Speed cameras

[Buckman]

I thought they were there for safety reasons and not as a money making racket. In a rural village not far from us they had the camera van hidden in someone's driveway and they were looking for people leaving a 30mph zone. The camera was less than 50yds from the 30mph speed limit demarcation. As it is a rural village there are no street lights.

However about 1/2 mile from the demarcation sign is a T junction with another "main" road joining the main road through the village. This other road is signposted 40mph. If you enter the main road where the camera van was located there is no sign indicating it is a 30mph zone whether turning left or right. To the left was the camera van. Turning to the left the first 30mph sign is after the camera van. Turning right there is no 30mph for about 1/2 mile.

To be honest I think that if a person is caught speeding in those two areas, the fine can easily be overturned. As we live nearby we are aware of the speed limit, but many people new to the area and passing through will not be aware of the 30mph zone. On the stretch of road between the T - junction and the speed camera that is to the left there is only one house on the left and none on the right. So much for it being a "safety" camera!

 

[RogerL]

Where are the street lights? These are what define 30 mph limits in the UK.

 

[Buckman]

Where are the street lights? These are what define 30 mph limits in the UK.

It is a rural village and like ours and other villages in the county, no street lights.

 

[Woodentop]

Try calling your local County Council and point out the situation?

 

[Buckman]

Try calling your local County Council and point out the situation?

You are joking as our council relies on a computer talking to you after you have gone through dozens of menus. The last time we gave up on phoning and wrote a letter which they replied to with the normal fob off stuff.

Anyway it doesn't bother us as we know the speed limit and not our village, but people will be caught through no fault of their own due to this money making exercise. Normally they have the speed camera van for cars going into the village so there is a safety issue there and no objection.

 

[woodsieboy]

Oh Buckman how sweet you are to think they are for safety reasons, they are a money making scam disguised as for our safety, says I having just attended a speed 'education course', Yes I was allegedly guilty of doing 35 in a 30, caught by a hand held camera operator who was hiding in a driveway and the photographic evidence provided showed a picture of the back of my vehicle 50 yards from the hand held camera, so I was caught after I had passed the hidden operator, The course I attended had 3 classes that day of 24 pupils in each at £88 a pop.So £6336 for one day. The trainers are self employedx2 and the venue is hired, you do the maths. Now it is not in their business model to eliminate speeding drivers, in the same way that Weight Watchers don't want their members to lose weight. There are guidelines as to how and where camera vans are deployed, although I am convinced they are routinely flaunted, you try proving the guidelines weren't followed. The trainers made it very clear that once charged with speeding it is an offence that is virtully impossible to get off. I would have wasted my time trying to disprove that I was doing 35, despite there being no proof provided by the operator. The local police service know full well that the motorist will be wasting their time with any challenge and make it obvious that the pragmatic route is to pay up and do the course, mind you I did see the video on what happens if you run into a pile of cardboard boxes at 35 mph v 30 mph.Another anomaly is that there are 43 police services in Enhgland and each can choose to set it's own guidelines as to when to charge for sppeding, in some it is limit plus 10% plus 2 mph, others it is exact limit so in no way is it a level playing field

 

[RogerL]

I think speed cameras are like red light cameras, easy to avoid by complying with the law - I've been caught by both in my long driving history - "fair cop, guv".

 

[Buckman]

I think speed cameras are like red light cameras, easy to avoid by complying with the law - I've been caught by both in my long driving history - "fair cop, guv".

I agree except in the instance referred to my my first post as motorists will be complying with the law due to the absence of the 30mph speed restriction sign. Definitely a money making racket in this case.
Just to add that the 30mpg restriction sign that is past where the camera van was located is obscured by branches directly in front of it. On the left hand side although the side is not obscured by branches, you cannot see the sign until you are about 50yds away as the hedges have not yet been cut back.

 

[otherclive]

I agree except in the instance referred to my my first post as motorists will be complying with the law due to the absence of the 30mph speed restriction sign. Definitely a money making racket in this case.
Just to add that the 30mpg restriction sign that is past where the camera van was located is obscured by branches directly in front of it. On the left hand side although the side is not obscured by branches, you cannot see the sign until you are about 50yds away as the hedges have not yet been cut back.

