MTPLM - crikey

[Dustydog]

Been there seen it done it !

MIRO is NOT a legally binding number.

Why it features on the caravan weight plate is not recorded or explained anywhere, ie HMG or the NCC.
MTPLM as quoted on the caravan weight plate is the only number we need to be concerned with to remain legal.

13 years ago this very subject was ragged to death on here by most of us

Plated weights question

Does the plated weights MIRO & MTPLM have any legal standing in law as the MTPLM seems to be a phrase only used in the caravan industry. There is no reference to it in the Road Traffic Act or Construction and Use. Also it seems that the plated weight that VOSA would check is the one on the...

forums.practicalcaravan.com

 

[Lutz]

Been there seen it done it !

MIRO is NOT a legally binding number.

Why it features on the caravan weight plate is not recorded or explained anywhere, ie HMG or the NCC.
MTPLM as quoted on the caravan weight plate is the only number we need to be concerned with to remain legal.

The statutory weight plate does not show MIRO. If it does, it's not the statutory weight plate.
The statutory weight plate only shows the maximum allowable noseweight, axle weights and MTPLM.

 

[Dustydog]

The statutory weight plate does not show MIRO. If it does, it's not the statutory weight plate.
The statutory weight plate only shows the maximum allowable noseweight, axle weights and MTPLM.

99% of caravanners wouldn’t know where or what the Statutory weight plate is.

If you purchase an MTPLM UPGRADE plate it’s not the statutory one!
Not much hope for the novice🙀

 

[Lutz]

99% of caravanners wouldn’t know where or what the Statutory weight plate is.

If you purchase an MTPLM UPGRADE plate it’s not the statutory one!
Not much hope for the novice🙀

But if the caravan is subjected to a roadside weight check, the values will be checked against what's on the statutory plate.

 

[otherclive]

Can someone perhaps post photos of statutory weight plates so the uninitiated can see what they look like. We regularly see photos of car statutory plates.

From my perspective I’ve had two caravans upgraded One a 2005 Bailey purchased new and upgraded a year later. The other a 2012 Swift upgraded in 2017. The only things I received were a new sticker for the door, and a letter confirming the upgrade linked to the caravan VIN number. No new plate was ever received.

PS here’s an article from PC on plates. It should be good to keep the thread going until tomorrow at least. Whether it helps the OP resolve his payload issue is debatable. His best course of action has been advised longtemps, get the caravan weighed when full to see if it’s over or under MTPLM.

How to decode caravan plates - Practical Caravan

Baffled by weights and what they mean? Worry not! Here we're talking caravan weight plates – it's everything you need to know, but were afraid to ask...

www.practicalcaravan.com

 

[Buckman]

The only two things that are legally binding are the axle weight and the MTPLM.
There is no legislation anywhere that ever refers to payload, onky axle and gross weights.

Exactly my point! Please note regarding MIRO I was referring to an increase in MIRO that would affect the stated payload offered by the manufacturer which could be a reason to reject a caravan.

It is up to the individual to makes sure that they are within the axle load of the caravan and not MTPLM which is not I have been told is not officially recognised, but is a guideline by manufacturers. Plus of course they need to be within the maximum gross trailer weight of the towing vehicle.

 

[Hutch]

My caravan, 2013 Coachman 560/4 VIP has a stick on plate by the caravan door, quoting the MTPLM as 1645 kg. There is NOT another one inside the front locker. Coachman states the MTPLM cannot be upgraded.
The axle plate states axle max load is 1650 kg. .
I know as an engineer that the axle and chassis can take more load but the regs for that particular caravan is 1645 kg max weight.
Why would I want to try and question the limits from the manufacturer.

 

[Lutz]

Exactly my point! Please note regarding MIRO I was referring to an increase in MIRO that would affect the stated payload offered by the manufacturer which could be a reason to reject a caravan.

It is up to the individual to makes sure that they are within the axle load of the caravan and not MTPLM which is not I have been told is not officially recognised, but is a guideline by manufacturers. Plus of course they need to be within the maximum gross trailer weight of the towing vehicle.

Nowhere did I mention any increase in MIRO, only a possible increase in actual weight. MIRO is a fixed value, valid only for the respective type approval number. If there is a change to the MIRO, the type approval documentation must be amended.
Furthermore, the payload isn't documented anywhere, so the manufacturer doesn't guarantee any particular payload. Just because it may state a certain payload in an owner's manual, it won't be a figure that you are necessarily entitled to claim as a minimum.
All weights on the statutory plate are legally enforceable, including the MTPLM.

