No new diesel cars after 2030

[otherclive]

The thing to remember with hybrids is that the engine isn't a plain old 4stroke engine like in an ICE car. These engines run on the Atkinson cycle, which basically is much lower performance (but higher efficiency) because the requirement is for battery charging rather than providing direct motive power. The fundamental difference with Atkinson cycle engines is that the exhaust pressure is much lower than with other engines

Those modern hybrids that run on the Atkinson cycle are really simulating the Atkinson cycle by using variable valve timing to adjust the effects of different stroke lengths as used by Atkinson. So the basic hybrid engines are in fact pretty standard ICE without the mechanical complications found in the real Atkinson cycle engines.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The thing to remember with hybrids is that the engine isn't a plain old 4stroke engine like in an ICE car. These engines run on the Atkinson cycle, which basically is much lower performance (but higher efficiency) because the requirement is for battery charging rather than providing direct motive power. The fundamental difference with Atkinson cycle engines is that the exhaust pressure is much lower than with other engines

This not true for all hybrids, I think it only applied to those where the actual drive is only electric, and there is no mechanical connection of teh engine to the wheels. The VAG PHEV's use a 1.4l turbo petrol which does drive the wheels, but a motor is attached and can drive, or used to charge the battery

There are several different flavours of hybridicity (is that a word?) and not all use the Atkinson engine.

 

[Dustydog]

Interesting the new VW Tiguan now comes with a Budack engine .Similar to the Atkinson. Both rely on longer valve openings to create lower compression ratios which allegedly extract more power per unit of fuel.
Even with the threat of 2030 vehicle manufacturers are still thinking outside the box and putting new ideas into production👏👏👏.
You never know but it may still be possible by 2030 we will have a zero emissions ICE👍👍

 

[Raywood]

This may be true, but its not comparing apples with apples, becasue you are including the manufacture of the motive power battery, for which there is no equivalent in a ICE vehicle. That is why you have to look at whole life considerations, and therefore you have to factor the costs of finding and getting fuel from the ground to the ICE car, and of course the costs of generating the electricity for EV's. When all these factors are taken into account the full benefits of EV's improve over time.

Not sure I agree. The batteries are part of the car and need to be considered. There is also the question of disposal at the end of their life that has still to be tackled.

 

[Beachball]

Interesting the new VW Tiguan now comes with a Budack engine .Similar to the Atkinson. Both rely on longer valve openings to create lower compression ratios which allegedly extract more power per unit of fuel.
Even with the threat of 2030 vehicle manufacturers are still thinking outside the box and putting new ideas into production👏👏👏.
You never know but it may still be possible by 2030 we will have a zero emissions ICE👍👍

Hi Dusty the Budack engine in the VW Tiguan is that in a petrol/ diesel engine TSI and like you say it could be interesting

 

[Dustydog]

Beachball .I believe it is petrol.

 

[Beachball]

i will put it on the list but it be interesting to see how it goes because that should pull a caravan .hopefully .

 

[Raywood]

I think the magazine might get a list of available models and compare them to see what is suitable.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Not sure I agree. The batteries are part of the car and need to be considered. There is also the question of disposal at the end of their life that has still to be tackled.

The fact an EV has to have a battery isn't in question. but the way the ecology of the system adds up is rather different to that of an ICE vehicle.

With an EV the build of a the battery has to take place before the vehicle can run. That means the ecology and cost of the construction is loaded onto the vehicle. Its significantly lower ecological load of the generating the power to charge the battery and the efficiency of the electric drive throughout the life of the vehicle that brings the benefits. It has to bee seen as a long term pay back.

ICE vehicles are cheaper to produce (due to the processes that legacy manufacturers have to work with) and the fuel system is simple and has a lower build cost and ecolgical load than building a battery. But unlike batteries, everytime you full up with combustion fuel, you have the ecological costs of extracting, refining and transporting the fuel to the vehicle - each and every time.

Add to that the inefficiency of ICE and the pollution they spread, the benefits of EV from an ecological perspective ae better than ICE and improve over distances.

