Speed limit for outfits over 3500kg in France

[Lutz]

The only countries in Europe that allow more than 80km/h on motorways when towing are:

Austria (100km/h if the gross train weight does not exceed 3.5 tonnes)

Belgium (120km/h)

Bulgaria (100km/h)

Cyprus (100km/h)

France (130km/h for outfits under a max. permissible gross train weight of 3.5 tonnes, otherwise 90km/h)

Germany (100km/h, if certain conditions are fulfilled)

Luxembourg (90km/h)

Netherlands (90km/h)

Portugal (100km/h)

Romania (100km/h)

Russia (90km/h)

Slovakia (90km/h)

and, of course, the UK

 

[smiley]

Here we go I think I've cracked it.

if my whole outfit fully laden is 2552kg that - 2552 tonnes.

Is that right??

Can't wait for hubby to answer, mortified am I if its wrong.

But if it's right I'm ok I think aren't I?

 

[Lutz]

2552kg sounds a bit low for the maximum permissible gross train weight of a Mondeo. All the models that I know have a max. gross train weight of at least 3000kg, a few even over 4000kg.

 

[Gumbo]

If you want to work in tons 2552 kg is approx 2.5 ton

1000kg is a metric ton

 

[hasbo]

just read cc mag 2 different french stories , i have 2008 kia sedonna , gross vechicle weight 2,900kg , min kerb weight 2,168 , 2006 bailey burgundy miro 1180 kg , mtplm 1400kg , normally do 60 -65 mph on french motorways can any one please tell me how this affects us...thanks...c&p

 

[Lutz]

The figures that you quote don't allow a definitive answer beacuse you don't say what the max. gross train weight is, only the Sedons's max. gross vehicle weight. Unless I'm mistaken, its maximum permissible towload is 2000kg, therefore I presume that the max. gross train weight is 2900kg (the GVW) plus 2000kg, equals 4900kg, which is well over 3500kg. Therefore, you will be limited to 90km/h on French motorways.

 

[ScouseIan]

Hi Lutz

So, its about the MGTW?

So, a Mondeo towing a twin axle adding up to 3.4t is 'legal' and not limited by this new law. Then, a Sedona towing a 1970 musketeer sprite, weighing considerably less than 3.5t is ILLEGAL, because the MGTW 'could' be over 3.5t???

I know you have been very helpful on this subject and its not your fault, but we are all still confused by it. And its not just us, according to the CC club magazine there are different organisations interpreting this law in different ways.

Does anybody really think the Gendarmes are going to be any clued up than us. If you look wrong, they'll stop you and THEN use whatever law they need.

I think the CC has sat on the fence on this rather than give some common sense advice, which is what they are there for. But of course they can't tell us what they think because if its wrong, it leaves them open to legalities in this mess of a world we live in.

Ian

 

[smiley]

I'm getting confused here what's the difference between a cars kirb and this max towing train weight?

What does it mean??

 

[Lutz]

Like I said before, French law talks about "maximum authorised weight", which would be what is shown on the car's VIN plate. It makes no mention of actual weights. Therefore, my interpretation is that it makes no difference what the caravan actually weighs, so long as the car could tow something that would result in a gross train weight over 3500kg, then you are restricted to 90km/h on French motorways.

It is not unusual for laws to refer only to maximum possible, not actual, conditions. UK driving licence law is the same. If you passed your driving test after the 1st Januuary 1997 you need a categrory B+E licence if the permissible gross train weight exceeds 3500kg, regardless of whether it actually does or not.

 

[smiley]

Success Success Success Success

Our mondeo has a max train weight of 4075 kg

the cars max train weight is 2275 kg

our vans mtw is 1150. were well within the limits.

Before anyone says that's 3.425 and close to the limit.

We never load the car really when towing the only things in there are us 2 and 1 box with bits and 2 light weight chairs, but there's the bikes on roof!!!ooops

We travel very light in the van when going to france Coming back with wine (most important) is much better towing van stays put more.

So working on our kirb weight of 1590 + 1150 = 2740 kg.

I shall re-weigh everything this year as I am now so curious what our max train weight will be.

I got there in the end... -

 

[smiley]

oooooh PS.

 

[smiley]

Silly me I'm so exited,

Seems to me the old fashioned way of weighing stuff is the best.

 

[Lutz]

If the maximum permissble gross train weight of your Mondeo is 4075kg, as you quote, then you are limited to 90km/h, as 4075kg is more than 3500kg. The fact that you are only towing 1150kg instead of a possible 4075-2275=1800kg is irrelevant as French law talks about "maximum authorised", not actual weights. The car's kerbweight is also irrelevant.

 

[smiley]

I think this is where confusion is arising!

Just because you can tow at the mtw doesn't mean that we do.

I phoned our Ford dealer who says they only join the 2 and put the authorise max limits on so you don't go over the limit.

As there is a kirb weight also shown I will use that for towing anywhere. It has always been the rule (for safety) to tow at 85% and that equals your towing weight. If not then I assume you can tow a van at 120% as long as you comply with the max train rule which to me is stupid!!!

If anyone picked on me with towing they would have a mad english woman on their hands.

I will tow as I have always done.

 

[Lutz]

Yes, normally the maximum gross train weight is the sum of the maximum gross vehicle weight and the maximum towload. This is the case for all Fords (I think), although other manufacturers differentiate further (notably Renault).

The 85% formula is not a rule, but a recommendation. It's perhaps a useful guideline but no more than that. Over the years I've done most of my towing without paying attention to kerbweight. In retrospect, the weight ratio was always just under 100%, but this has never given me any problems.

