Problems towing a Bailey Unicorn with Skoda Superb

Woodentop · Jul 11, 2016

I'm surprised to see 'hitch limit unknown.' Bailey's for years have used the Al-Ko chassis which has a standard maximum hitch load of 100Kg.

colin-yorkshire · Jul 11, 2016

hi John,
thanks for your latest additions, answers most of the questions, for reference, do your own research, and do not use weight comparison sites, as the data they use is very unreliable, that is why both the prof and I advocate ignoring them totally. how can the same car and van be matched at 87, 94, 105, and 125%, makes no sense does it!!.
I would say as I did before, the outfit should be fine if properly trimmed and set up. as you had with the morning star,
the MTPLM of that van was 1550kg and the unicorn 1565kg, so near enough not to make any difference. both of those vans are also well within the legal limits of the cars GTW, so no problems there.
I have tried to find the exact model used for the tow car test but it is not exactly the same, however a similar one won the award towing a 1500kg caravan, so it is not the cars fault.
I think you were just unlucky and got a bad day when things were not quite right, it can happen

set it all up properly as you did with the ACE and I am sure next time will be better, I certainly would not spend more money changing anything if towed the ACE, it will tow the Bailey.
Colin.

ProfJohnL · Jul 11, 2016

Hello again John,

Thank you for the additional information - but it raises a real question about the matching sites information. As you present it it is full of contradictions. How can the sites opening statement condemn the out fit, yet further down it praises the combination? confusing isn't it. and that's from just one site!

The fact is using the conventional tow weight ratio calculation you are running at over 100%. The industry guidance suggests this is not an ideal tow, but because it is within the car's stated towing weight limit it is technically legal.

Nose load has been called into question and that is something you need to properly address. If necessary trim the nose load by counter balancing with items inside the caravan. EU directives require: when hitched the centre of the tow ball must rest at between 350 and 420mm vertically above the ground. If it's outside these limits then it is either over or under-loaded, or the suspension and tyres of the car are not to correct specification.

In the light of your last post I am now concerned you may be in danger of overloading the car.

There is no requirement for a towed outfit to be able to achieve 60mph, so if necessary tow at a lower speed.

MikeyW · Jul 11, 2016

Just for info, if it helps. I tow a 2011 Valencia and the nose weight is over 100kg before loading. I have two lightweight gas bottles in front locker a lightweight porch awning over the axle a couple of folding baskets full, but not overly heavy, on the floor beside the fixed bed. The aqua roll in the bathroom at the rear and wastemaster, sat dish, ground sheet folding chairs and table under the bed. Everything else is in the car. This gives me a nose weight of 90-95kg. My car can handle 150kg and the limit for the hitch is 100kg. Never had any issues towing the Valencia for nearly 6 years. I know its a different car to the op, a Freelander 2, but I would deffinately look at nose weight. If the steering is light and knowing the nose weight is heavy from new then theres a good chance the ops is heavy too.

Hutch · Jul 11, 2016

Jontgee,
I did read on a diffrent website, about a lad that had problems with a caravan about the same problems and after a lot of checking out it was the Alko ATC system that was the problem. It took a lot of checking but was confirmed the ATC was the problem. Try towing with the ATC unpugged and see how it feels.
???
Hutch

WoodlandsCamper · Jul 12, 2016

Before any more speculation and advice it would be useful for the OP to measure the nose weight of his van in the trim it was for the journey, and to let us know the figure.

ProfJohnL · Jul 12, 2016

WoodlandsCamper said:
Before any more speculation and advice it would be useful for the OP to measure the nose weight of his van in the trim it was for the journey, and to let us know the figure.

Hello Woodlands,
I think such an exercise would only benefit us to satisfy our own curiosity,.From the OP's perspective, its more practical to start from scratch and check everything as has been described.

But like you I would like to know if our deductions are right about the nose load etc.

Hutch · Jul 12, 2016

WC and ProfJ. You are correct, without hands on, treatment, we can only guess, So please Jongjee , come back, so we can help.
Hutch.

