p.i.r inspection

[Surfer]

As a folow up I found these. If you read

This

first and then read

This

Draw your own conclusion as the first link says "installtions covered by BS EN 1648-1 and BS EN 1648-2. it is my interpreattation that touring caravans arfe exempt as a result.

Moderator Edit:

I converted the text to clickable links

 

[vernon]

I agree with Ian, the outcome will probably be that static caravans and touring caravans for hire will need a PIR for insurance cover etc., after all if you hire something and it injures you can sue the hiree.

Also caravans offered for sale at a dealer will require a PIR, before sale to prevent unsafe caravans being sold to the public, hence Reads and other dealers entering training programmes.

Owners own use caravans will not need a PIR because if anything happens to injure you (mouse damage etc), who are you going to sue? - yourself!

 

[Surfer]

This was posted on another forum in 2008 by a representative of a well known caravan company.

just to be honest a caravan is exempt for 16th or 17th edition mains. the working party which i am a member of, established this with CITO, the NCC and an expert university lecturer who we asked to attend to advise our working party. it is a myth that caravans are included. there is no formal qualification required to work on caravan electrics just a competent person. and i know people will come on and argue this fact, but as far as the industry is concerned this is fact. quite worrying really. so this is why we are now rolling out a 3 day course, recognised by the NCC, which will cover caravan electrics and give a recognised certification. dont get me wrong if someone is 16th or 17th they are over qualified for caravans and therefore ok.

Perhaps the representative is reading this forum and maybe they would like to comment?

 

[Paulpro]

Taken from the Caravan Club Practical Leaflet:-

To be safe, a caravan's mains wiring installation

should be carried out by an electrical expert (3) and

you should have an inspection and written report

once every three years (4). A new caravan will have

mains wiring installed correctly if it has an NCC (5)

certificate. Whether buying new or secondhand

always demand to see a recent ELECTRICAL

INSPECTION certificate.

Looks like it might not be mandatory but has always been part of 'caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware).

 

[SteveW77]

As I rarely stay on caravan sites in this country, it will not bother me a lot. I will just take all my holidays on the continent where they ignore this kind of semi-official clap trap, infact they tend to ignore even the official clap trap as well. Something I think we would be well advised to do unless we want to be engulfed by these money seeking empire building clowns who have nothing better to do than find ways to stop ordinary people enjoying themselves.

Steve W

 

[Gafferbill]

Whatever you do.......don't leave your 'reverse polarity adapter' in your caravan if and when you take it for a PIR test ;-)

 

[Heethers]

Well said Steve W, hence why British industry has gone abroad to get away from emission legislation and other clap trap, straight Banana springs to mind from Brussels, China and India don't bother that's why their economy is growing faster than gran prix cars

 

[trickydicky]

As I rarely stay on caravan sites in this country, it will not bother me a lot. I will just take all my holidays on the continent where they ignore this kind of semi-official clap trap, infact they tend to ignore even the official clap trap as well. Something I think we would be well advised to do unless we want to be engulfed by these money seeking empire building clowns who have nothing better to do than find ways to stop ordinary people enjoying themselves.

Steve W

I couldnt have put it better myself,well said.

 

[Surfer]

Caravan Club has been contacted and they have no intention of reqesting a P.I.R. as even they realise it is not mandatory at thsi point in time nor within the next year.

So as I said before some people enjoy scaremongering without checking the facts first.

Parksy we are together on this one which must make a first!

 

[Parksy]

LOL Ian

To be honest I can see the merits of PIR inspections being carried out on used caravans offered for sale whether by dealers or private individuals.

A valid certificate would prove to a buyer that the 240v electrics in a used caravan were safe.

The business about us having to provide a valid certificate at sites before using ehu seems to me to be unworkable and a bit of a bully boy tactic if the NCC have actually stated that to be the case.

 

[rayc]

Why would the CC or any other site owner want to ask you for your PIR certificate or indeed any proof of habitation servicing? I drive on their site roads and they never ask to see my vehicle servicing records, MOT or insurance documents.

Is it the case that the NCC are now trying to get the CC to require the cert to bolster their position?

 

[forestgump]

may be we should start a new council along side ncc and give them some comperti tion ,[big brother]

 

[grandadbaza]

Hi everyone, I havent been online for a few days, and have just read every post and comment on this thread , you will have to excuse me now ,Im so confused that I am going to hit the bottle and plan my next electric shock !!!

Baza

 

[Gafferbill]

.....Welcome back.

I recommend Glenfiddich!

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think there is a need to stand back a little and review what has been said, and then try to clarify the position as I see it:-

The whole PIR thing comes from the fact that the Act of Parliament concerning electrical power supplies has a clause that effectively says that no one will cause or allow an unsafe electrical system to be connected to the mains supply. (A caravan is a typical example of a system, but it is not limited to just caravans).

