After seeing so many possibly overloaded caravans arrive on site and disgorge all sorts of contents perhaps owners should weigh their loaded caravan annually and carry the weighbridge slip with them. 
hmy:
hmy:
Hi Prof
If the magazines could test tow cars at the "ideal" 85% and then do the same tests with the trailer safely ballasted to 100% the comparison in performance could be really informative.
It may well indicate the vehicle on test needs to be used with a lighter trailer or is capable of far heavier loads.
The trouble is at present all we have is guesses and gut feelings but no real world results.
If the magazines could test tow cars at the "ideal" 85% and then do the same tests with the trailer safely ballasted to 100% the comparison in performance could be really informative.
It may well indicate the vehicle on test needs to be used with a lighter trailer or is capable of far heavier loads.
The trouble is at present all we have is guesses and gut feelings but no real world results.
WoodlandsCamper said:After seeing so many possibly overloaded caravans arrive on site and disgorge all sorts of contents perhaps owners should weigh their loaded caravan annually and carry the weighbridge slip with them.
An Annual weight ticket would be worthless except for the moment/journey it's actually weighed.
ProfJohnL said:An Annual weight ticket would be worthless except for the moment/journey it's actually weighed.WoodlandsCamper said:After seeing so many possibly overloaded caravans arrive on site and disgorge all sorts of contents perhaps owners should weigh their loaded caravan annually and carry the weighbridge slip with them.
Hi all ,
On going away for a weekend we don't take much but when we do 4 and 5 days up to a week away 5 minutes from where we keep our van there is a public weighbridge and I often put our unit on just to check that I am ok, only takes a few minutes to do.
A thought occurred to me regarding the testing of caravan outfits. I know that the van is normally ballasted to be 85% of the car's kerb weight, but does the car carry any load as it would in real life? The load would affect stability, lane changing, acceleration, braking etc.
There are too many variables to make a single load test have any meaningful value.
I agree there should be at least a load of 150kg on the tow car.
This is moving towards the same problem as car emissions testing where the real world and the test figures are not comparable or obtainable.
I agree there should be at least a load of 150kg on the tow car.
This is moving towards the same problem as car emissions testing where the real world and the test figures are not comparable or obtainable.
How about a passenger of 75kg in the front and 75kg in the load space/boot!
Unfortunately no test will simulate how you load you car but a test unladen then laden has some validity as an indication of how the vehicle responds to various loads.
The same applies to the trailer loading. It might not be real world simulation or how you would load it but would give indication of the change in dynamic response.
Unfortunately no test will simulate how you load you car but a test unladen then laden has some validity as an indication of how the vehicle responds to various loads.
The same applies to the trailer loading. It might not be real world simulation or how you would load it but would give indication of the change in dynamic response.
Driver, Passenger and 75 kg in the land area of the car/estate. It may make little difference to the test results but at present its an unknown.
I notice our car tows a good bit better with the awning, food and clothes in the car. That's around 50kg.
It might not make a difference when towing with a Chelsea tractor but the effect is more noticeable when towing near to 100%.
It might not make a difference when towing with a Chelsea tractor but the effect is more noticeable when towing near to 100%.
We notice no difference in towing characteristics between the occasional trip with just the two of us, no awning or cardiac in the van and no three children and two dogs in the boot. To be fair the boot always has my wheelchair in but the load in the van can vary a lot between trips.
At the Tow Car Awards, the cars are ballasted too. I can't remember what the figures are, but it's substantial (both in the passenger compartment and the boot). Sometimes, part of the ballast is one of the fine volunteers from the C&CC or other guest who might be visiting the event.
There's method in the madness here.
For decades all the heavy stuff eg awning tables tools and so on go in the car.
Caravan stays light.
NB. All subject to not breaking the car's back :kiss:
For decades all the heavy stuff eg awning tables tools and so on go in the car.
Caravan stays light.
NB. All subject to not breaking the car's back :kiss:
Craigyoung said:ProfJohnL said:An Annual weight ticket would be worthless except for the moment/journey it's actually weighed.WoodlandsCamper said:After seeing so many possibly overloaded caravans arrive on site and disgorge all sorts of contents perhaps owners should weigh their loaded caravan annually and carry the weighbridge slip with them.
Hi all ,
On going away for a weekend we don't take much but when we do 4 and 5 days up to a week away 5 minutes from where we keep our van there is a public weighbridge and I often put our unit on just to check that I am ok, only takes a few minutes to do.
Great Well Done
Amazingly, when this is subject is discussed, no mention is ever made of the engine power available within the 85% match.
Surely a small engine cannot perform the same on steep hills as a larger one.
My Hyundai i40 with it's 1.7 litre diesel is a case in point. No matter what the 85% guideline offers, I would NOT put anything that the 85% suggests for it to tow. Economy also comes into the mix.
I must also add that, years ago I was towing with a Vauxhall Omega 2.2 litre petrol and only just made it up a long steep hill. That memory lingers on .....
We've just bought a Caravelair Antares 335 for that reason - and it's a brilliant piece of kit. It doesn't have all the (to us: unnecessary) luxuries of more expensive caravans, but it does have everything we need. And we got a free air awning and a years free insurance in the deal. And it's a caravan that my wife can handle easily.
Surely a small engine cannot perform the same on steep hills as a larger one.
My Hyundai i40 with it's 1.7 litre diesel is a case in point. No matter what the 85% guideline offers, I would NOT put anything that the 85% suggests for it to tow. Economy also comes into the mix.