WoodlandsCamper · Jul 12, 2016

The relevant facts given to us so far are:

CAR (2.0 ltr, 170PS)
V5c Mass In Service 1562 kg
Weight Plate 1 - 2125 kg Gross Vehicle Weight
Weight Plate 2 - 3925 kg Gross Train Weight
The difference between 1 & 2 is 1800 kg, Max Trailer Weight
Max Nose Weight 80 kg
Tyre pressures set for full load

VAN
MTPLM 1565 kg
Actual Nose weight = ??
Tyre pressure correct?

Conclusions:
1. The engine should be powerful enough
2. The max weight of van (1565) is within limits (1800), unless it was overloaded
3. The Train Weight (3690) is within limits (3925)
4. The actual nose weight is unknown
5. The van loading is unknown
6. The licence conditions are OK

jontygee · Jul 12, 2016

Hi All

many thanks for your really useful information. I will indeed start from scratch and check everything out. My dealer has kindly offered to help with me with loading, noseweight etc so I will take up his offer before I next try to tow this . I have learnt so much from all your advice, so thanks again

Dustydog · Jul 12, 2016

I am optimistic your problem can be resolved.
Poor weather is a problem for a tugger and Gaffer bill's observation is very valid.
The beauty of this Forum is that we are always learning. Getting a resolution to your problem will help others so please let us know the result.
Good luck and don't give up.

Raywood · Jul 13, 2016

The combination may be legal assuming the Op has the correct licence but the towing ratio is simply too high for a newcomer and I would say not good enough even if you are experienced.

colin-yorkshire · Jul 13, 2016

Raywood said:
The combination may be legal assuming the Op has the correct licence but the towing ratio is simply too high for a newcomer and I would say not good enough even if you are experienced.

sorry Ray it's not, the weight ratio is fine, and well within limits, the OP, is not a novice having towed for 7 years and prior to buying this van, towed one of similar weight without issue, however changing a van if it has a different layout from the one before can have huge influence on the way it is trimmed. and loaded, I believe this is the problem.
as the saying goes "there are caravanners and then there are people who use caravans" one should not confuse one with the other. or assume everyone is the latter.

WoodlandsCamper · Jul 13, 2016

jontygee said:
My dealer has kindly offered to help with me with loading, noseweight etc so I will take up his offer before I next try to tow this .

Please tell us what the nose weight was during your experience (use bathroom scales and caravan steps). Your dealer won't be able to tell you any more that what the experienced forum members have already told you.

Raywood · Jul 14, 2016

colin-yorkshire said:
Raywood said:

The combination may be legal assuming the Op has the correct licence but the towing ratio is simply too high for a newcomer and I would say not good enough even if you are experienced.

Click to expand...

sorry Ray it's not, the weight ratio is fine, and well within limits, the OP, is not a novice having towed for 7 years and prior to buying this van, towed one of similar weight without issue, however changing a van if it has a different layout from the one before can have huge influence on the way it is trimmed. and loaded, I believe this is the problem.
as the saying goes "there are caravanners and then there are people who use caravans" one should not confuse one with the other. or assume everyone is the latter.

Colin, The towing ratio is far too close to 100% for my liking and it is not a combination I would consider. I might look at a Superb though to replace our Mazda but our Quasar has a MTPLM of 1350 which is far better from my point of view.

colin-yorkshire · Jul 14, 2016

Raywood said:
colin-yorkshire said:

Raywood said:

The combination may be legal assuming the Op has the correct licence but the towing ratio is simply too high for a newcomer and I would say not good enough even if you are experienced.

Click to expand...

sorry Ray it's not, the weight ratio is fine, and well within limits, the OP, is not a novice having towed for 7 years and prior to buying this van, towed one of similar weight without issue, however changing a van if it has a different layout from the one before can have huge influence on the way it is trimmed. and loaded, I believe this is the problem.
as the saying goes "there are caravanners and then there are people who use caravans" one should not confuse one with the other. or assume everyone is the latter.

Click to expand...

