No new diesel cars after 2030

[otherclive]

Catalysts do nothing for vehicle CO2 other than converting CO to CO2. Gas boilers will like ICE be with us for years to come. The government announcement was re new installation from 2023. But seeing the disruption and cost associated with ground source heat pumps I can only wonder how many houses can even physically accommodate such works. Air source heat pumps are an option but less efficient. The answer is a mix of techniques and fir older or more congested properties gas boilers running on a mix of gas/ hydrogen will reduce overall CO2, ( plus improved insulation) before translating eventually to all electric heating. We installed all electric in a house in Plymouth back in the mid 70s. It was great multi zones programmes and individual thermostats. But boy was it expensive back then.

 

[Buckman]

Nuclear energy is clean. Coal and oil have killed far more people through extraction, process, pollution and accidents. In fact Ted Kennedy killed more people at Chappaquidik than did Three Mile Island. The nuclear waste requires disposal and plants require dismantling to segregate the waste streams. You really should read the Wikipedia article above which has some very balanced sections from well respected institutions. An EV converts its battery energy to motive power far more efficiently than dies a fossil fuelled vehicle.

What you really need is one of these berthed in a river or canal close by. A SMR transporter. 😀

View attachment 934

What do they do with the nuclear waste? Recycled it so that is nice and environmentally friendly?
Unfortunately we can all speculate but none of us will come up with the solution. Perhaps sometime in the future when we are all dust. LOL!

 

[otherclive]

What do they do with the nuclear waste? Recycled it so that is nice and environmentally friendly?
Unfortunately we can all speculate but none of us will come up with the solution. Perhaps sometime in the future when we are all dust. LOL!

This may help in understanding the waste issue.
https://nda.blog.gov.uk/2020/01/10/how-much-radioactive-waste-is-there-in-the-uk/

 

[Dustydog]

Back in 1999 we had a day out at Sellafield. Tony Blair’s government had arranged for its decommissioning.
A change of Government saw George Osborne authorise a number of gas fired power stations.
Hopefully by 2030 all our power will come from renewables but is that a realistic prospect?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Back in 1999 we had a day out at Sellafield. Tony Blair’s government had arranged for its decommissioning.
A change of Government saw George Osborne authorise a number of gas fired power stations.
Hopefully by 2030 all our power will come from renewables but is that a realistic prospect?

The route a 100% renewables would only be practical if two other factors are satisfied. The first is that properties reduce their energy usage (i.e Increase insulation and improve efficiency of other uses). The second is to have grid wide and or local power storage to cover peaks, and period when the source is less active (Car to Grid comes to mind).

Just for safety for essential services like Hospitals or other continuous processes there needs to be some generation that is not reliant on environmental conditions.

 

[otherclive]

Back in 1999 we had a day out at Sellafield. Tony Blair’s government had arranged for its decommissioning.
A change of Government saw George Osborne authorise a number of gas fired power stations.
Hopefully by 2030 all our power will come from renewables but is that a realistic prospect?

The gas fired stations tend to be for peak demand times and are relatively low power output. They were required as dirty coal and oil fired stations were to be closed down and renewables and nuclear weren’t sufficient to meet demand predictions. Now we even have days when there is no fossil fuel electricity generated, such is the progress.
The list below details. But today lots more renewables are on line so those stations are used less and less. Almost uneconomic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_gas_fired_power_stations_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

[Gafferbill]

I already have my house heated by a gas boiler that is now banned and illegal for new installations.
I suspect I will continue the personal trend and have diesel cars long after new ones are banned.
My current diesel tow car has it's 20th birthday soon ........no plans to replace it

Gas boilers are not banned and new ones are still being installed. Most if not all new gas boilers are designed to work on natural gas, a mix of natural gas and hydrogen or hydrogen. Trials are underway in parts of UK where a gas/ hydrogen mix is being tested.

..............I didn't write that domestic gas boilers are banned.

I wrote that a gas boiler as fitted to my house are now banned for new installations.
It is of a design that is 46 years old.

 

[JezzerB]

Catalysts do nothing for vehicle CO2 other than converting CO to CO2. Gas boilers will like ICE be with us for years to come. The government announcement was re new installation from 2023. But seeing the disruption and cost associated with ground source heat pumps I can only wonder how many houses can even physically accommodate such works. Air source heat pumps are an option but less efficient. The answer is a mix of techniques and fir older or more congested properties gas boilers running on a mix of gas/ hydrogen will reduce overall CO2, ( plus improved insulation) before translating eventually to all electric heating. We installed all electric in a house in Plymouth back in the mid 70s. It was great multi zones programmes and individual thermostats. But boy was it expensive back then.

Sorry Clive yes me being thick or not thinking before posting-but the country does need to get off gas if it's to reduce CO2 emissions-we are oil sadly (very very very cheap at mo though) and I have looked at air source heat pumps but at 11k for a system that is then going to be far from toasty in the winter days I would prefer hybrid-small oil perhaps and air source but since a new oil boiler is 4k i think we'll be sticking with it for the time being. May be they'll get better/come down in price. in the mean time charger is going in for our electric mini as I type! 7kw.
On another note does anyone know why there seems so much reluctance to generate power via water-the WElsh system works well but the water has to be pumped back up-what about all these lovely water wheels and mills with the chutes and channels already installed-that guarantee water even if it's really dry? Surely a wheel attached to a alternator or whatever they

 

[Beachball]

Flowing water creates energy that can be captured and turned into electricity This is called hydroelectric power or hydropower . The most common type of hydroelectric power plant uses a dam on a river to store water in a reservoir ..... Nature supplies alot if allowed

 

[JezzerB]

I know that is my point we simply don't make Good enough use of it,In spite of our history when it was used a lot.watermills etc cragside was a case in point, ran his house on hdroelectricity and batteries. The Queen visited to see what it was all about. They've put a modern corkscrew type one in but there are hundreds across the country in various states of repair. Cannot understand it, opportunity going begging.

 

[otherclive]

I know that is my point we simply don't make Good enough use of it,In spite of our history when it was used a lot.watermills etc cragside was a case in point, ran his house on hdroelectricity and batteries. The Queen visited to see what it was all about. They've put a modern corkscrew type one in but there are hundreds across the country in various states of repair. Cannot understand it, opportunity going begging.

I agree your point and don’t forget that of the very early vehicles a lot used electric propulsion, but battery power was poor so steam and ICE leapt ahead. Has the wheel turned full circle? As an aside rose growers and gardeners bemoaned the demise of horse drawn transport 🤭🤭

 

[Buckman]

I know that is my point we simply don't make Good enough use of it,In spite of our history when it was used a lot.watermills etc cragside was a case in point, ran his house on hdroelectricity and batteries. The Queen visited to see what it was all about. They've put a modern corkscrew type one in but there are hundreds across the country in various states of repair. Cannot understand it, opportunity going begging.

Is there a reason why the UK is not keen on using hydropower? After all if drought stricken countries like Zambia, Zimbabwe, South Africa and Mozambique manage on hydropower, the UK with its high rainfall could do better?

 

[JezzerB]

I agree weird.

 

[otherclive]

Is there a reason why the UK is not keen on using hydropower? After all if drought stricken countries like Zambia, Zimbabwe, South Africa and Mozambique manage on hydropower, the UK with its high rainfall could do better?

I think that it’s because their rivers are huge and the economics of scale make it attractive.

 

[JTQ]

Because over much of the UK the available energy is very fragmented into many "low value" streams brooks etc, with little potential head. The latter aspect making it very difficult to harness. the former difficult to put in all the multitude of generators.
Where we have "high value energy" sources, real mountains in wet areas, we do.

 

[Buckman]

I think that it’s because their rivers are huge and the economics of scale make it attractive.

The rivers may be huge when flowing, but during a drought which can last several years the flow can be very low i.e. Kariba and Caborra Bassa dams. Also the electric needs to travel over thousands of miles to get to the various cities.

JTQ mentions that the UK has numerous fragmented streams and brooks however the UK does have rivers that are wide, deep, navigable due to large volume of water.
There are the Elan valley dams feeding Birmingham surely these could have produced a lot of hydropower?

 

[otherclive]

The rivers may be huge when flowing, but during a drought which can last several years the flow can be very low i.e. Kariba and Caborra Bassa dams. Also the electric needs to travel over thousands of miles to get to the various cities.

JTQ mentions that the UK has numerous fragmented streams and brooks however the UK does have rivers that are wide, deep, navigable due to large volume of water.
There are the Elan valley dams feeding Birmingham surely these could have produced a lot of hydropower?

There is hydro power on the Elan dams and some additional power turbines are going into the catchment. But it is relatively small compared to the large overseas dams with their huge catchments. In Lynne Brianne near CCC Rhandirmwyn there’s been hydro fir a long while and a second turbine house is being built downstream. But although there’s a very good head from the reservoir the flows have to be controlled as it’s prime purpose is to supply water and of course the river flow has to be controlled too. I guess in UK the business case for the capital investment still benefits wind and solar.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hydro power seems such a good idea, but there's a lot more to it than just damming a water course and putting in turbine. Its also perhaps surprising how much water volume and head height to produce practical quantities of power.

How much hydropower power can I get - Renewables First

Power is the rate of producing energy. Hydropower power is measured in Watts or kiloWatts. Energy is what is used to do work and it is energy that is sold.

www.renewablesfirst.co.uk

calculates
"A standard micro hydro system (where water is channelled in a pipe) should have at least 50% overall efficiency, after all losses. A small low-head turbine could generate about 1 kilowatt (1000 watts) from a flow of 100 litres per second dropping through 2 metres"

We might have loads of streams, but very few of them would produce a practical amount of power for a home.

There are also ecological concerns, as they obstruct water courses, which are natural routes for various forms of life.

Very careful planning is needed.

 

[Buckman]

There is hydro power on the Elan dams and some additional power turbines are going into the catchment. But it is relatively small compared to the large overseas dams with their huge catchments. In Lynne Brianne near CCC Rhandirmwyn there’s been hydro fir a long while and a second turbine house is being built downstream. But although there’s a very good head from the reservoir the flows have to be controlled as it’s prime purpose is to supply water and of course the river flow has to be controlled too. I guess in UK the business case for the capital investment still benefits wind and solar.

Thanks for a very informative answer. I guess the rest is mainly because the UK is so flat therefore difficult to build large dams however the flow of water is there so surely no need to build massive dams.
Surely preferable to use the natural flow of many of our rivers even if there are several small hydropower stations in an area like for example the southwest. Each station supplies a small area. They will be a lot more environmentally friendly than these unsightly windmills.
Then of course are the huge tide differences in the Severn estuary as the tide can ebb and flow by I am told up to 30m or more?

 

[otherclive]

Thanks for a very informative answer. I guess the rest is mainly because the UL is so flat therefore difficult to build large dams however the flow of water is there so surely no need to build massive dams.
Surely preferable to use the natural flow of many of our rivers even if there are several small hydropower stations in an area like for example the southwest. Each station supplies a small area. They will be a lot more environmentally friendly than these unsightly windmills.
Then of course are the huge tide differences in the Severn estuary as the tide can ebb and flow by I am told up to 30m or more?

I really do feel that the Severn schemes should have merited more attention. As well as the barrage there have been schemes for tidal lagoons which are claimed to be more environmentally friendly. But any country that takes 30 odd years or so to decide to bury a relatively short stretch of road, or now is considering mothballing the Cross-rail, talks the talk on infrastructure but doesn’t walk the walk. It can’t all be left to private investment.

 

[Dustydog]

I really do feel that the Severn schemes should have merited more attention. As well as the barrage there have been schemes for tidal lagoons which are claimed to be more environmentally friendly. But any country that takes 30 odd years or so to decide to bury a relatively short stretch of road, or now is considering mothballing the Cross-rail, talks the talk on infrastructure but doesn’t walk the walk. It can’t all be left to private investment.

Sadly Clive our Politicians change their minds on everything once in power. I said it earlier about nuclear power stations. On off on off🤬Post Covid there won’t be much private investment left, within the UK.
Maybe rather than worrying about no new ICEs after 2030 we should be worrying if we will have any worthwhile economy left post Covid-19.

 

[otherclive]

Sadly Clive our Politicians change their minds on everything once in power. I said it earlier about nuclear power stations. On off on off🤬Post Covid there won’t be much private investment left, within the UK.
Maybe rather than worrying about no new ICEs after 2030 we should be worrying if we will have any worthwhile economy left post Covid-19.

Sadly Dusty I think you are right. The Chancellor in his guarded statements has certainly sounded a few warning bells.

 

[JezzerB]

Thanks all for the great explanations, interesting and v informative

 

[ProfJohnL]

Several posts have declared that Wind turbines cause considerable environmental damage, making them less suitable than (edit) other generation means . Every human activity produces some ecological effect, so nothing has a zero impact. So its a question of the relative amounts compared to other generation methods.

In this instance I'm going to point to a Wikipedia page

Environmental impact of wind power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Whilst it is always wise to treat this source with care, in this case I believe the article is essentially correct.

The suggestion also claims installation costs of wind power are not economic. The evidence of so many wind farms both on and off shore seems to disprove that notion.

There are also plenty of studies that show the financial and ecological balances, and how Wind and Solar generation are far far better options than building coal oil or gas generation sets.

Nothing humans do has a zero effect on the environment, consequently what we need to do is to find the options that minimise our negative effects. Cost or convenience should not always drive our choices. and sometimes we may need to change habits of a lifetime.

 

[Jcloughie]

I recently watched the ‘wind’ exposed of this BBC series. I found it to be an eye opener, I had no idea that out North Sea farms were on this scale with plans for much more.

Worth a look for sure.

John