Roadwheel bolt markers

[pensioner]

I accept that I'm getting a bit "dolally" in my old age,,but I'm convinced that just recently I saw an advert for those yellow wheelnut markers that all HGV's have fitted,but these were for caravan wheelbolts, but I cannot for the life of me remember where. :S
Have I got it completely wrong or do they exist, and if so where can I purchase them as it seems to me to be a very handy idea and would save a lot of time instead of using a torque wrench all the time.

 

[seth1]

Are you suffering from lack of confidence too by any chance?

 

[RogerL]

Before alloy wheels became popular, Bailey fitted them as standard - but since they were behind the wheel trim you never noticed if they'd moved!

 

[Gagakev]

Are these the ones, click here

You could always comprimise, save your money and mark your nuts with either a permanant marker or a thin line of bright paint.

 

[Sproket]

Are these what you are looking for ?

Have I got it completely wrong or do they exist, and if so where can I purchase them as it seems to me to be a very handy idea and would save a lot of time instead of using a torque wrench all the time.

That five mins that it takes to check them is well worth being late setting off for, it's a bit like checking the air pressure is correct at the same time .... Blowouts and lost wheels cause a lot of damage to the van

I replaced my normal wheel bolts with a set of these I still check the torque settings before we move, and i'm glad to say that they have stayed put & never twitched like the original bolts used to do.

Bailey fit them as standard to new vans

 

[pensioner]

Thanks Gagakev, although not what I thought I saw those seem to be somewhere along the same lines and will do the job.

 

[ProfJohnL]

How long does it take to use a torque wrench on a caravan? My guess without actually timing it is 8 to 10 seconds per nut! Are you really that short of time?

Take two minutes on each wheel to check pressure, look and feel for tyre lumps and cracking, and torque the nuts/bolts, It will give you far more confidence that the jobs been checked properly rather than just hoping next doors toddler hasn't tweaked the indicators for you.

I'd classify the indicators in the same category as tyre bands, and retail nose weight gauges, expensive gadgets that don't really work.

 

[chrisbee1]

It seems to me that some people are a tad obsessive about caravan wheel nuts/bolts. I wonder if they check the torque on their cars before every trip or ask the bus driver if he torqued his wheels before he left the depot? Once my wheels are correctly check torqued I fit Milenco indicators as per Gagakev's link and that's it 'till the next time the wheels are removed. Next door's kid isn't going to move the indicators unless he's armed with long nose pliers.

 

[RogerL]

More importantly - do people slacken the bolts off first and then retighten them with a torque-wrench - like you should ?

 

[Damian]

Quote " It seems to me that some people are a tad obsessive about caravan wheel nuts/bolts."

Possibly due to the number of wheels which have fallen off vans, particularly Bailey vans, in the recent past..
Also there is a big difference between a caravan hub and a car hub which makes fitting wheels to caravans more tricky for some.

Quote " More importantly - do people slacken the bolts off first and then retighten them with a torque-wrench - like you should ? "

Its not a case of re torqueing the bolts, just checking that they are still as tight as they were which is just a simple "click" test.
If one were to slacken off the bolts each time then one would have to recheck them after 50 miles again.

 

[chrisbee1]

Quote " It seems to me that some people are a tad obsessive about caravan wheel nuts/bolts."

Possibly due to the number of wheels which have fallen off vans, particularly Bailey vans, in the recent past..
Also there is a big difference between a caravan hub and a car hub which makes fitting wheels to caravans more tricky for some.

Quote " More importantly - do people slacken the bolts off first and then retighten them with a torque-wrench - like you should ? "

Its not a case of re torqueing the bolts, just checking that they are still as tight as they were which is just a simple "click" test.
If one were to slacken off the bolts each time then one would have to recheck them after 50 miles again.

If some people find it "tricky" to fit caravan wheels correctly then it's no wonder they fall off.

 

[Damian]

If some people find it "tricky" to fit caravan wheels correctly then it's no wonder they fall off.[/quote]

Not everyone is good at everything !!

 

[chrisbee1]

If some people find it "tricky" to fit caravan wheels correctly then it's no wonder they fall off.

Not everyone is good at everything !![/quote]

With respect, if people have problems fitting wheels then perhaps they should leave it to those who are competent.