Every vehicle adds an additional ecological load with servicing and any repairs or replacements, but the evidence is that in terms of drive components EV's long terms costs are considerably lower than ICE.

I do not discount the problems of battery disposal, but it is far from as bad some contributors would have us believe. First of all batteries in EV's usually do not fail catastrophically. they degrade, but even here the rates of degradation are far lower than had been expected. Most manufacturers now offer battery warranties of 100K plus, and of course most last much longer. That is on a par with the warranties for ICE vehicles, but within that period ICE engines will have probably had several services and some replacement parts, either by normal wear and some because of failures, not to mention oil + filter changes . (I exclude non drive train related issues from this comparison)

When a battery is no longer suited to be deployed in an EV, it does not automatically mean it has to be destroyed, it has many other potential uses. ICe engines if the are no longer usable, a few parts may be reusable but basically they are scrapped.

Even if a battery or an engine needs to be replaced, they both incur material and ecological costs, so they are not to far apart there either.

I have never claimed EV's are zero emissions, (though undoubtedly they are zero tail pipe emission) and they are not the complete answer to saving the planet , but every reputable study has concluded EV's have a lower whole life impact than ICE on the environment.

 

[JezzerB]

Nissan are using their batteries for home battery systems for solar-they extract the good cells apparently and their systems are very reasonably priced-battery panels and controllers, for LEaf owners apparently!

 

[Dustydog]

Winding back a bit I think the general consensus is EVs are green in the broadest sense. However their long term residual values remain an obstacle. The ability of the general public to afford to take on a high mileage one with the potential battery replacement cost will be the deciding factor long term🤔

 

[ProfJohnL]

Winding back a bit I think the general consensus is EVs are green in the broadest sense. However their long term residual values remain an obstacle. The ability of the general public to afford to take on a high mileage one with the potential battery replacement cost will be the deciding factor long term🤔

I do agree there may well be reticence in the perceived light of high battery replacement costs. There is uncertainty about how high those costs might presently be, but there is little doubt those costs will fall as battery production improves.

The reality is the batteries already in use do deteriorate as the number of charging cycles increase, but they don't just stop working the charge capacity reduces, and for many people that may not be a real issue if they recharge every night.

Even if a battery did need to be replaced, the cost does look high, but if you work out the real economies of the savings you make on fuel costs and tax over the life of the battery against the mileage, the costs are not that different to purchasing a replacement ICE engine and fuel for the same distance .

I suspect that we may well see "refurbished " batteries being offered by third party companies which will bring battery replacement costs down to be more comparable to reconditioned ICE units.

 

[Gafferbill]

.....according to Elon Musk batteries to power electric vehicles will not be the long term future.
He predicts the super capacitor will dominate as soon as the technology is perfected.
China already has a fleet of buses using super capacitors to store electrical energy.
These buses rapidly recharge when the stopping to pick up passengers.

 

[Jcloughie]

Even if a battery did need to be replaced, the cost does look high, but if you work out the real economies of the savings you make on fuel costs and tax over the life of the battery against the mileage, the costs are not that different to purchasing a replacement ICE engine and fuel for the same distance .

On similar lines, I watched a documentary on the new electric London cab. All looked good except for its very poor range. I was left wondering why, with that vehicle, given it‘s purpose. Didn’t they install the batteries as a pack slotted below the floor that could be changed as required at dedicated centres. Just like changing the battery on a drill buy using a fork lift.

Same could be said for delivery vans. Perhaps I am ahead of my time!

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

On similar lines, I watched a documentary on the new electric London cab. All looked good except for its very poor range. I was left wondering why, with that vehicle, given it‘s purpose. Didn’t they install the batteries as a pack slotted below the floor that could be changed as required at dedicated centres. Just like changing the battery on a drill buy using a fork lift.

Same could be said for delivery vans. Perhaps I am ahead of my time!

John

The London Taxi has a well documented history and most that run within the city do less than 70miles a day. This was almost certainly one of the reasons the company chose its limited range. However occasionally longer journeys may be needed such as to and from the airports so they added the range extending engine, which only charges the battery if needed. I believe that gives a total range of about 350 miles.

In London and probably in other major cities, many taxi's are owned by the driver, so the expectation is the car will be charged whist the driver is at home. There are discussions with city, to install charging points at taxi ranks.

In terms of delivery vans, LEVC who make the iconic design of electric taxi are producing a delivery van using the same basic design as the taxi, and is due to start client trials soon.

VN5 - Electric Van | LEVC

Up to 830kg Gross Payload & 5.5m³ Cargo Capacity. Greater Uptime & Increased Productivity. Perfect for inter & intra-city operation.

www.levc.com

 

[Jcloughie]

The London Taxi has a well documented history and most that run within the city do less than 70miles a day. This was almost certainly one of the reasons the company chose its limited range. However occasionally longer journeys may be needed such as to and from the airports so they added the range extending engine, which only charges the battery if needed. I believe that gives a total range of about 350 miles.

In London and probably in other major cities, many taxi's are owned by the driver, so the expectation is the car will be charged whist the driver is at home. There are discussions with city, to install charging points at taxi ranks.

In terms of delivery vans, LEVC who make the iconic design of electric taxi are producing a delivery van using the same basic design as the taxi, and is due to start client trials soon.

VN5 - Electric Van | LEVC

Up to 830kg Gross Payload & 5.5m³ Cargo Capacity. Greater Uptime & Increased Productivity. Perfect for inter & intra-city operation.

www.levc.com

On the programme I saw it was the drivers who were complaining about the useless electric range. Going onto an engine defeated the object for them particularly as the initial price was so high. Some of the taxis are shared and can have two or three drivers to extend the scope of use.

I took a taxi in London a couple of years ago and the cabbie said he lived 20 miles away. That's 40miles out of his charge before he starts work.

There may well be technical reasons against my suggestion, but I still think I am ahead of the curve on this.

John

 

[Dustydog]

As plug in hybrids will still be allowed after 2030, using an ice, maybe one of them may be ok for a tow vehicle? Not sure if it’s petrol or diesel?

 

[otherclive]

.....according to Elon Musk batteries to power electric vehicles will not be the long term future.
He predicts the super capacitor will dominate as soon as the technology is perfected.
China already has a fleet of buses using super capacitors to store electrical energy.
These buses rapidly recharge when the stopping to pick up passengers.

A link that I posted above on trolley buses showed quite a number have capacitive energy banks. This allows them to go into areas not served by the overhead lines and recharge quickly.

 

[ProfJohnL]

You never know but it may still be possible by 2030 we will have a zero emissions ICE👍👍

Sorry to jump back to this post, but this last sentence I'm afraid will never happen. By the definition of ICE - Internal Combustion Engine, means that fuel will combust inside the engine, and will need to exhausted to make way for the cycle of oxident, and fuel. It would impractical to retain all exhausted gases in the vehicle.

 

[Beachball]

I Like the look of this Toyota Rav 4 Hybrid Auto AWD petrol towing limit 1650KG it looks interesting but i think it will be out of my budget

 

[otherclive]

I Like the look of this Toyota Rav 4 Hybrid Auto AWD petrol towing limit 1650KG it looks interesting but i think it will be out of my budget

Interesting. Do you know what the kerbweight is?

 

[Dustydog]

Sorry to jump back to this post, but this last sentence I'm afraid will never happen. By the definition of ICE - Internal Combustion Engine, means that fuel will combust inside the engine, and will need to exhausted to make way for the cycle of oxident, and fuel. It would impractical to retain all exhausted gases in the vehicle.

Nothing in science is impossible Prof.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Nothing in science is impossible Prof.

I'm not holding my breath

 

[Beachball]

Interesting. Do you know what the kerbweight is?

The Kerbweight for a Toyota Rav4 Hybrid Auto AWD is from 1654kg minimum - to 1725kg maximum which includes a driver and fuel

 

[otherclive]

The Kerbweight for a Toyota Rav4 Hybrid Auto AWD is from 1654kg minimum - to 1725kg maximum which includes a driver and fuel

Thank you.
Even if you didn’t use its max towing load it could still tow a useful size ( weight) caravan.
Be interesting to see a PC or Clubs’ ’ review when one is available for testing.