New Caravan Electrical Test - This could effect you !!!!!

[EmmaM]

Hi,

I have heard in the new year some sites will require caravans to prove/produce an electrical safety certificate.

Could someone in the know please tell me what the proposed electrical test involves. How long does it take and what is the likely cost that we are expected to pay for the privilege.

Is this a European Directive or another means to extract cash from those who invest in the UK economy.

Thanks

Emma

 

[Jim_374473646]

I have found this document :-

http://www.nationalcaravan.co.uk/images/resources/TB-2009-017 PIR Testing.pdf
I'm not too sure about the legality of it though.

They quote "In respect of any legal requirements, the Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations (ESQR) 2002, Regulation 25 clearly requires that an electrical installation cannot be connected to the UK public supply unless the supply provider (the Distributor) is satisfied the installation complies with the relevant provisions of the British Standard - BS 7671:2008 - also referred to as 17th Edition Wiring Regulations."

I would have thought that a Caravan is more like an appliance that is "plugged in" rather than "connected to the UK public supply", after all the EHU points are in effect a circuit just like a domestic circuit. I would therefore think that the Caravan could be required to be PAT tested.

Maybe a little further reading of the 17th Edition regs is needed.

Jim

 

[EmmaM]

Jim,

Errrrr if I provide the hot chocolate would you do the bedtime reading

I'm hoping someone on here will be able to put it in simple terms (for me at least).

I would hope that after purchasing a brand new caravan months ago it would meet any legal requirements. These requirements dont just appear courtesy of the tooth fairy. One would hope responsible caravan manufacturers are up to speed and even better have representation on any working/steering groups.

Is it a simple pat test or something more involved. My company has people in to do PAT testing. Takes all of a minutes shouldn't cost much then.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

If it is just a matter of PAT Testing surely this could be provided at the annual service of the van.

 

[Jim_374473646]

If it is just a matter of PAT Testing surely this could be provided at the annual service of the van.

From what I understand, the electrical safety inspection is going to be offered at each annual inspection/service, no doubt at an extra fee. If you don't want to pay the fee they will get you to sign a disclaimer to say that you understand the electrical tests have not been done and the risks involved.

Your van will already be protected by an RCD and MCBs in the mains distribution panel, which along with visual inspection should provide an adequate level of protection.

PAT testing isn't a legal requirement (certainly not in the UK anyway), but is a method of showing due diligence should anything go wrong. No doubt that is what they are pushing the electrical safety certificate for.

Maybe one of the members that is involved in testing/servicing caravans can jump in and give a little more advice.

Jim

 

[Jim_374473646]

Oops, commented rather than replied.

From what I understand, the electrical safety inspection is going to be offered at each annual inspection/service, no doubt at an extra fee. If you don't want to pay the fee they will get you to sign a disclaimer to say that you understand the electrical tests have not been done and the risks involved.

Your van will already be protected by an RCD and MCBs in the mains distribution panel, which along with visual inspection should provide an adequate level of protection.

PAT testing isn't a legal requirement (certainly not in the UK anyway), but is a method of showing due diligence should anything go wrong. No doubt that is what they are pushing the electrical safety certificate for.

Maybe one of the members that is involved in testing/servicing caravans can jump in and give a little more advice.

Jim

 

[Damian]

If it is of any help and makes the situation a bit clearer, here is a copy of the information I have to hand relating to the inspection and test being introduced.

Mutual electrical safety in the UK

Summary

It is a matter of civil law that both parties, the caravan/motorhome owner and the touring park owner, be able to reassure the other as to the satisfactory condition of the mains electrical installations.

The relevant standard is BS 7671:2008 "Requirements for Electrical Installations" (commonly known as the 17th Edition IEE Wiring Regulations), and the paperwork to be offered should be the most recent Periodic Inspection Report ("PIR") or the manufacturer's/installer's original certificate in the case of brand new caravans or motorhomes.

Failure by either party to satisfy the other can be sufficient reason to nullify any contract and be grounds for prosecution in the event of any injury and/or loss.

The supply by a dealer, workshop or mobile engineer of any such PIR is a chargeable addition to the work they undertake. Before inspection, please ensure the customer is aware of this charge and the reasons for the report - touring parks

are legally allowed to refuse connection to the public network where a caravan or motorhome does not hold a valid PIR. The customer may refuse a PIR but a formal refusal, signed by the customer, should always be issued.

Details

The relevant Statutory Instrument is "The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002", as amended.

A PIR, like a vehicle MoT, is valid for one year, provided that nothing changes that substantially affects the condition of the system which was reported on.

Approved Workshop Scheme, Catherine House, Victoria Road, Aldershot, Hampshire GU11 1SS

AWS TB-2009-001 Page 2 of 2

Any engineer who is working on or checking the electrical system of a caravan or motorhome is liable to provide a new PIR irrespective of how recently the previous one was dated or whether any work is done on the system.