It’s a British thing to routinely let foliage obscure road signs of all types. I once took HE to task as signs at the Stratford end of the Warwick bypass were obscured not only by foliage but by other signs that their contractors had erected. Give them credit next time I drove that route the problem had been sorted.

 

[Buckman]

It’s a British thing to routinely let foliage obscure road signs of all types. I once took HE to task as signs at the Stratford end of the Warwick bypass were obscured not only by foliage but by other signs that their contractors had erected. Give them credit next time I drove that route the problem had been sorted.

It is quite common around our area. Farmers only cut back the hedges once a year in about Nov. However sometimes it is difficult for them to clear the foliage from around a sign.

 

[otherclive]

It is quite common around our area. Farmers only cut back the hedges once a year in about Nov. However sometimes it is difficult for them to clear the foliage from around a sign.

That’s a role that councils used to perform when trimming verges. I like the concept of I trimmed verges except where the obscure vision at junctions. So no verge trimming, leads to no trimming around road signage. The only signs that are kept visible are the endless ones directing you onto the diversion, but there are so many diversions it’s neigh on impossible to fathom out which one you are on. That came from an Aussie friend who visited us. Locally we have even had them in Welsh and English.

 

[Woodentop]

All the talk above is about the length of local vegetational growth - which seems to be getting more and more every year.
But what about the speed/road signs which - at least around here - are not only obscured by vegetation, they are also covered in green from the trees above, especially the bigger speed limit signs!

 

[otherclive]

All the talk above is about the length of local vegetational growth - which seems to be getting more and more every year.
But what about the speed/road signs which - at least around here - are not only obscured by vegetation, they are also covered in green from the trees above, especially the bigger speed limit signs!

I thought at post #9 and #10 vegetation around road signs was specifically mentioned.

 

[Woodentop]

I thought at post #9 and #10 vegetation around road signs was specifically mentioned.

May I respectfully suggest that you read what I contributed, not what you thought I said. My specific comment was about dirty green road signs especially speed limit types.

 

[Raywood]

If there are no street lights and there is no 30 sign then the fines should be unenforceable but I suppose the council will carry on and take the money where people do not realise there is no sign. Another positive for a dash cam.
Near where my daughter lives there is a 40 sign as you leave a deristricted area and a 30 sign only a few yards further followed by a camera. If that is not there to make money, I do not know what is.

 

[RogerL]

If there are no street lights and there is no 30 sign then the fines should be unenforceable but I suppose the council will carry on and take the money where people do not realise there is no sign. Another positive for a dash cam.
Near where my daughter lives there is a 40 sign as you leave a deristricted area and a 30 sign only a few yards further followed by a camera. If that is not there to make money, I do not know what is.

Many authorities have introduced short 40 mph buffers just before a 30 mph limit, to try to get drivers to start slowing so they're compliant with the 30 when they reach it - the camera will be there to catch those who simply don't slow down quickly enough - or even at all in some cases.

 

[Buckman]

Many authorities have introduced short 40 mph buffers just before a 30 mph limit, to try to get drivers to start slowing so they're compliant with the 30 when they reach it - the camera will be there to catch those who simply don't slow down quickly enough - or even at all in some cases.

No issue with that as again a "safety" feature. Not sure why they would want a "safety speed" camera as you are leaving a 30mph zone to enter a 60mph zone and it is in a rural area.

Looking on Google earth you can see the A443 entering Great Witley. On the right is the B4197. If you come out of the B4197which is 40mph to turn left there is no 30mph sign before the camera van location. Turning left because you need to go up a small incline there is a tendency to accelerate plus the fact that it is rural. After the camera van is the first indication that you are in a 30mph.

Turning right out of the B4197 there is one 30mph sign on a signpost pole and only on one side so could be easily missed if you are looking at the direction sign post. BTW they normally have the speed camera van parked just before that sign so it you have just enter the A443 you may be caught speeding.

We are lucky that we are familiar with the area, but unsuspecting drivers will be caught and "unfairly" penalised.

