out the day either Tuesday or Wednesday with the usual result of high emission cars being automatically dubbed 4x4. This proposal has been initiated by a Green Party councillor who is convinced he has the support of the public because they share his green beliefs - not because if you ask someone would you like your parking costs cut and we will pass on the cost to someone else they are going to agree to save themselves some cash.
To all those who have smaller cars please do not be complacent. Do you really think that if the "tree huggers" get rid of the 4x4s and bigger cars they are not going to set their sights on you? Next thing you will know is "no one needs a 1.8 or 1.6 ltr engine" Get the bikes out of the sheds folks.
It appears Edinburgh City Council think it is a good idea to increase the cost of resident parking permits for those who own cars in the higher co2 emission brackets. In some cases the cost will double. Those with cars in lower emission bracket will pay less. It seems that large cars now produce more pollutants even when parked !! This topic featured on the radio and t.v. news through out the day either Tuesday or Wednesday with the usual result of high emission cars being automatically dubbed 4x4. This proposal has been initiated by a Green Party councillor who is convinced he has the support of the public because they share his green beliefs - not because if you ask someone would you like your parking costs cut and we will pass on the cost to someone else they are going to agree to save themselves some cash.
To all those who have smaller cars please do not be complacent. Do you really think that if the "tree huggers" get rid of the 4x4s and bigger cars they are not going to set their sights on you? Next thing you will know is "no one needs a 1.8 or 1.6 ltr engine" Get the bikes out of the sheds folks.
I did an internet search a few days ago and readily found some figures about UK new car registrations with sector percentages.
Sadly I didn't save the actual data but in essence since 1980 we have been registering 1.5 - 2.5 million cars a year
During that time the figures would suggest that cars in the 4x4 category equated to 3-4% on average , peaking in at 8% in 2006 I think.
That suggests that in relative terms the number of so called 4x4 on the road is relatively low.
Granted some of those 4x4 are in the top level of polluters but others are not , some sit only just higher than some family saloons , so there is a broad cross section.
My point is that 4x4s are the not cause of Global warming , the damage was done 200 years ago by our ancestors. Yes high polluting cars will not be helping but dont loose site of the fact that no matter what car you drive its polluting in some way just a little less.
As its been said the car you drive is not the only factor , how you drive , where you drive and how far you drive will all be a factor.
I do 14000 miles a year , my boss , in her Avensis diesel, does close to 40000 a year , despite my high Co2 and her low Co2 she puts out more pollution than me.
Yet no one seems to want to take that into account
Sadly I didn't save the actual data but in essence since 1980 we have been registering 1.5 - 2.5 million cars a year
During that time the figures would suggest that cars in the 4x4 category equated to 3-4% on average , peaking in at 8% in 2006 I think.
That suggests that in relative terms the number of so called 4x4 on the road is relatively low.
Granted some of those 4x4 are in the top level of polluters but others are not , some sit only just higher than some family saloons , so there is a broad cross section.
My point is that 4x4s are the not cause of Global warming , the damage was done 200 years ago by our ancestors. Yes high polluting cars will not be helping but dont loose site of the fact that no matter what car you drive its polluting in some way just a little less.
As its been said the car you drive is not the only factor , how you drive , where you drive and how far you drive will all be a factor.
I do 14000 miles a year , my boss , in her Avensis diesel, does close to 40000 a year , despite my high Co2 and her low Co2 she puts out more pollution than me.
Yet no one seems to want to take that into account
RogerP.
That was eactly the point I was making earlier in the thread.
My mileage and the way I use my car means that many smaller so called eco friendly family wagons polute far more than I do.
That was eactly the point I was making earlier in the thread.
My mileage and the way I use my car means that many smaller so called eco friendly family wagons polute far more than I do.
Lets not beat about the bush here. I have heard Gordon refer to 4x4s as "Chelsea Tractors" so he has a Class problem with them. Next step was to raise the Tax, look folks see how I am making the rich pay, only problem was like many other taxes he never thought it through. So the Middle Class people got caught again, you know the ones with the Espace or Galaxy etc. It started a bandwagon rolling and the greens are onto in a flash. The greens are making fools out of democratic elected bodies. They held the Scottish Excuetive to ransom just recently over it's budget. The Greens are never elected they creep in under proportional representation, and then apply pressure in support of silly causes.
