Actually i would have agree with you Jcloughie about North Sea farms i to found it very interesting i did know myself it was on that scale and more to come .
Robert Llewelyn of Red Dwarf fame has for over 10 years hosted a web site called "Fully Charged" It focuses on a range of technologies that disrupt fossil fuel's dominance.
Whilst it is decidedly biased, it does provide a wide range of information about low emission technologies, and where they are going.
In this particular episode, he addresses a number of the issues and points raised in this thread.
If you interested and have about 18 minutes to spare you might enjoy this.
PS he even mentions caravanning !.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY5WixWwSEQ
Whilst it is decidedly biased, it does provide a wide range of information about low emission technologies, and where they are going.
In this particular episode, he addresses a number of the issues and points raised in this thread.
If you interested and have about 18 minutes to spare you might enjoy this.
PS he even mentions caravanning !.
U.K. to invest £500m in hydrogen. South Korea investing £40 bn, Germany £8bn. Interesting to see where it gets us too.
All U.K. batteries to go to Europe for recycling as we can’t recycle batteries. In Sunday Telegraph letters ( lifted in error Dusty oops) one owner of a 2015 Leaf was getting only 40 range. He enquired a few months back of the cost to replace battery......£7500. He left it but recently decided to go ahead. Price had had risen to near £20000 and no exchange units only brand new replacements. If that’s true then used values will slump after a relatively few years. Will do a search to see if this pricing is valid.
All U.K. batteries to go to Europe for recycling as we can’t recycle batteries. In Sunday Telegraph letters ( lifted in error Dusty oops) one owner of a 2015 Leaf was getting only 40 range. He enquired a few months back of the cost to replace battery......£7500. He left it but recently decided to go ahead. Price had had risen to near £20000 and no exchange units only brand new replacements. If that’s true then used values will slump after a relatively few years. Will do a search to see if this pricing is valid.
Yes but not finding anything on web searches that really validates that price hike. But the letter writer contacted two dealerships. From memory £17500 and £22500 hence my £20000.
Thea Leaf drivers experience (which has not been verified) is a concern, but if the story about there being no exchange units available - only brand new, then it raises the question of why no exchange units? - perhaps they're generally lasting too well and there are insufficient numbers to furnish refurbished units!
According to a www search Nissan warranty their batteries for 100K or 96months. Given that, it suggests the owner must have had one of the early Leaf or done a lot of mileage, if the battery was not covered by warranty.
It looks to me if there is any truth in the story there is more detail that has not been supplied.
One of the facts coming out of the increasing number of EV's is how battery degradation is consistently better than had been written about by scaremongers.
From a practical proposition, if new battery could be charged and gave 250 miles range to day, there are usually some chargers well within that range, As the battery capacity drops over time, over the same time new chargers will be introduced meaning that after 7 years if the battery could only drive 200 miles, there are likely to be several more chargers available within that reduced range as the network spreads.
As most commutes are less than 15 miles each way way, and many will charge overnight, the reduction in range is unlikely to be noticed.
According to a www search Nissan warranty their batteries for 100K or 96months. Given that, it suggests the owner must have had one of the early Leaf or done a lot of mileage, if the battery was not covered by warranty.
It looks to me if there is any truth in the story there is more detail that has not been supplied.
One of the facts coming out of the increasing number of EV's is how battery degradation is consistently better than had been written about by scaremongers.
From a practical proposition, if new battery could be charged and gave 250 miles range to day, there are usually some chargers well within that range, As the battery capacity drops over time, over the same time new chargers will be introduced meaning that after 7 years if the battery could only drive 200 miles, there are likely to be several more chargers available within that reduced range as the network spreads.
As most commutes are less than 15 miles each way way, and many will charge overnight, the reduction in range is unlikely to be noticed.
In Japan Nissan offer refabricated exchange units. That warranty only applies to newer higher battery capacity cars. A 2015 would have 5 years 60k. But there are conditions relating to charge capacity degradation as opposed to a straight defect. But I find it strange for someone to write a letter to a mainstream paper that could be so inaccurate. Maybe works for the opposition 🤐
The article below dated 2018 seems to totally contradict what the “ letter writer” stated. Although it does quote £20 k by relating to 2011. Perhaps it was a slow burning letter writer!!!!! A battery pack at around £2500 every 8 years or so is not expensive overall. May ring the local Nissan dealer for a chat when I’m back from taking a young hedgehog to a rescue Center at Cricklade.
https://www.carsuk.net/cost-of-replacing-the-nissan-leafs-batteries-drops-90-in-seven-years/
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This is what I have been saying all along. EVs are NOT environmentally friendly in the long run. During their lifetime of about 7 years they may be pollution free, but before, during manufacture and after their lifetime of 7 years they cause more damage.
Taking into account current consumer legislation, would any second hand car dealer be keen to trade in a 5 - 7 year old EV knowing that he may have to pay out £10k plus if the batteries start to hassle within 6 years after purchase by the consumer?
You raise a very important point Buckman.
What will the residual values be after seven years?
Those who can only afford say a used ICE certainly will not want the risk of replacing a used EV battery at thousands of pounds😥😥
What will the residual values be after seven years?
Those who can only afford say a used ICE certainly will not want the risk of replacing a used EV battery at thousands of pounds😥😥
Yes, IMO also, if there is no mindset change, the residuals in the "banger" category at least of the present offerings when they degenerate to that, are going to be minimal.
As bangers are bottom basement in value relative to new, the overall depreciation is not going to change much, but its impact will if "write off" is at just 10 years, not what we typically expect as 20 with our present vehicles.