 

[Woodentop]

I got caught at Walton near Wetherby in 2021. I was driving north-ish heading for Wetherby when I decided to turn into the Thorp Arch retail (eh?) park (its a former ROF site but now houses the British Library store.) As I came off the roundabout and turned in on a 40 limit the speed limit was indicated as 30. When I drove out at the other end back onto the original road the signs were plain paint on my side. What I didn't know was that 40 had become 30 between my entry and exit. I drove on without seeing any more signs until I passed the camera and rounded a 45deg bend to find a derestriction sign in front of me.
After I got the ticket I went back and had another look. Where I had exited the retail park was a tall overgrown bush on my left and then a curve. Buried in the top of that bush - where you had to look for it - was a 30 repeater sign. We had gone to a village hall table-top sale and whilst there I got chatting to a couple of chaps. One had been done for speeding at the same point, and the other's daughter the same. The irony? All three of us got done for 48mph in a 30. I checked my dashcam and was doing 47 - if it had been 46 I would have challenged it. Did a (Zoom) Driver Course so no points.

 

[otherclive]

I got caught at Walton near Wetherby in 2021. I was driving north-ish heading for Wetherby when I decided to turn into the Thorp Arch retail (eh?) park (its a former ROF site but now houses the British Library store.) As I came off the roundabout and turned in on a 40 limit the speed limit was indicated as 30. When I drove out at the other end back onto the original road the signs were plain paint on my side. What I didn't know was that 40 had become 30 between my entry and exit. I drove on without seeing any more signs until I passed the camera and rounded a 45deg bend to find a derestriction sign in front of me.
After I got the ticket I went back and had another look. Where I had exited the retail park was a tall overgrown bush on my left and then a curve. Buried in the top of that bush - where you had to look for it - was a 30 repeater sign. We had gone to a village hall table-top sale and whilst there I got chatting to a couple of chaps. One had been done for speeding at the same point, and the other's daughter the same. The irony? All three of us got done for 48mph in a 30. I checked my dashcam and was doing 47 - if it had been 46 I would have challenged it. Did a (Zoom) Driver Course so no points.

What’s the basis for challenging 46mph and not 47mph? Wouldn't the fact that the sign was obscured by the bush have been valid enough reason. But had it been a 40 mph limit even 46 mph is more than 10% above the limit even if the county police give a 10% margin.

 

[Hutch]

Buckman, I can see where you mean along the A451. There is a lack of repeater 40mph speed limit markers. But the 30 MPH signs are pretty clear, on the street view that I used. But there are no street lights, and again a lack of speed limit repeaters, which if no street lights should be there.

 

[RogerL]

What’s the basis for challenging 46mph and not 47mph? Wouldn't the fact that the sign was obscured by the bush have been valid enough reason. But had it been a 40 mph limit even 46 mph is more than 10% above the limit even if the county police give a 10% margin.

There's a misconception that the APCO guidelines gives 10% + 2mph - in reality it only gives 10% +1 mph as the start level of proceedings is 10% + 2mph - so challenging at 46 would have simply doubled the penalty!

 

[RogerL]

Buckman, I can see where you mean along the A451. There is a lack of repeater 40mph speed limit markers. But the 30 MPH signs are pretty clear, on the street view that I used. But there are no street lights, and again a lack of speed limit repeaters, which if no street lights should be there.

Sadly the law doesn't define how frequently the repeaters should be spaced.

 

[otherclive]

Here is the House of Commons research briefing paper on repeater signage intended to update MPs and aid their constituency work. Not an easy read.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01921/SN01921.pdf

 

[Gafferbill]

Looking on Google earth you can see the A443 entering Great Witley. On the right is the B4197. If you come out of the B4197which is 40mph to turn left there is no 30mph sign before the camera van location. Turning left because you need to go up a small incline there is a tendency to accelerate plus the fact that it is rural. After the camera van is the first indication that you are in a 30mph.

....did you miss the 30mph signs both sides of the B4197 as you pass the Great Witley village signs heading towards the T junction with the A433?

 

[Buckman]

Buckman, I can see where you mean along the A451. There is a lack of repeater 40mph speed limit markers. But the 30 MPH signs are pretty clear, on the street view that I used. But there are no street lights, and again a lack of speed limit repeaters, which if no street lights should be there.

On the B road are repeater 40mph signs, but if turning left into A443 zilch 30 or 40mph signs. The camera van was parked in the driveway of the house on the left just before the 30mph sign that ou can see on your right. I don't think there is one on the left?