A major Town Council in Wiltshire , until last december, employed a "Climate Control Manager".
They made her redundant. Ask yourself why??
Cheers
Dustydog
They made her redundant. Ask yourself why??
Cheers
Dustydog
Parksy
Moderator
Damian and myself have come in for some criticism by forum members so although my reply should really be in the 'Our Website' section I'll post it here to answer the members who feel that they've been affected by the moderators on on this topic. Apologies for the lateness of my reply,the debate has moved on but I've been away from the computer for a while.
Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin.........
The vast majority of internet forums are current from a technical point of view . They have edit facilities, they are user friendly and the moderators and administrators have no trouble at all.
Their technology supports the moving, blocking, editing etc. of topics or individual posts if necessary by their moderators. Members who don't abide by the rules can be suspended or banned quite easily and many forums have private message areas where a word here or there can be exchanged away from the forum.
Most caravan related forums seem to run along quite smoothly and although one or two are sponsored by various companies they are not hosted by magazines.
Now let's look at Practical Caravan forum
A good starting point for those interested in taking up caravanning for the first time is for them to buy the Practical Caravan magazine. Experienced caravanners might want some technical information or advice about changing or trading in their caravan. Others might want some information about sites or areas to visit.
This particular forum is hosted by the magazine and so what happens on the forum can in some ways reflect for good or ill on the magazine. Unfortunately this particular forum is behind the times from a technical viewpoint and while it works ok and it's members exchange very valuable information the moderators don't have much to work with.
We have three basic tools. The delete button, threats and persuasion - that's it. No way to permanently or temporarily block posts or topics, no way to move them, nothing.
The delete button is a last resort so we're left with threats and persuasion. There's nothing at all wrong with a knock about discussion but when a moderator starts to 'see' a bit of ill feeling boiling up what does he do? It's an instant and very public judgement call and don't forget that this is possibly the first caravan forum that potential newcomers turn to and the reputation of the forum hosts could depend on our action.
This topic is relatively mild compared to what used to happen on this forum but a classic sign of ill feeling brewing is when members begin to copy / paste each others posts and hurl them back and forth repetitively. ( 09/02/2009)
If we the moderators sit on our hands and do absolutely nothing we've all seen the depths to which the forum can sink in times past but in these credit crunched times can we all be 100% certain that Haymarket Publications will risk the reputation of their caravan magazine for the sake of a few keyboard warriors?
My first intervention was on 10/02/2009 because although I agree that the majority of members were having an adult sensible and reasonable debate the same 'protagonists' were squaring up for round two.
I have no method of locking a topic or putting a stop on any one member and in fact it wasn't my intention to prevent further debate but it was a gentle hint to those who want to return to the bad old days that the topic is being watched and that posts submitted are subject to moderation. Perhaps I could have put it better.
It wasn't my intention to appear paranoid about what might be written, all I was trying to do was to allow the debate to continue whilst attempting to keep the forum on an even keel from a wider perspective.
The debate has in fact continued and my comments obviously haven't been well received so perhaps one or two would prefer me to abandon the first two forum tools of persuasion or threats (whichever way you see them ) and just resort to the delete button without any comment.
Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin.........
The vast majority of internet forums are current from a technical point of view . They have edit facilities, they are user friendly and the moderators and administrators have no trouble at all.
Their technology supports the moving, blocking, editing etc. of topics or individual posts if necessary by their moderators. Members who don't abide by the rules can be suspended or banned quite easily and many forums have private message areas where a word here or there can be exchanged away from the forum.
Most caravan related forums seem to run along quite smoothly and although one or two are sponsored by various companies they are not hosted by magazines.
Now let's look at Practical Caravan forum
A good starting point for those interested in taking up caravanning for the first time is for them to buy the Practical Caravan magazine. Experienced caravanners might want some technical information or advice about changing or trading in their caravan. Others might want some information about sites or areas to visit.
This particular forum is hosted by the magazine and so what happens on the forum can in some ways reflect for good or ill on the magazine. Unfortunately this particular forum is behind the times from a technical viewpoint and while it works ok and it's members exchange very valuable information the moderators don't have much to work with.
We have three basic tools. The delete button, threats and persuasion - that's it. No way to permanently or temporarily block posts or topics, no way to move them, nothing.