Colin, The towing ratio is far too close to 100% for my liking and it is not a combination I would consider. I might look at a Superb though to replace our Mazda but our Quasar has a MTPLM of 1350 which is far better from my point of view.

hi Ray, that is the trouble with "on paper" ratios, and one of the reasons I am totally against the 85% rule [recommendation] as so often quoted and adhered to as some sort of magic formula for towing, it is not, it assumes the complete worse scenario, empty car and fully loaded van, and uses this as a basis of making a guess of the compatabillity in the form of a percentage figure, now we are all caravanners [or was] no-one goes away in the van with it full while the car is empty, as soon as you add weight to the car and remove some from the van the ratio drops significantly a combo that is around 90% will be nearer 75% when loaded and trimmed, true the more experience you get the better a tow becomes, but even at 100% [as recommended] should not be cause for concern.
for instance I have towed the same van with 3 different cars, one at 75% [Mondeo 1.6], one at 88%[Meriva 1.7cdti] and one at 98% [Megane 1.9dti], there was no significant difference between any of the tows, in fact to be honest the 98% one was quite a bit better than the 75% one due to the size of the engine, I did however trim the outfit differently for each one. weight alone will not make or break a good tow, there are far more factors than weight that are more important.
Colin.

GeorgiePorgie · May 16, 2017

Apologies for coming late to the discussion, but the following might throw some light on VAG groups published kerbside weights!

My outfit, Skoda Superb mk3 190ps (187bhp) Auto 4x4 estate, Plus caravan, a Swift Challenger 580 SB ALD, MTPLM uprated to 1550kg.

How to calculate the kerb weight of your car without resorting to weighing it! as the VAG published kerb weights are entirely useless! & can't be relied on as they are based on the base spec, manual gearbox & smallest available engine of each car as delivered in Germany!

First, all VAG vehicles are individually weighed as they come off the assembly line, & in the UK its noted on the V5c (reg doc) page 2 under mass in service.

Second, find the fuel tank capacity, add the weight of fuel to fill the tank (in my case 54.91kg, as my tank capacity is 66ltrs (when they come off the assembly line there's approx 2 ltrs of fuel in the tank). Unleaded petrol = .737kg per litre. Diesel .832kg per litre.

Third. add the weight of any PERMANENTLY fixed after market accessories such as tow bar, changing puncture repair kit with spare wheel & tool kit. etc.

Lastly add 75kg for the driver, apologies if your weight is under or over that but that's the internationally recognised "standard" weight of a car driver!

So my car: Mass in running order 1635kg, fuel 55kg (as near as damn it!), Tow bar & electrics 45kg, full size spare wheel & tool kit (replaced the useless puncture repair kit) 30kg & me, a nice trim 75kg (I wish!!!!!!) making a total kerbside weight of 1840kg, difference between mass in service & actual 205kg that's 4cwt or 448lbs in old money!

If I was a novice tower then my safe MTPLM would be 1564kg, but as I've been towing for over 40 years, I consider myself to be an experienced tower, when I'm towing a caravan I try not to exceed the car's kerbside weight, but a loaded braked trailer maybe slightly more but not exceeding the car's max of 2200kg

otherclive · May 16, 2017

My Superb Estate CR 170PS 4x4 requires a large increase in tyre pressure when towing. It sits on 225/45/17 wheels and I pump the rears up to 310kpa and fronts to 250kpa when the car is loaded and the caravan hitched up. Other than having its "bum" a bit near the ground it is very stable. I am also aware that when Bailey released that range of caravans there were lots of comments re the difficulty of attaining a noseweight around 70-80kg which many cars specify. And owners of theses caravans had to experiment with weight positioning to get the noseweight down. I suspect that the problem was noseweight plus a combination of other factors compounded by bad weather too. When I took delivery of my current caravan I had to bring it from Devon during bad weather in January and specifically took my noseweight gauge along with me and had to do some balancing before I ventured onto the M5 and brought the van back. Please no comments about using noseweight gauge, even a calibrated one!!! It got me home okay.

20170602yuanyuan · Jun 2, 2017

Search

Problems towing a Bailey Unicorn with Skoda Superb

Woodentop

colin-yorkshire

ProfJohnL

MikeyW

Hutch

WoodlandsCamper

ProfJohnL

Hutch

WoodlandsCamper

jontygee

Dustydog

Raywood

colin-yorkshire

WoodlandsCamper

Raywood

colin-yorkshire

GeorgiePorgie

otherclive

20170602yuanyuan

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts