Let's hear it for the 4x4?

[g_374369443]

I did an internet search a few days ago and readily found some figures about UK new car registrations with sector percentages.

Sadly I didn't save the actual data but in essence since 1980 we have been registering 1.5 - 2.5 million cars a year

During that time the figures would suggest that cars in the 4x4 category equated to 3-4% on average , peaking in at 8% in 2006 I think.

That suggests that in relative terms the number of so called 4x4 on the road is relatively low.

Granted some of those 4x4 are in the top level of polluters but others are not , some sit only just higher than some family saloons , so there is a broad cross section.

My point is that 4x4s are the not cause of Global warming , the damage was done 200 years ago by our ancestors. Yes high polluting cars will not be helping but dont loose site of the fact that no matter what car you drive its polluting in some way just a little less.

As its been said the car you drive is not the only factor , how you drive , where you drive and how far you drive will all be a factor.

I do 14000 miles a year , my boss , in her Avensis diesel, does close to 40000 a year , despite my high Co2 and her low Co2 she puts out more pollution than me.

Yet no one seems to want to take that into account

When will some actually understand that the tax based on CO2 is not aimed at 4X4s, if that was the case then surely they could tax the use of 4WD as against 2WD. Its based on fuel burned per KM to move a object!

So but your maths head on, what does that tell you.

 

[Thorpedo]

When will some actually understand that the tax based on CO2 is not aimed at 4X4s, if that was the case then surely they could tax the use of 4WD as against 2WD. Its based on fuel burned per KM to move a object!

So but your maths head on, what does that tell you.

Rogerp pointed out the low % of 4x4's on the rd, although to that should be added the large people carriers like mine (sh keep my head down, i'm not publicly persecuted yet) which produce High emmissions and are taxed at

 

[Colinn]

OK, so let's hear it for the Moderators...!!

Many thanks Parksy for throwing so much light on the problems behind the scenes. I for one have always appreciated the thankless job that you moderators do, although on this occasion I confess to a little exasperation.

In my view, any contributor who does resort to personal insult - or who is deemed by you to have done so - should not be surprised or aggrieved if you use your delete option. No argument.

Better to punish the guilty than penalise everyone else!

Thanks again.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi parksy and damian

while we all know the job of moderator is a difficult one to start with made even worse because haymarket will not up date the forum engine and give you the tools to edit post in a more balanced way it has to be said that the delete button is not the only option after threats and persuasion have been used unsucessfully.

of course some topics like the ones on 4x4's sometimes get out of hand because the pro's and anti's have such entrenched views, and it becomes a little heated in the tit for tat knockabout that follows on from some wreck'er posting some comments in order to stiffle the debate and in hope that the whole thread gets deleted "it used to happen a lot on here years ago" but thakfully now not so often.

I would suggest to you both a forth option isolating the ones that try to de-rail a topic by sending an e-mail to them as a warning and then a suspension from the forum if the e-mail is ignored, it has been done before so it is possible.

the rest of the posters could then carry on in a reasonable way without comments like this tread is now closed, or you log on to find that the tread has been axed and with it all the good posts and points raised beforhand.

this is the reason I posted the following" I was also going to say if a caravan forum cannot discuss the merits and the disadvantages of a particular vehicle for towing and the impact that may have in the wider spectrum ie when not actually being used as a tow car without someone taking offence is in my view quite childish stopping and deleting whole posts and threads by the mods is only pandering to their assumptions that it is only their point of view that is valid."

lastly I would only add that parksy's last comment makes my point exactly as this is reason it is done.........."one or two would prefer me to abandon the first two forum tools of persuasion or threats (whichever way you see them ) and just resort to the delete button without any comment."

colin

 

[Parksy]

Hi Colinn and Colin

If I can catch a post in time which as you describe is the odd one out and in danger of stifling debate I sometimes delete it but I then run the risk of the outraged author of the deleted post complaining bitterly on the forum and being joined by other forum members who queue up to have a go at the mod without them having seen what was deleted.

That happened last year in a big way where a member insulted an employee of Swift Caravans and indeed the whole company and the post was deleted immediately.(not by me as it happened, too slow as usual)

I then spent the better part of a week trying to defend myself from the diatribe that followed by members who couldn't possibly have seen the post which caused it all. Catch 22 comes to mind.

I do in fact email members from time to time but I reserve warnings for severe and blatant breaches of the forum rules.

To do that constantly would imho devalue the currency and warnings are saved and can be forwarded to admin which could lead to members being banned.

Admin at Haymarket now handle matters involving forum bans and unlike the old times once a ban is in place it's extremely difficult to reverse these days.

The very last thing that I want to see is any forum member being banned so if I have a moan on the forum within a topic it's done more for the sake of guidance and to show a presence than any serious intent to stop debates.

In actual fact very few posts are actually deleted from the forum.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

now I have got that off my chest I would like to return to the topic, to me a 4x4 or MPV is just a tool no more no less they are built to do a job and may be exelent at what they do.

if I wanted to tow my 20ft T/A (which I do not have) across rannock moor in january or lived down a country lane littered with 2ft pot holes I would use shogun or similar and not a nissan micra likewise if I had 5 kids to transport about I would use a MPV not a fiat punto.

the problem as I see it is one of image,if you like the chelsea tractor type never been off road exept for running up the kerb at tesco's and never had the tyres dirty or the MPV that only ever has one person in it the driver, neither vehicle is used as a tow car or for any other use exept as a status symbol by the owner or for the wife to take the kids 800 yards down the road to school in the summer when a brisk walk would do them more good.

these are the vehicles that the greens are after "not you tow car" unforunatly the whole lot is grouped together so if you have one tough it is pay up and stop moaning, it is unlikley that taxing the chelsea tractor to oblivion will get them off the road cos them in chelsea can afford one at any price and 4in of snow every 6 years isn't a good reason for having one either.

I am just glad we sold the motorhome 3years ago it would have been just too expensive to run and maintain in this economic situation, we went back to a tourer just at the right time being careful to choose the lightest best equipped van we could find and the smallest most economical car possible to tow it with the only moan if there is one is that the car is only 0.1mg above the

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Hi Colinn and Colin

If I can catch a post in time which as you describe is the odd one out and in danger of stifling debate I sometimes delete it but I then run the risk of the outraged author of the deleted post complaining bitterly on the forum and being joined by other forum members who queue up to have a go at the mod without them having seen what was deleted.

That happened last year in a big way where a member insulted an employee of Swift Caravans and indeed the whole company and the post was deleted immediately.(not by me as it happened, too slow as usual)

I then spent the better part of a week trying to defend myself from the diatribe that followed by members who couldn't possibly have seen the post which caused it all. Catch 22 comes to mind.

I do in fact email members from time to time but I reserve warnings for severe and blatant breaches of the forum rules.

To do that constantly would imho devalue the currency and warnings are saved and can be forwarded to admin which could lead to members being banned.

Admin at Haymarket now handle matters involving forum bans and unlike the old times once a ban is in place it's extremely difficult to reverse these days.

The very last thing that I want to see is any forum member being banned so if I have a moan on the forum within a topic it's done more for the sake of guidance and to show a presence than any serious intent to stop debates.

In actual fact very few posts are actually deleted from the forum.

thanks parksy that is very informative and useful

colin

 

[Colinn]

Hi Colinn and Colin

If I can catch a post in time which as you describe is the odd one out and in danger of stifling debate I sometimes delete it but I then run the risk of the outraged author of the deleted post complaining bitterly on the forum and being joined by other forum members who queue up to have a go at the mod without them having seen what was deleted.

That happened last year in a big way where a member insulted an employee of Swift Caravans and indeed the whole company and the post was deleted immediately.(not by me as it happened, too slow as usual)

I then spent the better part of a week trying to defend myself from the diatribe that followed by members who couldn't possibly have seen the post which caused it all. Catch 22 comes to mind.

I do in fact email members from time to time but I reserve warnings for severe and blatant breaches of the forum rules.

To do that constantly would imho devalue the currency and warnings are saved and can be forwarded to admin which could lead to members being banned.

Admin at Haymarket now handle matters involving forum bans and unlike the old times once a ban is in place it's extremely difficult to reverse these days.

The very last thing that I want to see is any forum member being banned so if I have a moan on the forum within a topic it's done more for the sake of guidance and to show a presence than any serious intent to stop debates.

In actual fact very few posts are actually deleted from the forum.

you're the ref Mr Mod - players should never argue with the ref unless they want to suffer further sanctions...!

 

[RogerP]

Colin , you're right its the very popularity of 4x4s thats seen them get targeted.

As I posted earlier until very recently (i.e last couple of years) sales seem to indicate people who purchased 4x4 did so becuse they needed the car to do a job that , as you say , a nissan micra would not.

Casting my mind back to the 1980s the hip car to have was a hot hatch and they got targeted , mostly by high insurance ,but non the less media hyped them up (possible rightly so)

We then found that their poularity declined , and the next target for the NIMBYs were motorbikes because people found that bikes were cheaper and a lot faster etc etc so more on the road.

Then the target went to Mondeo man and White Van man and now we're at 4x4 or Chelsea Tractor man.

The popularity of 4x4s will decline and fall back to a level of people buying one becuase they have need for one to do a job for them.