One suspects there will be a battery refurbishment industry popping up, just too large and growing market to ignore, someone will surely exploit it.
As bangers are bottom basement in value relative to new, the overall depreciation is not going to change much, but its impact will if "write off" is at just 10 years, not what we typically expect as 20 with our present vehicles.
One suspects there will be a battery refurbishment industry popping up, just too large and growing market to ignore, someone will surely exploit it.
Thats is scaremongering as most evs have 8 year battery warranty but do better the old leaf battery was guaranteed for 5.he has messed up or missed out perhaps?
It’s already happening in the US battery packs are being refurbished by non OEM companies.
If the 2018 link above is accurate I could live with the £2500 replacement cost if I had had the car from new. After all if it’s offset against servicing cost reductions and increased reliability then obtaining another potential 8 years life would be good. Our Note was 13 years old when we sold it. Although beginning to show its age and no doubt getting to the right hand side of the bath tub curve. Where the cost of a replacement battery would concern me was if I were to buy 5-7 year old pre owned model. But I’m sure that the industry will respond to the needs. If it doesn’t it will die.
Maybe you missed the point about current consumer legislation and dealers selling on second hand EVs as current CRA 2015 legislation would mean that they have to cover the cost of any battery replacement for 6 years. Would they be so keen to trade in a used 5 year or more EV or would they offer rock bottom banger prices on the EV.
I guess none of us can answer that question, but I do know that if we can afford it we will be buying a late model fossil fuel vehicle in about 2017/2018 to carry us across. Currently, we have an 8 year old SUV and a 25 year Corolla. The latter is in excellent condition and will probably last us until 2027/2028!
Thanks, I am aware it is here in the e-bike world where a failing battery renders a bike valueless.
However, there is a whole world even in the UK of motorist bouncing along on a very small budget using bangers, they can get away with servicing and only meet the legal and fuel costs involved.
A replacement EV battery, unless things change massively, is going to be way out of their motoring budgets. And with the timescales of the battery life being discussed, the replacement is coming before current vehicles move into the banger bracket.
If the battery failure is simply loss of capacity, then a replacement battery could be avoided, as many owners will find just a 50 mile range rather than the new 150 odd, [or whatever] becomes "tolerable", if accepting that avoids becoming vehicle less.
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Is that being at all realistic in the powers of CRA, surely it is not dumb to things having a finite life?
What happens now if buying second hand a car with a DPF and 70k on the odometer?
Every one knows the DPF , just like the EV's battery has a finite life; are people putting another 30 k miles on that diesel car, then expecting the trade seller to fit a replacement DPF, FOC, right through the 6 years?
The CRA must have more intelligence that expect the impossible.
The government needs to look at this as if things stay s they are the cars will be replaced when the batteries go as there is no point in paying the prices asked if they are true.
Having said that if the Leaf batteries cost the sums quoted you are looking at near the cost of a new one so that should be untrue. As the Prof says we have not seen anything to back this cost up. I suppose the first question you should ask if buying one is what the batteries cost if you need to replace them.
Having said that if the Leaf batteries cost the sums quoted you are looking at near the cost of a new one so that should be untrue. As the Prof says we have not seen anything to back this cost up. I suppose the first question you should ask if buying one is what the batteries cost if you need to replace them.
The life of an EV is not dictated by the life of a battery, In just the same way the life of an ICE is not dictated by the life of its engine, If necessary batteries or engines can be changed. BUT the data so far shows that EV batteries are lasting much longer than even the manufacturers were expecting.
You really need to check your facts, Doing a like for like whole life environmental comparison between ICE and EV's EV's have a lower overall impact. There are many reputable studies that have drawn the same conclusion.
The CRA does indeed allow up to a 6 year claim period. It does not say that no product must have as new performance for the whole of that period, It does consider the age of a product and some claims have been adjusted accordingly.
In some instances sellers have been able to charge customers for the life of a product they have been able to enjoy.
like wise batteries rarely just 'go' .They appear to be lasting far longer than expected and degrade rather than go and just lolk at Nissan Leafs on ebay. they hold their value really well .just like cars. After 8years theystill seem to be at least 20percent of new price. ish. just like petrols or diesels.
Thanks. I have checked my facts and they happen to be correct in this case and EVs are definitely not as environmentally friendly as they are made out to be. They are actually a retrograde step as previously we had trolley busses & some EVs, with the exception of mobility scooters, which are no more.
Trolley buses are slowly coming back to some cities ie trams, shame we got rid instead of updating but ultimately if we can produce clean electricity to build the eV s and pier them things have got to be better surely? No they're not the end of answer but it is a start. Something has go be done.
Many continental and overseas cities never got rid of their trams and they do a fantastic job moving large numbers of people around the cities. Albeit sometimes at the inconvenience to motorists.
All ours had overhead lines. Often saw conductor getting off the bus to move the hooks to the new path of cable. Many used a common line down a main road, but the lines then split so one could go straight on the other turned down another road.
All the overseas “ trams” not trolley buses I’ve seen have overhead electric supply and go on rails.
I have been talking to sales and service at a Nissan main dealer in west Wiltshire about the cost to replace a 40kwh battery. They could not give a price as it’s not on the system. But they did tell me it’s not like replacing the battery in your torch. There’s other parts likely to be required as well as labour I was told. Yes I said “ like a clutch or gearbox then”. I now know how my wife feels when car and caravan salesmen are condescending
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The correct word I should have used was trams and not trolley busses. Come to think about it weren't trolley busses on rails?
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