Can someone perhaps post photos of statutory weight plates so the uninitiated can see what they look like. We regularly see photos of car statutory plates.

Here's a of photo of a statutory plate that meets all the requirements:

(The owner has deleted the e11 type approval number and, understandably, the VIN from the photo, both of which are, however, required to be displayed on the statutory plate).

My caravan, 2013 Coachman 560/4 VIP has a stick on plate by the caravan door, quoting the MTPLM as 1645 kg. There is NOT another one inside the front locker. Coachman states the MTPLM cannot be upgraded.
The axle plate states axle max load is 1650 kg. .
I know as an engineer that the axle and chassis can take more load but the regs for that particular caravan is 1645 kg max weight.
Why would I want to try and question the limits from the manufacturer.

A caravan built in 2013 was not subject to whole vehicle type approval as that wasn't introduced until 2014, and the plating requirements before that were nowhere nearly as specific.

 

[Dustydog]

My caravan, 2013 Coachman 560/4 VIP has a stick on plate by the caravan door, quoting the MTPLM as 1645 kg. There is NOT another one inside the front locker. Coachman states the MTPLM cannot be upgraded.
The axle plate states axle max load is 1650 kg. .
I know as an engineer that the axle and chassis can take more load but the regs for that particular caravan is 1645 kg max weight.
Why would I want to try and question the limits from the manufacturer.

Same here Hutch, only a weight plate by the door.
But both axles have weight plates 1000kg each.

I believe, not sure , newer model caravans may well have a weight plate inside the front locker near the bulkhead.
Strangely neither Swift nor Bailey offer weight upgrades plates other than those fixed by the door.

Legally I can appreciate the MIRO is irrelevant . However Buckman’s point imo is very valid. If you buy a product and are told the MIRO is X and it turns out to be X+5 then your payload has been eroded and you don’t have what you thought you were buying.
That’s something for a mis selling claim😉

 

[ProfJohnL]

The National Trailer & Towing Association Ltd (NTTA) have usually been accurate in their description of towing issues in the UK

Their web site says about trailer weight plates :-

Trailer Maximum Weights​

Type 01: unbraked trailers - max. 750kg gross trailer weight or half the towing vehicle's kerb weight - whichever is less.

Type 02: trailers on overrun brakes - max. 3500kg gross trailer weight

1982 regulations demand that all trailers, including unbraked ones, must be clearly marked with their maximum gross weight in kg. This may be checked at any time by the police at a weighbridge. Since 1st January 1997, all unbraked trailer plates must show the year of manufacture.

To comply with the D.o.T. Code of Practice for the recall of defective trailers less than 3500kg G.V.W. it is desirable that a trailer should carry a manufacturer's plate clearly showing:

• Manufacturers name and address chassis or serial number and model number
• Number of axles
• Maximum weight per axle maximum
• Nose weight of coupling
• Maximum gross weight (G.V.W.)
• Date of manufacture

 

[otherclive]

Nowhere did I mention any increase in MIRO, only a possible increase in actual weight. MIRO is a fixed value, valid only for the respective type approval number. If there is a change to the MIRO, the type approval documentation must be amended.
Furthermore, the payload isn't documented anywhere, so the manufacturer doesn't guarantee any particular payload. Just because it may state a certain payload in an owner's manual, it won't be a figure that you are necessarily entitled to claim as a minimum.
All weights on the statutory plate are legally enforceable, including the MTPLM.



Here's a of photo of a statutory plate that meets all the requirements:

(The owner has deleted the e11 type approval number and, understandably, the VIN from the photo, both of which are, however, required to be displayed on the statutory plate).

View attachment 9434



A caravan built in 2013 was not subject to whole vehicle type approval as that wasn't introduced until 2014, and the plating requirements before that were nowhere nearly as specific.

So the thread has been going around in circles because the change in process introduced in 2014 wasn’t defined earlier.

 

[Lutz]

Strangely neither Swift nor Bailey offer weight upgrades plates other than those fixed by the door.

They don't have to because the statutory plate will already show the higher MTPLM and the sticker by the door for a so-called upgrade only brings the MTPLM into line with what was already there all the time. Effectively, they don't change the statutory values at all.

Legally I can appreciate the MIRO is irrelevant . However Buckman’s point imo is very valid. If you buy a product and are told the MIRO is X and it turns out to be X+5 then your payload has been eroded and you don’t have what you thought you were buying.
That’s something for a mis selling claim😉

The MIRO never changes, regardless what the actual weight is, so long as the range of actual weight is covered by the same type approval documentation.

The National Trailer & Towing Association Ltd (NTTA) have usually been accurate in their description of towing issues in the UK

Their web site says about trailer weight plates :-

Trailer Maximum Weights​

Type 01: unbraked trailers - max. 750kg gross trailer weight or half the towing vehicle's kerb weight - whichever is less.

Type 02: trailers on overrun brakes - max. 3500kg gross trailer weight

1982 regulations demand that all trailers, including unbraked ones, must be clearly marked with their maximum gross weight in kg. This may be checked at any time by the police at a weighbridge. Since 1st January 1997, all unbraked trailer plates must show the year of manufacture.

To comply with the D.o.T. Code of Practice for the recall of defective trailers less than 3500kg G.V.W. it is desirable that a trailer should carry a manufacturer's plate clearly showing:

• Manufacturers name and address chassis or serial number and model number
• Number of axles
• Maximum weight per axle maximum
• Nose weight of coupling
• Maximum gross weight (G.V.W.)
• Date of manufacture

Thanks for that, Prof, but what you have quoted only applies to trailers built after 1982 but before whole vehicle type approval came into effect in 2014. Besides, the term MIRO wasn't introduced until that date, as there was no equivalent. Before that, actual weight was referred to as unladen weight.

 

[Lutz]

Buckman, to cut a long story short, I think that all along you are talking about MIRO, but mean actual weight (ex-works). Your interpretation is different to that of the manufacturer who has to abide by the legal definition of MIRO which is really only relevant for type approval purposes.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...
Thanks for that, Prof, but what you have quoted only applies to trailers built after 1982 but before whole vehicle type approval came into effect in 2014. Besides, the term MIRO wasn't introduced until that date, as there was no equivalent. Before that, actual weight was referred to as unladen weight.

I don't disagree, but as time goes by, most older caravans built before 1982 (which did not need to comply) are likely retired, and I suspect in the UK there will a very very small percentage of caravans predating 1982. in use.

The changes made in 2014 do not preclude the need for the trailer to have a conforming legal data plate.

It seems the question of what a caravans MIRO or almost any other weight criteria is, is most frequently asked by new caravanners, who don't understand the interactions and legal status of specific limits or criteria.

The process is not helped by the caravan industries trade body the National Caravan Council (NCC) whose purpose is to protect and represent the trades interests (not the public's). The NCC's posture give the impression that it has authority within the industry, in fact it has no legal authority over anyone, and the NCC 's weight limit labels applied to most UK caravans have no legal impact. They are just confusing matters.

 

[Buckman]

Buckman, to cut a long story short, I think that all along you are talking about MIRO, but mean actual weight (ex-works). Your interpretation is different to that of the manufacturer who has to abide by the legal definition of MIRO which is really only relevant for type approval purposes.

I think it is you that ash been taking everyone around in circles and no one else!

 

[Lutz]

I think it is you that ash been taking everyone around in circles and no one else!

If you can show me any piece of substantiated evidence that MIRO is the actual weight of a caravan (or, for that matter, any other vehicle) as it left the factory and which, at the same time, is reconcilable with the following definition as laid down in legislation, I will keep quiet:

(4) ‘mass in running order’ means

(a) in the case of a motor vehicle:

the mass of the vehicle, with its fuel tank(s) filled to at least 90 % of its or their capacity/ies, including the mass of the driver, of the fuel and liquids, fitted with the standard equipment in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications and, when they are fitted, the mass of the bodywork, the cabin, the coupling and the spare wheel(s) as well as the tools;

(b) in the case of a trailer:

the mass of the vehicle including the fuel and liquids, fitted with the standard equipment in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications, and, when they are fitted, the mass of the bodywork, additional coupling(s), the spare wheel(s) and the tools;

 

[RogerL]

The only acid test is to load the caravan for a holiday and take it to a weighbridge - if it's below the MTPLM all well and good - if it's over the MTPLM you can see how much you need to remove - simples!

 

[Buckman]

The only acid test is to load the caravan for a holiday and take it to a weighbridge - if it's below the MTPLM all well and good - if it's over the MTPLM you can see how much you need to remove - simples!

Spot on Roger and agree 100%!

 

[Dustydog]

The only acid test is to load the caravan for a holiday and take it to a weighbridge - if it's below the MTPLM all well and good - if it's over the MTPLM you can see how much you need to remove - simples!

Or dare I say get a MTPLM upgrade plate😁

 

[Lutz]

Or dare I say get a MTPLM upgrade plate😁

Easier and even cheaper if you've got a caravan that was built after whole vehicle type approval came into effect in 2014 and you can find the statutory plate, simply remove the label by the door.