So that begs the question of which motoring community will be targeted next.

Yummy mummy with the people carrier , young jonny in his 1ltr yaris or will they target Gramps for having a car sat on his drive to go to the post office every Thursday. Your guess is a good as mind but another group of drivers will be targeted and taxed to high hell and back.

 

[Guest]

 

[g_374369443]

Rogerp pointed out the low % of 4x4's on the rd, although to that should be added the large people carriers like mine (sh keep my head down, i'm not publicly persecuted yet) which produce High emmissions and are taxed at

 

[g_374369443]

Colin , you're right its the very popularity of 4x4s thats seen them get targeted.

As I posted earlier until very recently (i.e last couple of years) sales seem to indicate people who purchased 4x4 did so becuse they needed the car to do a job that , as you say , a nissan micra would not.

Casting my mind back to the 1980s the hip car to have was a hot hatch and they got targeted , mostly by high insurance ,but non the less media hyped them up (possible rightly so)

We then found that their poularity declined , and the next target for the NIMBYs were motorbikes because people found that bikes were cheaper and a lot faster etc etc so more on the road.

Then the target went to Mondeo man and White Van man and now we're at 4x4 or Chelsea Tractor man.

The popularity of 4x4s will decline and fall back to a level of people buying one becuase they have need for one to do a job for them.

So that begs the question of which motoring community will be targeted next.

Yummy mummy with the people carrier , young jonny in his 1ltr yaris or will they target Gramps for having a car sat on his drive to go to the post office every Thursday. Your guess is a good as mind but another group of drivers will be targeted and taxed to high hell and back.

Damm it, colin yorkshire. I have just noted I must own a 4x4! And I never knew it.Indeed I must have owned a fair few since 2001!

Otherwise how does one explain how I have had several cars in the highest road tax bracket since then...

Oh that's right I have owed cars that emit more than 225G/km in co2, not one of them has 4WD, but never the less are charged road tax based on emmisions! Indeed what I found strange is how come some 4x4 don't have to pay the same high road tax as others, and indeed as I do?

That's right, I must have forgot, its based on emission of co2, therefore mpg! and not how many wheels are driven!

So one could say instead of" 4x4 s being targeted", that some 4x4 owners feel some sort of self importance, that they only speak of vehicles with 4wd, when talking about road tax rates..Rather than all cars regardless of drive that also have to pay those higher road tax rates!

 

[g_374369443]

Damm it, colin yorkshire. I have just noted I must own a 4x4! And I never knew it.Indeed I must have owned a fair few since 2001!

Otherwise how does one explain how I have had several cars in the highest road tax bracket since then...

Oh that's right I have owed cars that emit more than 225G/km in co2, not one of them has 4WD, but never the less are charged road tax based on emmisions! Indeed what I found strange is how come some 4x4 don't have to pay the same high road tax as others, and indeed as I do?

That's right, I must have forgot, its based on emission of co2, therefore mpg! and not how many wheels are driven!

So one could say instead of" 4x4 s being targeted", that some 4x4 owners feel some sort of self importance, that they only speak of vehicles with 4wd, when talking about road tax rates..Rather than all cars regardless of drive that also have to pay those higher road tax rates!

 

[xtrailman]

le croc

My whife fancies that dyson!

My self i would settle just for the megasuck5000

 

[xtrailman]

Wife rather!

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi g

correct me if I am mistaken but the emissions tax band only came in quite recently, before that it was based on engine size the highest band being over 1585cc for a private car when most tow cars were over 1598cc anyway there was no difference between a 1.6 sierra and a 4 litre jag so I do not understand how you have paid the higher car tax since 2001 I haven't just the yearly budget increases since 1967. untill it was reduced by 50% in the green budget⇨ good on yer gordon

colin

 

[Thorpedo]

You see torpedo, there someone goes again, for whatever reason trying to justify something they cannot, or do not need to, but again using an unfair equation to try to prove the point, and at the same time trying to use a logic that is not based on proper facts.

If your mpv, is taxed at

 

[ScouseIan]

Hi Colinn

I'm sorry, I didn't realise that I had come over as 'disdainful' of discussion. Please accept my apology as I didn't mean to upset you. I certainly didn't mean to be dismissive.

I was just trying to add my bit of viewpoint simply that 'i think' that people are overreacting about the term '4x4'. Its become emotive and that doesn't make sense. As Colin - Yorkshire posted, its just a tool.

I'm new to this forum so I haven't seen what has gone before. I feel like I've arrived at a party when all the booze has gone.

Oh by the way Colin, if you wouldn't mind, call me Ian or 'Scouse Ian' rather than Scouser. I hate that word.

Ian

 

[g_374369443]

Indeed colin, you do need correcting in sorts. The CC roadtax ie over 1500cc under 1500cc, only came in for cars pre 2001 because there were no proper records of co2 emissions before that date.

And indeed prior to that ALL cars were taxed the same regardless, except for when a new ruling also came in for cars at least 25 years old. Which I believe was back in 1998/9. so any car pre 1974 does not pay road tax.

My point is /was, this entire argument about 4x4s being targeted is all hog wash. Many normal vehicles are in high tax brackets too, which the pro 4x4ers for want of a better word seem to totally ignore and miss, when harping on about how unfair they are being treated.

I have yet to see a thread where people towing with, say petrol engines, but 2wd which also have in excess of 225g/km co2, harp on about how unfair it all is!

It seems ONLY those that drive 4x4s in this category go on about it!Or how under certain miraculous conditions their vehicles are greener because.. bla,bla,bla.

I am actually considering buying a shogun,indeed for towing the van. I know the rules, I know the road tax will be dearer, I know it will use lots more fuel compared to the average car.

But i wont be moaning how all unfair it is,or how its all because its a 4x4 cuzz it aint.

 

[MJC]

A couple of weeks ago thought we would change the car. Do the right thing - go for a Volvo C60, more environmentally friendly than my Discovery. After 11 years of Land Rover I couldn't do it. So got a new Discovery. Just come back from Buxton - bit of snow - had to help push a volvo C90 out. All wheel drive!!! No just 4 wheel drive. Worked for years. Still works. The salesman tried to sell me on the fact an AWD works better tan my Land Rover. Can't wait to see him again. Cheers

 

[Gumbo]

The moaning is not about the cost of the road tax alone. It is about how people are being taxed for driving high Emmision Vehicles, when by owning one you have not added to the CO2 in the atmosphere.

Now when you drive a high emmision vehicle it depends on the mileage you drive as to the CO2 you emit.

If Gordon craved credit for being Green why not just increase the tax on Petrol/Diesel then you pay for the damage you do, rather than a blanket tax which does nothing for anyone only Gordon.

No imagination on behalf of the Goverment leads to these feelings of being robbed.

 

[Del_374232870]

Road tax is a tax to use the road, I have a 4x4 and have an annual millage a lot lower than the average user. Why should I pay a higher road tax when I use public transport as much as possible, yet the the person with the small engine car who is to lazy to walk anywhere gets away with

 

[g_374369443]

Gumbo. earlier on i made the point of "bla bla bla"! And below is something quite worthy of our government,but i am quoting you.

"Now when you drive a high emmision vehicle it depends on the mileage you drive as to the CO2 you emit."!!!!!!!!!!!

DOH.. What this does not apply to all vehicles regardless of their emissions being high or low!

Or did you actually mean that most high emission cars actually do less miles? or shorter journeys? or both?

Because if you did, do you have any statistics to back that up?

Well it would be irrelevant even if you did, because the real facts are, most high emission vehicles perform better on long runs as a % of the high co2 levels, which really does not help out your argument, as it also means in those short journeys they are even worse with their co2 than the official figures, which are done with cars at properly warmed up engines!

Of corse you other point concerning adding to the co2 in the atmosphere, I really do not know either way.

 

[Lutz]

If road tax were abolished completely and the same total amount levied through fuel tax, this would result in a proportionate increase in the tax burden on commuters who accumulate relatively high mileages in order to get to their place of work. Many wouldn't have the option of avoiding the increase by using public transport. Whether one considers this to be fair or not is open for discussion.

 

[RogerP]

G ,

I know what your argument is and you are right.

A 4x4 owner complains because people ASSUME only a 4x4 can be a high polluter so we get actively targeted not by government but by Joe 'Eco' Public. Government are cleaver to bracket 'vehicles' into Co2 bands and thus it will encompass any vehicle

Look at say a 3lt V6 petrol saloon and if there we no badges or markings to tell you what it was most people would not consider it to be different to a 1.6 1.8 or 2lt would they? So consequently few people would take umbridge at you.

Yet by their very look most people can tell that a vehicle is 4x4 (or in the style of a 4x4) thus they can markedly target it as a polluter

I'm pretty sure that if said 3lt man described above got singled out he would be saying the same as us 4x4ies.

G , when you get abused in public for the car you own then I will have every sympathy with you , trust me its not pleasant. My little lad was terrified when it happened last year. And the abuser was a middle aged well to do women who swore and banged the windows whilst hurling her attack at me.

Thats why I take issue as a 4x4 owner becuase some people do not see beyond that media hype.

Yes I pollute and more than a Toyata Prius but the Prius still pollutes.