Reversing the logic slightly, this means that the owner of a connection point is liable if a faulty system is connected. So the crux of the matter is how the owner of a connection have confidence that a system (e.g. a caravan) is safe?

In the UK the Institute of Electrical Engineers (IEE) is recognised as the body that devises methods of specifying electrical systems. They have over the years reviewed practices for the installation and testing of wiring, and produce the Wiring Regulations. These are designed to aide compliance with the Act or Parliament or the "How to do it" bit.

Whist it is generally accepted that the IEE is the authority in such matters, and installers following the IEE's regulations will normally be sufficient to comply with the Act of Parliament, but if someone else can prove to the satisfaction of the courts that an alternative procedure affords equivalent or better compliance with the Act then that can also stand as an acceptable procedure. Proving such a thing is a bit of an uphill struggle, but it has been done in the past.

As such a "PIR" is not prescribed by the Act of Parliament, but it is the IEE's considered opinion that it is the way to show the condition of a system.

Now putting that into a caravanning context;

There is a considerable difference between touring caravans (inc. motor homes) and static caravans (and Mobile Homes) Touring caravans are designed to be moved from site to site and will need to hook up to many different electrical points. They are subjet to levels of vibration and stress that may well render some aspects of their electrical system unsafe. Here each site owner must comply with the Act of Parliament and will need to prevent unsafe caravans from being connected to their hook up points. How do they do that?

There are three choices:

A) Trust to luck and assume that all caravans are ok, The problem here is that if an unsafe caravan is connected, regardless of whether it is causes a problem or not, if it is detected the site owner is liable under the Act.

B) Do an inspection of each caravan as it arrives. This would be very unpopular and time consuming and cause unreasonable bottle necks when caravans arrive on site. - But it is the most reliable method assuming the site operator has the properly trained staff to carry out the inspectin.

C) Have some scheme where by they can take the evidence of an independent assessor as being a reasonable compromise. The PIR is the attempt to do this.

Mobile homes and static caravans are not considered to be truly mobile. They are installed on a site and in most cases the electrical system is hard wired to the mains supply. This mans the site operator would need to use a qualified electrician to make the connection. It is the role of every electrician to ensure they only connect safe systems to the mains supply, so compliance with the act is achieved.

 

[Surfer]

John L a bit long winded but I guess it is the only way to highlight various valid points.

"They are subjet to levels of vibration and stress that may well render some aspects of their electrical system unsafe"

If a caravan is not manufactured to a standard where the wiring is able to stand all the bumping and bouncing in a caravan, this could fall under the Sale of Goods Act for the first six years anyway. The state of our roads should have been taken into consideration when designing the caravan, i.e. the fitment of shock absorbers etc.

A caravan should be designed with all the above in mind and must be rugged enoughto endure years of punishment without any effect on the wiring, plumbing and gas systems provided they are checked at an annual service excluding a PIR.

What about all the other electrical appliances in a caravan, i.e. TVs, George foreman's, toasters, kettles etc will they each require a PIR?

However should a wiring failure occur in a caravan at a later stage after the initial six years, the owner of the caravan could challenge it in court as it would be a latent defect. Granted it will be an uphill struggle but there is the possibility of winning if you have all the evidence.

 

[Gafferbill]

.....I repeat my earlier post on this topic of the 22nd of January.

An EHU on a campsite has come from an electrical distribution system that has been checked and maintained on a regular basis.

Safety comes from the campsite having the failsafe built into their supply.

It has to have earth leakage protection and overload protection.

Thus if there is a problem in the caravan then the supply should be cut off in milliseconds even if the onboard caravan trip fails.

 

[SteveW77]

Surely any certificate issued to a touring van or motorhome, can only be valid at the time of testing, like an M,O.T. certificate, it is only a statement that the vehicle conformed to the regulations at the time of testing and has no legal standing as to it's condition at any other time. This being the case, it it would prove nothing at all to the site owner when presented at the time of arrival on site.

Steve W

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Bill.

There is a subtle difference between what the act is saying and your position. The act does not deny the fact that a properly installed site system should provide a degree of protection, but it is not protection against every eventuality, and what's to say that the system you connect to is in its self fully functional and will trip in the event of a fault?

The act seeks to prevent dangerous situations arising, rather than relying on protection systems to act in the event of an incident, the adage of "Prevention is better than cure" is highly appropriate.