 

[Guest]

That makes most Mondeo's I see towing breaking the limit all the time here.

Plus many many other British, French, German, Dutch and others tow cars.

Passed convoy of three Brit outfits yesterday on the E80. Disco3, Toureg and Volvo with T/A's in tow. They were happy at 65-70 mph.

Some of the German outfit combinations are the biggest we see on both counts car and caravan wise and many do not hang around on the autoroutes.

 

[Lutz]

Many Germans think that once abroad, they can feel free to flaunt the law as it can only be enforced if stopped on the spot. Once you are out of the country, there are no means to enforce fines (yet).

 

[smiley]

Just read a snippet in cc mag. if your over the 3.5t limit on mtw you've got to put the lorry stickers on your van. !!!!!!

Bt they say there are 2 interpretations to this new speed limit.

Got to go now having mri today.

Be back later.

Maybe we ought to put this in towing section too !!!!!

BBFN

 

[Lutz]

What lorry stickers? What new speed limit?

 

[Guest]

I wasn't criticising Lutz. It's just that some of the largest combo's are German it seems, we see plenty of large French outfits racing to the coast and I can't remember the French police hassling anybody unless the outfit looks unfit.

 

[Lutz]

There's often a big difference between what the law says and what is actually enforced. As I said, German police also adopt a fairly pragmatic approach, but one can run into an over-enthusiastic officer every now and again, particularly in Spain. It's best to just try to be sensible and follow the rest of the herd, especially if the law appears to be absurd.

 

[Guest]

Taken directly FROM JULY 2009 CARAVAN CLUB MAGAZINE>

"in the May issue we published new speed limits for vehicles /outfits towing in France that are over 3,5 tonnes in weight. which was provided by the legal departmentaf the Association des Automobilistes. We have since received conflicting information from two different sources: The FFCC (French Camping Org) and the FIA.

These professional organistaionshave interpreted the same French law (code de la Route articles R413-8 and R413-8-1.

FFC has interpreted the law as follows: the lower speed limits of 90kph (on motorways and dual carriageways with central reservation) and 80kph ( on othe roads outside built up areas) are for any outfit where the towing vehicle has a maximum GTM (Gross Train Mass) exceeding 3.5 (as indicated in the vehicles handbook or sometimes on the weight plate) irrespective of the actual weight of the caravan/trailer being towed. If the GTM of the towing vehicle is lss than 3.5t then these lower speed limits do not apply.

The FIA does not agree> it interprests the law to be, that any vehicle or combination of vehicles that has a total GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) of over 3.5t must adhers to the new lower speed limits.

When subject to specific speed limits, as mentioned, sticker indicating these new limits should be displayed on the ack of the trailer. Thers hould be two: on for 80kph and one for 90kph.

Thses stickers can anly be bought from HGV suppliers in France.

The FFCC has advised us that the law is very tolerant towards vehicles that don't have the stickers-however that is only its opinion.

Both the FIA and the FFCC agree that the wording of this law needs to be clarified, and we'll keep you updated if and when this happens.

Our advice for now is to drive at the lower limits if you have aGTM exceeding 3.5t or a combination of vehicles with a GVM (which is the same as the maximum permitted weight) of over 3.5t, and obtain the stickers, until such time as we can confirm the correct interpretation of the law"

I hope CC magazine and PC are happy with that, may be PC could get on the case.

My opinion is that it will be along wait to get any clarification from the French authorities and I would take the FFCC advice about stickers. Only my opinion of course

 

[Guest]

There's often a big difference between what the law says and what is actually enforced. As I said, German police also adopt a fairly pragmatic approach, but one can run into an over-enthusiastic officer every now and again, particularly in Spain. It's best to just try to be sensible and follow the rest of the herd, especially if the law appears to be absurd.

Well I've always found the German police VERY friendly Lutz :0)

 

[Lutz]

I guess we shall just have to wait and see how the courts interpret the law. Neither the FFCC nor the FIA are in a position to give a definitive ruling, no matter how professional they are.

What does surprise me though, is why the issue has suddenly come to light when, to my knowledge, there has been no change in the law. Presumably someone has contested it and this has thrown up questions.

Regarding your reference to Germans towing caravans at well over 90km/h on French motorways, they should be aware that they will lose insurance coverage if proved that they were going over 100km/h at the time of an accident, even though they may be under 3.5 tonnes allowable weight, where France normally allows 130km/h. German insurance companies are very strict about this and the German Auto Club ADAC has always warned motorists going to France not to make full use of French speed limits where 130km/h is permitted.

 

[Guest]

I guess we shall just have to wait and see how the courts interpret the law. Neither the FFCC nor the FIA are in a position to give a definitive ruling, no matter how professional they are.

What does surprise me though, is why the issue has suddenly come to light when, to my knowledge, there has been no change in the law. Presumably someone has contested it and this has thrown up questions.

Regarding your reference to Germans towing caravans at well over 90km/h on French motorways, they should be aware that they will lose insurance coverage if proved that they were going over 100km/h at the time of an accident, even though they may be under 3.5 tonnes allowable weight, where France normally allows 130km/h. German insurance companies are very strict about this and the German Auto Club ADAC has always warned motorists going to France not to make full use of French speed limits where 130km/h is permitted.

Same here Lutz. I'm not aware of any change.

I asked our local Policeman and as far as he's concerned nothing has changed, his view is that they don't alientate tourists. They leave that to the Spaniards.

He holidays in Spain with motorhome and trailer and always travels at around 100-110kph (surete) on French autoroute.