I must also add that, years ago I was towing with a Vauxhall Omega 2.2 litre petrol and only just made it up a long steep hill. That memory lingers on .....
We've just bought a Caravelair Antares 335 for that reason - and it's a brilliant piece of kit. It doesn't have all the (to us: unnecessary) luxuries of more expensive caravans, but it does have everything we need. And we got a free air awning and a years free insurance in the deal. And it's a caravan that my wife can handle easily.
Hello Kiveton
AS GD485 points out, with the improvements that engine manufacturers are making in power outputs, you cant simply judge the towing ability of a vehicle based on engine CC.
There has been thread on this subject running on the forum, in the tow cars section under Horse before the cart. By all means take a look, and make your own mind up.
AS GD485 points out, with the improvements that engine manufacturers are making in power outputs, you cant simply judge the towing ability of a vehicle based on engine CC.
There has been thread on this subject running on the forum, in the tow cars section under Horse before the cart. By all means take a look, and make your own mind up.
I agree, it is the power and torque figures that count although I do wonder if the high outputs from some smaller engines is at the expense of long term reliability. On that basis I would prefer a larger lower stressed engine but the cost may be a factor for some people.
The VW 1.4 tdi engine has been around for at least 7 years and there must be a lot that have been around the clock by now.
I used to be involve with motorsport when the Ford Xflow was in vogue. Even when doubling the stock BHP the crankshaft stress only increase by 13%. Most of the load on the crank is due to the reciprocating forces trying to rip the engine apart.
With forced induction the combustion temperature is higher but if the engine design takes this into consideration then Engine life should uneffected.
Engine life has been extended because of fully synthetic oils, good engineering and quality control.
I used to be involve with motorsport when the Ford Xflow was in vogue. Even when doubling the stock BHP the crankshaft stress only increase by 13%. Most of the load on the crank is due to the reciprocating forces trying to rip the engine apart.
With forced induction the combustion temperature is higher but if the engine design takes this into consideration then Engine life should uneffected.
Engine life has been extended because of fully synthetic oils, good engineering and quality control.
Raywood said:
I would have concerns if the manufactures had taken stock small capacity engine from the 1970's and doubled its output power without re engineering the components for more stressful duties, but most of the small cc engines appearing have been designed to cope with the extra duty placed upon them.
Today's designers have some very powerful design tools that were simply not around 40 years ago, so stress simulations can be carried out in the virtual world of CAD CAM, and most of the pitfalls of new designs can be designed out before components are even manufactured for real life testing. Nothing can replace real life testing so its still important but most of the minor issues will be sorted much more quickly.
As I have pointed out in another thread the smaller engines will behave differently to the older larger capacities, so the traditionalist view of low reeving high torque diesels may need to be forgotten as we head towards 2040 and beyond.
Turbo power on diesel and petrol will feature more commonly, along with hybrids, and ultimately all electric tow vehicles.
It a new horizon, and its no good ignoring it, - becasue its coming
There will be a specialist area where IC engines will persist, but that's unlikely to to include caravanners.
You are quite right about CAD CAM systems Prof. They take design to a dimension unimaginable years ago. However, as explained by Honest John in this Saturday's Telegraph a VW small turbo engine of very recent years proved to be dog with a voracious appetite for oil.
VW have remedied the problem by completely redesigning the entire engine.
The original 1.4 high power turbo diesel suffered from. 'Bore wash' resulting in premature piston failure wrecking the entire unit.
The new replacement is a new design with stronger parts and better piston rings and better bores.
I do recall some years ago a forumite questioned the concept of longevity in small high power diesels.
How right he was B)
VW have remedied the problem by completely redesigning the entire engine.
The original 1.4 high power turbo diesel suffered from. 'Bore wash' resulting in premature piston failure wrecking the entire unit.
The new replacement is a new design with stronger parts and better piston rings and better bores.
I do recall some years ago a forumite questioned the concept of longevity in small high power diesels.
How right he was
B)
Wasn't the problem due to low mileage tdi engines used as town cars.
The bore wash down was a result of the DPF needing to regenerate but the car didn't make long enough journeys for the operation to complete.
Diesel cars do not make sense as town cars. The higher retail cost isn't offset by the fuel saving. Most sales people now quiz buyers on their intended use and advise accordingly. This wasn't all ways the case and the problem has bitten back
The bore wash down was a result of the DPF needing to regenerate but the car didn't make long enough journeys for the operation to complete.
Diesel cars do not make sense as town cars. The higher retail cost isn't offset by the fuel saving. Most sales people now quiz buyers on their intended use and advise accordingly. This wasn't all ways the case and the problem has bitten back
Though I've never bought a new van, I still read the reviews, and must say that I have never read one which complains about the poor quality pof the van they review.
Strange that, when almost daily we get complaints on here about poor quality.
Do the reviewers use the same vans that the public buy?
The same applies to new car road test. Nobody appears to tell the truth.
How many on here remember the late "WB", Bill Boddy, long time editor of Motor Sport? Now he told it like it was! Sadly nobody today has the b*lls to do that.
Strange that, when almost daily we get complaints on here about poor quality.
Do the reviewers use the same vans that the public buy?
The same applies to new car road test. Nobody appears to tell the truth.
How many on here remember the late "WB", Bill Boddy, long time editor of Motor Sport? Now he told it like it was! Sadly nobody today has the b*lls to do that.
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