To provide an analogy; In your suggestion it is like ditching the MOT system and saying I'll jump into any car and drive it high speed, because the Armco barrier will save me if the brakes fail. The counter argument is that with an MOT at least there is an increased chance the brakes will work properly.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ian,

I agree with a parts of your argument, in so far that the caravan manufacturer is obliged to design and fit electrical assemblies that are fit for purpose, and should not be subject undue wear and tear. But the effects of vibration are cumulative, and a system may remain workable for many years but eventually (probably beyond the 6 years) a terminal screw may work loose or a cable may have not been properly secured and has eventually broken. These are facets related mainly to touring caravans (and motor homes) related to vibration.

As you say proof of a latent defect in the context of a touring caravan I think would be very difficult to prove.

But what about the damage caused by loose object being thrown around inside a locker snagging a cable or smashing a connection box, These may expose a conductor but not trip the safety systems.

A regular inspection of electrical systems in such environments is obviously a sensible active approach to safety assurance, but to satisfy the site owner that your systems is safe, you would need proof of the inspection and its findings. - begins to sound like a PIR!

To answer your other point, a PIR is not appropriate for individual appliances; they would almost certainly be subjected to PAT.

The underlying requirement of the Act is to PREVENT unsafe systems from being connected. And as I said to Bill prevention is better than cure.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello SteveW

I fully agree, a PIR is a snap shot of eth condition just like an MOT, but I seriously doubt if there is any one who would disagree with the overall benefit the MOT system has had on the safety and conditions of our car stock in the UK.

 

[Parksy]

There is no denying the logic in your posts John but the reasons why I have misgivings and perhaps others feel the same way are as follows:

If a caravan is designed and built properly, is serviced regularly and is fit for purpose the chances of an untoward incident involving 2340v is minimal as is evident to those of us who tour regularly and use ehu's.

How often do we see caravans bursting into flames or caravanners killed or injured because of poor electrical installation or maintenance of caravans?

The NCC have produced no evidence to support their recommendation that caravans need annual PIR inspection and certification.

The NCC has arbitrarily decided to 'recommend' that caravans are PIR inspected every 3 years but in practice service technicians will only issue certificates for 12 months as Dougie said earlier in this thread.

To my mind this means that the proposed system is open to interpretation and abuse.

Caravan parks will be expected to 'police' this system by demanding that PIR certificates are shown on entry before ehu connection is allowed. More expense for us caravanners then.

While most of us would probably agree that evidence of regular servicing could be shown the usual big brother bullying culture that is ever present in all of our lives seems to be at the forefront of this scheme which appears to be designed principally for the benefit of dealers and engineers / technicians who are NCC members and not for the general caravanning public, site owner or manufacturer.

I would welcome a requirement that used caravans offered for sale either privately or through dealers provide PIR certificates but those of us who pay premium rates to have our caravans serviced at dealers are bound to feel slightly cheated and to wonder what we've been getting for our money up to now.

I don't need to pay somebody two hundred and fifty quid every 12 months to tell me that my 240v lights work, I already know that!

As a matter of routine I visually inspect systems on my caravan every time that I'm in it so to pay somebody else to 'inspect' the same things as part of the annual service only to be expected to stump up even more money for pretty much the same thing with the PIR is a step too far for me and I will resist it at every available opportunity.

I bought a caravan to avoid being told what to do and not to be coerced and bullied in order to help to provide a steady source of income for somebody else.

If I ended up being forced to pay for PIR inspections I'd shop around for a suitably qualified electrician of whom I know many, pay as little as possible and more likely knock the annual dealership servicing on the head when my caravan is six years old.

I think that these proposals will be unenforceable and bully boy scare tactics will simply harden our attitudes.

 

[Surfer]

"But what about the damage caused by loose object being thrown around inside a locker snagging a cable or smashing a connection box, These may expose a conductor but not trip the safety systems."

This would be a design fault or defect as a manufacturer should have reasoned that tbis could happen and then have implemented steps to prevent any wiring becoming damaged. Any it would have to be an extremely heavy object to smash a connection box and if so I am sure it would smash a lot of other things tghat woudl eb very obvious to the owner. Sorry not really a valid argument but I understand where you are trying to come from.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

So the NCC are saying that as long as you have a PIR test and issue a certificate to that end whatever you connect to that system "i.e. the caravan" then becomes your responsibility, just like at home, toasters, kettle, tv, table lamp etc. So what is to prevent me from spending my

 

[Gafferbill]

John L... I am for PIR testing and my 1995 built caravan, bought new, passed a test before it was supplied to me. There was also a sticker, displayed prominently, advising me to have another carried out in 3 years time.

They are useful when a caravan or motorhome is sold to reassure the buyer and it sounds as if this aspect may become compulsory.

A better analogy for my post would be to compare the 240volt electrical system of a caravan to a car with dual controls... If the learner driver is about to hit a brick wall (caravan electrical failure) the instructor (campsite earth leakage and overload trips) can do an emergency stop.