 

[JTQ]

These indicators only let you readily identify that a bolt has moved; that is very different from the bolt coming loose.
They only move when they are really loose, things have gone wrong long before they actually get loose enough to move.
The main job the bolts are doing is pulling together the wheel onto its mounting so the friction within the clamped surfaces can hold the wheel in place.
That pulling force is the tension in the stretched section of the bolt, it is developed by turning the bolt, torqueing up.
If any part of the held together surfaces “easy” then part of that tension is lost so is the friction it was placed there to develop.
So long before the bolt turns at all it could cease to adequately clamp the wheel on.
The “easing”, could be “give” in the surface finishes on any surface under load, the wheel, the mounting, the thread surfaces and the under the bolt head contact. Think, rust, paint dirt, grease, metal plating [zinc etc], all well-known issues.
So whilst these indicators might give you mental comfort, they actually don’t give any real safety. The only place IMO where they serve a roll at all is in applications with large numbers of bolts, where an individual is redundant. Even then they can lull users to assume the bolt tensions are okay rather than check they are actually tight.

By far the better option is to use bolts capable of storing more strain energy; so should the same amount of surface give occur the force doing the wheel retention is less affected.
The classic way used in industry to get greater strain energy is to increase the bolts “working length”, the stretched part of the bolt. Here this can be increased about three fold by using collared bolts, as WSL make available for caravans. The length of bolt inside the collar adds greatly to the bolts working length, ie the part storing energy.

 

[aldo]

Are these ones you were looking for?

John

 

[Dustydog]

Having almost lost a wheel a few years ago I have to say these markers are a total waste of space :woohoo:

Briefly had new tyres fitted day before our trip. Watched the wheels correctly torqued up. Drove non stop to Pemrith for overnight and then next day onwards . Just outside of Oban terrible vibration . Stopped to find rear wheel of car hanging on by two very loose nuts the other three fell off a while back.
So I didn't double check the torques 50 miles after the refit and thus I had the near miss.
Markers would not have told me there was a problem!!
So what are you supposed to do ? Check the markers every half hour
Torque wench now travels in the boot and is used before the commencement of any long tow journey.

 

[chrisbee1]

You never know Dusty, had you have had nut indicators, the last time you stopped a quick glance might have told you that something was amiss.

 

[Turbo]

At the end of the day its the drivers responsibility to check his or her vehicle that it is safe for use.
Tyre fitters will tell customers to check studs or nuts for tightness after 30-40 miles whether its a HGV or car. The indicators only work if you actually do a walk around before and during a journey. They do not remove responsibility from a driver to check their vehicle.
Trailers and caravan suspensions are very basic and their wheels are subject to different loadings and vibration. Wheels on twin axle trailers flex quite a lot as they manoeuver on tight turns. Car, truck and bus wheels will also try to part company from the vehicle so get in a habit of doing a walk around, checking pressures, tread depth, fixings and lights.
Its your licence that's at stake, along with having to live with killing or injuring somebody.

 

[Gafferbill]

I'd classify the indicators in the same category as tyre bands, and retail nose weight gauges, expensive gadgets that don't really work.

Having almost lost a wheel a few years ago I have to say these markers are a total waste of space :woohoo:

.........don't forget that these indicators were originally designed for use on Trucks and Buses.
In that environment they are cheap time saving safety devices.
They are used as a tool to carry out Truck and Bus maintenance in busy workshops where a mechanic carrying out a regular service can visually check the tightness of the wheel nuts without touching a torque wrench.
If the indicators haven't moved then the nuts are still as tight as when the wheel was fitted and torqued.
There can easily be 120 wheel nuts on one Artic and Trucks and Buses have to be safety checked for mechanical defects at least every six weeks by law.
The indicators also help the driver of a Truck and Bus to easily visually check wheel nuts with just a walk around their vehicle.

Someone spotted an opportunity to market these indicators to caravan owners who are well known to like their gadgets

I used to own an Artic fitted with 120 of these markers..........I won't be fitting any on my caravan as I can easily check the 8 wheel nuts with a wrench in a couple of minutes.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Chris,

"If a jobs worth doing, it's worth doing properly" I happen to think this adage suits this particular issue very aptly.

