Loss of caravan wheels!

[Lutz]

The vibrations may cause the bolts to loosen but it is the direction of rotation that causes them to unwind. That is why it normally happens on the one side.

There must be more to it than that or else the same would apply to all other vehicles. The only examples that I am aware of with left hand threads on one side and right hand threads on the other were with the old wire wheels that had a single wing nut in the centre.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Clive if we became a Woosie any help getting a awning or canopy we would appreciate it if it wasn"t for our kind neighbours i was struggling with the pegging we gave them a bottle of wine to say our thanks

I’m sure some Woosies will help😎. You must get through a lot of wine on all your travels 😜

 

[littlebasher]

Interestingly, last weekend I had a clear out in my garage and found some caravan wheel bolts off our previous Lunar. They are around 5mm shorter than the nuts that my Swift uses and significantly worse quality.

 

[Buckman]

Interestingly, last weekend I had a clear out in my garage and found some caravan wheel bolts off our previous Lunar. They are around 5mm shorter than the nuts that my Swift uses and significantly worse quality.

Those are the bolts for the steel spare wheel. You could not use the bolts for the alloy wheel on the steel wheel.

 

[otherclive]

Those are the bolts for the steel spare wheel. You could not use the bolts for the alloy wheel on the steel wheel.

My Swift just had one set of wheel fasteners but the torque for alloy wheels was required to be higher than for the steel spare wheel. We’re Lunar different?

 

[Buckman]

My Swift just had one set of wheel fasteners but the torque for alloy wheels was required to be higher than for the steel spare wheel. We’re Lunar different?

Later Lunars did not have a spare set of bolts as our 2011 never had them.

 

[Hutch]

My Coachman does not have different bolts for the Alloys and steel spare.
The alloy wheels bolt down "solid" where as a steel wheel has a raised contact area, the alloys can have a higher torque value, the steel wheel can possibly deform, at the bolt contact point, if the higher torque is applied to the bolts.
Very clever stuff this engineering design.

 

[Gozza2]

My 2009 Ranger also doesn't have different bolts for the steel spare - anyone know if it should have, or would have had originally?

I saw recently on a Bailey-specific forum that the spare should be torqued to the same setting as the main alloys. The manual doesn't specifically state this, but it doesn't give a different torque setting for the spare so I guess that's implied.

 

[otherclive]

My 2009 Ranger also doesn't have different bolts for the steel spare - anyone know if it should have, or would have had originally?

I saw recently on a Bailey-specific forum that the spare should be torqued to the same setting as the main alloys. The manual doesn't specifically state this, but it doesn't give a different torque setting for the spare so I guess that's implied.

Best check with Bailey technical rather than forum comments or by implication. My alloys on a Swift with Alko chassis and hubs had a higher torque for the alloys than for the steel spare. But both alloys and steel used the same bolts. Plus the owners manual gave the required tightening torque for the alloy and steel wheels.

 

[Gafferbill]

For what it is worth and IMO caravan wheel detachment is down to sloppy brake servicing and the design characteristics of the Alko axles.
Alko drum brake servicing unusually requires the removal of the drum for any inspections. The drum also unusually contains the wheel bearing.
This requires two separate critical procedures to reassemble.....torqing of the one shot hub nut and torqing of the wheel nuts/bolts.
Either of these done incorrectly will likely lead to a wheel detachment.

Most vehicles with drum brakes can have brake wear inspected without removing the wheel and drum.
The drum can also be removed without disturbing the bearing to allow a more thorough inspection of components.
Why the Alko design doesn't follow this far more common design has always been a mystery to me.
Most owners don't have the ability to check the torque of the one shot axle bearing nut but they should certainly check the tightness of the wheel nuts after any servicing of the caravan brakes or wheel removal.
They should also check again after they have towed a few miles after the service.
Good caravan workshops will have a procedure to check and sign off the work of the mechanic doing a brake service or wheel removal.

 

[Jcloughie]

For what it is worth and IMO caravan wheel detachment is down to sloppy brake servicing and the design characteristics of the Alko axles.
Alko drum brake servicing unusually requires the removal of the drum for any inspections. The drum also unusually contains the wheel bearing.
This requires two separate critical procedures to reassemble.....torqing of the one shot hub nut and torqing of the wheel nuts/bolts.
Either of these done incorrectly will likely lead to a wheel detachment.

Most vehicles with drum brakes can have brake wear inspected without removing the wheel and drum.
The drum can also be removed without disturbing the bearing to allow a more thorough inspection of components.
Why the Alko design doesn't follow this far more common design has always been a mystery to me.
Most owners don't have the ability to check the torque of the one shot axle bearing nut but they should certainly check the tightness of the wheel nuts after any servicing of the caravan brakes or wheel removal.
They should also check again after they have towed a few miles after the service.
Good caravan workshops will have a procedure to check and sign off the work of the mechanic doing a brake service or wheel removal.

I believe that although the brakes can be adjusted and inspected without removing the hub. Full inspection and cleaning require removal. I have never heard of detachment due to the one shot but failing or not being torqued up properly.