The delete button is a last resort so we're left with threats and persuasion. There's nothing at all wrong with a knock about discussion but when a moderator starts to 'see' a bit of ill feeling boiling up what does he do? It's an instant and very public judgement call and don't forget that this is possibly the first caravan forum that potential newcomers turn to and the reputation of the forum hosts could depend on our action.
This topic is relatively mild compared to what used to happen on this forum but a classic sign of ill feeling brewing is when members begin to copy / paste each others posts and hurl them back and forth repetitively. ( 09/02/2009)
If we the moderators sit on our hands and do absolutely nothing we've all seen the depths to which the forum can sink in times past but in these credit crunched times can we all be 100% certain that Haymarket Publications will risk the reputation of their caravan magazine for the sake of a few keyboard warriors?
My first intervention was on 10/02/2009 because although I agree that the majority of members were having an adult sensible and reasonable debate the same 'protagonists' were squaring up for round two.
I have no method of locking a topic or putting a stop on any one member and in fact it wasn't my intention to prevent further debate but it was a gentle hint to those who want to return to the bad old days that the topic is being watched and that posts submitted are subject to moderation. Perhaps I could have put it better.
It wasn't my intention to appear paranoid about what might be written, all I was trying to do was to allow the debate to continue whilst attempting to keep the forum on an even keel from a wider perspective.
The debate has in fact continued and my comments obviously haven't been well received so perhaps one or two would prefer me to abandon the first two forum tools of persuasion or threats (whichever way you see them ) and just resort to the delete button without any comment.
Very eloquent and clearly stated Parksy, I don't see how anyone can fail to understand how this forum works after reading your most expressive post. Well said.
⇨ On 7 Feb 2009, "phil" wrote : I've driven Alpine roads for 30 years in conditions far far worse than any we have had this week, stick chains on and everyone keeps going...and you know what...hardly any local resident out in Alps owns a 4 x 4....far too unwieldy on hairpin bends
I am just back from the Alps where we had 2 ft of snow in less than 24 hours. Oooh did I chuckle when I saw a BMW X5 stuck in the snow, whilst numerous 2 wd cars were flying past. Why? Because the latter were equiped with winter tyres.
So NO, 4x4 do not necessarily cope better in the snow !
I am just back from the Alps where we had 2 ft of snow in less than 24 hours. Oooh did I chuckle when I saw a BMW X5 stuck in the snow, whilst numerous 2 wd cars were flying past. Why? Because the latter were equiped with winter tyres.
So NO, 4x4 do not necessarily cope better in the snow !
Parksy
As a Cynic was that a cry for help or desperation with the grossly inferior software given to us and you by Lord Hezza?? LOL
I'm glad you said all that at lunchtime and not midnight. What a cra* job being a Mods.
Cheers
Dustydog
As a Cynic was that a cry for help or desperation with the grossly inferior software given to us and you by Lord Hezza?? LOL
I'm glad you said all that at lunchtime and not midnight. What a cra* job being a Mods.
Cheers
Dustydog
Parksy
Moderator
Thanks for your support Sue, you say the nicest things
Dusty - I would have been guilty of typing under the influence if I'd have attempted to write that lot at midnight lol
Our cries for help on the software front have fallen on deaf ears, Lord Hezza is short of loose change but I suppose that we should be grateful that we have a forum at all what with cutbacks, job losses, doom and gloom.
I don't mind making the best of it but sometimes our lack of software bells and whistles can lead to mods making mistakes (especially me!) and causing problems inadvertently.
Dusty - I would have been guilty of typing under the influence if I'd have attempted to write that lot at midnight lol
Our cries for help on the software front have fallen on deaf ears, Lord Hezza is short of loose change but I suppose that we should be grateful that we have a forum at all what with cutbacks, job losses, doom and gloom.
I don't mind making the best of it but sometimes our lack of software bells and whistles can lead to mods making mistakes (especially me!) and causing problems inadvertently.
Is it not funny that when somebody wants to make a point, they always forget about "all things being equal"
Al of a sudden there comparisons become based on their ultra low mileage, and whom they then compare with are extra high!
and yet its a known fact that the majority the school run small cars spends its life doing just that, racking up a massive 50 to 100 odd miles a week! Not exactly high mileage.
So are these the cars that pollute more than you!
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