An indicator is just that, In this case it will only indicate if there has been rotational movement of the nut/bolt. Considering the recommendation is after a wheel has been fitted to recheck the torque setting of the wheel fixings after 50 miles or so, that should make you suspect that the wheel needs to bed down against the hub plate.

When a wheel rim is off the axle, it will naturally relax very slightly, (everything, even alloy and steel rims have elastic properties) So when it is fitted to the axle it is pulled against the hub plate by the tension in the fixing bolts and it needs some time to settle down again.

Anyone who plays a stringed instrument will tell you that whenever you change a string, you can never trust it to hold its correct tension after fitting and you frequently need to retune it until it settles down. Now whilst the string settles the tension changes but the tuning peg doesn't move so simply looking at the position of the peg offers no guarantee the string is actually at the correct tension.

So the same occurs with wheel bolts! The fact a bolt hasn't moved is no guarantee it remains set at the correct torque or that its doing its job.

A lot of things can affect the bolt, It may have been overtightened at some point which may have weakened it.
It may not have tightened enough.
The face of the hub plate or the inner-side of the wheel rim may have been contaminated so it doesn't sit down fully when the bolts are torqued up, but the forces generated when towing breaks down the contaminant and the rim and hub are not held together with the designed force.
Or when the brakes are used some of the heat generated transfers to the hub/rim joint again possibly reducing the clamping force and allowing relative movement.

All these possible problems would not cause bolt markers to indicate a fault exists.

The only positive thing a marker that has moved would show is the bolt has rotated, then you definitely know you have a problem.

With such a list of potential problems, its best to assume the worst and get out and recheck the torque setting as recommended.

 

[JTQ]

So the same occurs with wheel bolts! The fact a bolt hasn't moved is no guarantee it remains set at the correct torque or that its doing its job.
The only positive thing a marker that has moved would show is the bolt has rotated, then you definitely know you have a problem.
With such a list of potential problems, its best to assume the worst and get out and recheck the torque setting as recommended.

So true, the tension in the bolt can relax and leave it not doing its job long before it actually turns. Then the pointless plastic indicator is one more bit of hassle to remove to be able to check the torque. If you must have an indicator use a marker pen, the dye mark will not obstruct using the wrench!

They can lead to a totally unfounded level of confidence.

 

[chrisbee1]

Seems to me I am the only one on this thread who has the confidence to drive my car to the local shop without torqueing the wheels first.

 

[Dustydog]

I'm in full agreement with the Prof's last post.
My own experience tells me that once a nut / bolt let's go , it does it fairly quickly. Hence the really weird high frequency vibration I experienced.
The indicators only give an image at the the time of view.
A lot can happen during a few hours driving.

 

[chrisbee1]

There is nothing in the Prof's post I disagree with either.

When the stealer takes my £250.00 after a service I have to assume he has fitted the wheels correctly, i.e. cleaned the mating surfaces and correctly torqued the bolts in the right order with his calibrated torque wrench. When I pick the 'van up it has obviously been stood some time since the wheels were refitted so I take the opportunity to re-torque the bolts with my own calibrated MAC wrench. In reality of course I am merely checking the bolts are done up to at least the recommended torque, they could well be over tightened. I then tow the 'van 32 miles and put it in storage. When I next go away I check torque the bolts and fit the nut indicators before moving the 'van. During the journey I stop every 2 hours for a smoke which includes a quick walk round check of the outfit, including a glance at the nut indicators. No, that won't tell me that the bolts have the correct torque but it will tell be they haven't rotated in the last 100 miles or so. Providing the wheels don't have to be removed for a puncture etc, that's it till next year's service as far as the torque wrench is concerned.

There have been many valid points made regarding bolt stretch, contaminated mating surfaces etc but equally some that are impractical or just plain wrong in my opinion.

How often do others torque their wheel bolts? Every time they stop? How far is that? Do they let the hubs cool first? There is of course no definitive answer but I'm satisfied my wheels are as secure as they can reasonably be expected to be.

 

[seth1]

There will always be people who loose their wheels,its a forum,its the nature.But we never see posts of "my wheels stayed on this trip" because its taken for granted.But some of the posts and thoughts are plain overkill.Like ive always said,if the wheel is fitted correctly,mating surfaces are clean,free of debis and its torqued up to the correct value then retorqued after 50 kilometres they will be safe.