Detachements are far too common, caravans and HGV’s seem most susceptible. HGV owners are very aware and take a lot of care to reduce incidents.

I still maintain that the problem is down to insufficient frictional resistance on the bolt. The problem is less or possibly non exsistant on the continent where bolts are 2mm greater diameter.

Note. It's always the near side (UK), that becomes detached.

John

 

[Martin_E]

I think some of the wheel detachments are down to manufacturers not talking to the wheel suppliers, when all other manufacturers were increasing wheel bolt torque a few years ago (2017 I think) Lunar reduced their wheel torque to 95 Nm for steel and alloy, apparently this was after a consultation with the wheel manufacturers.

I guess different wheel manufacturers may use different grades of alloy, some harder some softer

 

[Buckman]

Remember the old cars where the bolts were part of the hub and you tightened the nut onto the bolt? Maybe it nuts were used instead of bolts this issue would not happen?

 

[otherclive]

Remember the old cars where the bolts were part of the hub and you tightened the nut onto the bolt? Maybe it nuts were used instead of bolts this issue would not happen?

Careful now , my Forester has wheel nuts

 

[Buckman]

Careful now , my Forester has wheel nuts

On which wheel is the nut?

 

[JTQ]

Maybe, as evidenced by the use of extended bolts, as the WSL curing the issue, it is simply down to the standard bolt when used with particular alloy wheels not elastically storing enough energy to keep the friction faces adequately clamped together?
A very frequent issue with bolted joints in dynamic loading situations, well understood and easily addressed, as WSL and Bailey showed. Bolts need adequate "working length" for the application they are used for as well as cross sectional area.

 

[Sam Vimes]

It seems to me a curious problem. If in fact the bolts do come loose during travel, sufficient number would have to become very loose for the wheel to detach and I would have thought there would be a noticeable/feelable wobble to the wheel during travel. Meaning you could stop and have a look at what's going on.

In over 50 years of driving of various cars from the late 50s to present day I've never had a wheel nut come loose. I guess caravan harmonics are probably different than cars.

 

[Buckman]

Maybe, as evidenced by the use of extended bolts, as the WSL curing the issue, it is simply down to the standard bolt when used with particular alloy wheels not elastically storing enough energy to keep the friction faces adequately clamped together?
A very frequent issue with bolted joints in dynamic loading situations, well understood and easily addressed, as WSL and Bailey showed. Bolts need adequate "working length" for the application they are used for as well as cross sectional area.

IMHO the WSL bolts are a workaround at an expense and the original issue has not been addressed?

 

[JTQ]

It seems to me a curious problem. If in fact the bolts do come loose during travel, sufficient number would have to become very loose for the wheel to detach and I would have thought there would be a noticeable/feelable wobble to the wheel during travel. Meaning you could stop and have a look at what's going on.

In over 50 years of driving of various cars from the late 50s to present day I've never had a wheel nut come loose. I guess caravan harmonics are probably different than cars.

The bolts undoing, or turning at all is just the final outcome of the issue, long before that the wheel has come loose, and being held tightly on is the way the rolling loading is taken.
The bolts are only there to clamp the wheel on the hub, not carry the rolling load; it is friction due to the clamping that does the job.

There is a big difference with car and caravan/trailers, in one case you are sat in it sensing much more of what is unfolding.

 

[JTQ]

IMHO the WSL bolts are a workaroudn at an expense and the original issue has not been addressed?

Yes, of course it is, but you have what you have, a design without copious margins to cater for all likely situations, high in this, those owners not checking them early after rolling on the road. [post a wheel reinstalling]

 

[Hutch]

The actual sequence of torqueing up of the bolts of the wheel to the hub, could also be part of the problem.
Some one fitting the hub and just doing up the bolts tight staight away, without tightening in a sequence of either opossite bolts or triangular sequence to 1/2 TORQUE and then again to full torque.

 

[Jcloughie]

It seems to me a curious problem. If in fact the bolts do come loose during travel, sufficient number would have to become very loose for the wheel to detach and I would have thought there would be a noticeable/feelable wobble to the wheel during travel. Meaning you could stop and have a look at what's going on.

In over 50 years of driving of various cars from the late 50s to present day I've never had a wheel nut come loose. I guess caravan harmonics are probably different than cars.

In my situation, on a straight French D road at about 50mph. My first indication of a detachment was seeing the angle of the van change in the mirror. It was still under control and towed nicely onto the verge.

John

 

[Buckman]

The actual sequence of torqueing up of the bolts of the wheel to the hub, could also be part of the problem.
Some one fitting the hub and just doing up the bolts tight staight away, without tightening in a sequence of either opossite bolts or triangular sequence to 1/2 TORQUE and then again to full torque.

Way back in the sixties I was taught the above even before I even started driving at the age of 14.

 

[Raywood]

Later Lunars did not have a spare set of bolts as our 2011 never had them.

We have had two Lunars since yours and both had a set of wheel nuts for the spare.

 

[Raywood]

Way back in the sixties I was taught the above even before I even started driving at the age of 14.

I was taught to start with the nuts all on finger tight and then tighten opposite ones. With five nuts now I do wonder if many just go round clockwise as opposites are no longer possible.