Any small works done on a system should be accompanied by a Minor Works Certificate. More extensive work should be covered by an Electrical Installation Certificate.

Any report or certificate can be accompanied by Observations and Recommendations made by the competent person, using the code:

Code

Meaning

1

Requires urgent attention

2

Requires improvement investigation

3

Requires further investigation

4

Does not comply with BS 7671:2008, amended to . This does not imply that the electrical installation inspected is unsafe

Two examples of Code 4 are: old wiring that doesn't have the modern colour coding, especially on the earthing or bonding cables (say green and not green/yellow); and a bonding connection that doesn't have the correct bond label.

An example of Code 2 could be: where 12 V and 230 V cables are running together in a bed box in which it is known that the caravan or motorhome owner stores objects (such as spades) that might damage them, there is the possibility of voltage migration.

 

[DeliDave]

If it is of any help and makes the situation a bit clearer, here is a copy of the information I have to hand relating to the inspection and test being introduced.

Mutual electrical safety in the UK

Summary

It is a matter of civil law that both parties, the caravan/motorhome owner and the touring park owner, be able to reassure the other as to the satisfactory condition of the mains electrical installations.

The relevant standard is BS 7671:2008 "Requirements for Electrical Installations" (commonly known as the 17th Edition IEE Wiring Regulations), and the paperwork to be offered should be the most recent Periodic Inspection Report ("PIR") or the manufacturer's/installer's original certificate in the case of brand new caravans or motorhomes.

Failure by either party to satisfy the other can be sufficient reason to nullify any contract and be grounds for prosecution in the event of any injury and/or loss.

The supply by a dealer, workshop or mobile engineer of any such PIR is a chargeable addition to the work they undertake. Before inspection, please ensure the customer is aware of this charge and the reasons for the report - touring parks

are legally allowed to refuse connection to the public network where a caravan or motorhome does not hold a valid PIR. The customer may refuse a PIR but a formal refusal, signed by the customer, should always be issued.

Details

The relevant Statutory Instrument is "The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002", as amended.

A PIR, like a vehicle MoT, is valid for one year, provided that nothing changes that substantially affects the condition of the system which was reported on.

Approved Workshop Scheme, Catherine House, Victoria Road, Aldershot, Hampshire GU11 1SS

AWS TB-2009-001 Page 2 of 2

Any engineer who is working on or checking the electrical system of a caravan or motorhome is liable to provide a new PIR irrespective of how recently the previous one was dated or whether any work is done on the system.

Any small works done on a system should be accompanied by a Minor Works Certificate. More extensive work should be covered by an Electrical Installation Certificate.

Any report or certificate can be accompanied by Observations and Recommendations made by the competent person, using the code:

Code

Meaning

1

Requires urgent attention

2

Requires improvement investigation

3

Requires further investigation

4

Does not comply with BS 7671:2008, amended to . This does not imply that the electrical installation inspected is unsafe

Two examples of Code 4 are: old wiring that doesn't have the modern colour coding, especially on the earthing or bonding cables (say green and not green/yellow); and a bonding connection that doesn't have the correct bond label.

An example of Code 2 could be: where 12 V and 230 V cables are running together in a bed box in which it is known that the caravan or motorhome owner stores objects (such as spades) that might damage them, there is the possibility of voltage migration.

Am on a Part P course at the moment for houses but you cannot force householder to have an inspection and test nor to sign any refusal form,you also have to ask permission to test RCD as it could fail on test and need replacing to get power back on.

Have been on loads of sites where the electrics are more questonable and you would have to be really unlucky for your RCD and breakers and the sites to all be faulty especially if you polarity test and RCD test as advised on here.I wont be paying extra nor signing any refusal form and if the dealer doesnt like it I'll get someone else to service it.Otherwise ill stick a big solar panel on the roof and use gas and stuff the electric

 

[Woody3]

I may be wrong but I thought that with only a few exceptions (meter tail and earth bonding cable sizes for instance) that IEE Regs were not retrospective. So long as the appliance (or whatever) met the requirements applicable at the time of manufacture or installation it would comply.

Also, the issue of mains entry cables in a locker where they could be damaged should not be an issue - they would be protected by the RCD in the supply post.

Of course I could be wrong.....

 

[dougie_374468830]

I posted on this subject in the "general" forum and was nearly sent to the tower. I have done a couple now and it takes around 4 hours to do, longer if there are faults.

As far as cost goes, i have bolted the pir onto the service and charged

 

[Jim_374473646]

I feel there is a little misinformation being used for the PIR.

It says "cannot be connected to the UK public supply unless the supply provider (the Distributor) is satisfied the installation complies with the relevant provisions of the ......17th Edition Wiring Regulations."

From what I can determine "the UK public supply" means the electricity infrastructure ie; EON, NPower, etc. A caravan park installation is connected to the UK public supply, but the caravans are not. They are connected to the caravan park supply. Just the same as going into a cyber cafe you plug your laptop into the cyber cafes supply.

The caravan manufacturers have a duty to wire their caravans to the standards set out in the current regulations, also any business doing work on the caravans electric also need to comply with the standards, furthermore when a trader sells a caravan he needs to ensure it meets the safety standards, just the same as a second hand shop needs to make sure an electric appliance is safe before they sell it.

There appears to be no legal requirement for any member of the PUBLIC to have any tests or certificates for their own equipment.

What I believe is happening is that because traders have got to get their engineers to go on courses so that they can issue certificates for the vans that they work on or sell, they are now trying to hoodwink the public into thinking they need to have the inspections done as part of the service, thus recouping some of their outlay.

Just as PAT testing is not a legal requirement, all the PAT testing companies make you believe that it is. All that PAT testing does is show that you have taken due diligence in ensuring the appliance is electrically safe.

All that said, there is nothing to stop a caravan park refusing to let you on the site if you don't have the piece of paper, as they can also say they don't want a caravan with an awning, no children, no dogs etc, they make the rules that their guests must abide by.

Jim

 

[Parksy]

I posted on this subject in the "general" forum and was nearly sent to the tower. I have done a couple now and it takes around 4 hours to do, longer if there are faults.

As far as cost goes, i have bolted the pir onto the service and charged

 

[EmmaM]

Hi,

Forgive me but.

Get my annual service today (with an electrical test) then next weekend add few more plugs and alter the wiring etc.

Go on a site with a valid electrical certificate but I potentially have an electrical death trap.

Surely this test is only valid for the day it was tested and given a period up to 3yrs before retesting.

I dare ask whats the point of the test ????? In addition what statistics support the need for this test?

Thanks

Em

 

[readcaravans]

the pir has a form which must be filled in listing the amount of sockets, appliances and lights etc and to which breaker they are wired to. when issued the report is on the installation as it is on the day of test and the technician is responsible for only those items. should a serious incident happen with a incorrectly fitted socket after the report, then technician is not liable and could lead to an insurance company not paying out. when the report is issued the following year any additions will be highlighted and tested.

 

[readcaravans]

the PIR at time of issue is saying that the caravan is safe and conforms and is valid for twelve months. the report tests the rcd`s, earthing, wiring, bonding, sockets, lighting, connections, barriers and enclosures.

i myself have completed the training 5 wks ago run by CITO. pir`s should not be confused with PAT testing (portable appliance testing). the PIR is testing the above and not the appliances themselves, only the connections to them. as part of the PIR appliances have to be isolated ie fridge, charger, heater, fridge etc.

the PIR could take approx 2-3hrs for testing depending on the age and condition of each individual caravan, and then additional time if faults have to be rectified.

 

[xtrailman]

When i was at college, it was the 14th edition regs!

At that time using a 3 core flex to run 240 volts was a no no, if one thing stands out in safety terms, for me its got to be mains leads run for upto 25m though wet grass, puddles etc.

Then the regs were not enforceable by law, not sure if that still applies?

 

[Jim_374473646]

Minor electrical works, not requiring a new separate circuit can be done DIY without the need of any notification, testing or certification.

So it cannot fall foul of your insurance.

Jim

 

[NickinFrance]

It's PA Testing or Portable Appliance Testing not PAT Testing.

 

[Jim_374473646]

It is commonly known as PAT testing though.

Jim

 

[Jim_374473646]

I always found it funny though with the TSB Bank and Escort XR3i Injection LOL

Jim

 

[EmmaM]

Have to say it all sounds a bit of a rip off to me !!

A way to get

 

[Jim_374473646]

Well Emma, according to The NCC they say :-

"The minimum standard for a Competent Person for PIR inspection on Caravans is the certificate "Electrical Competence for Touring Caravans & Motorhomes" issued by the caravan industry training organisation (CITO). This CITO course is the only industry recognised training for electrical competency."

Which again I think you will find is misinformation.

Basically any electrician that is qualified to do domestic PIRs is able to do them, IF they are needed.

Jim

 

[EmmaM]

Jim,

Thanks for your reply but sorry what does that mean? Please no technical jargon

Are you saying I could go to a qualified electricain to get a certificate?

Or are you saying I could go to a qualified electrician PROVIDED he has been on the CITO course.

Please keep it simple for me thanks...

 

[Bryan_374360331]

Don't panic Mr Mainwaring!

 

[Jim_374473646]

A qualified electrician who can sign the certificate/report will do.

He doesn't need to have done a CITO course.

Jim