Speed limit for outfits over 3500kg in France

[Lutz]

Taken directly FROM JULY 2009 CARAVAN CLUB MAGAZINE>

"in the May issue we published new speed limits for vehicles /outfits towing in France that are over 3,5 tonnes in weight. which was provided by the legal departmentaf the Association des Automobilistes. We have since received conflicting information from two different sources: The FFCC (French Camping Org) and the FIA.

These professional organistaionshave interpreted the same French law (code de la Route articles R413-8 and R413-8-1.

FFC has interpreted the law as follows: the lower speed limits of 90kph (on motorways and dual carriageways with central reservation) and 80kph ( on othe roads outside built up areas) are for any outfit where the towing vehicle has a maximum GTM (Gross Train Mass) exceeding 3.5 (as indicated in the vehicles handbook or sometimes on the weight plate) irrespective of the actual weight of the caravan/trailer being towed. If the GTM of the towing vehicle is lss than 3.5t then these lower speed limits do not apply.

The FIA does not agree> it interprests the law to be, that any vehicle or combination of vehicles that has a total GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) of over 3.5t must adhers to the new lower speed limits.

When subject to specific speed limits, as mentioned, sticker indicating these new limits should be displayed on the ack of the trailer. Thers hould be two: on for 80kph and one for 90kph.

Thses stickers can anly be bought from HGV suppliers in France.

The FFCC has advised us that the law is very tolerant towards vehicles that don't have the stickers-however that is only its opinion.

Both the FIA and the FFCC agree that the wording of this law needs to be clarified, and we'll keep you updated if and when this happens.

Our advice for now is to drive at the lower limits if you have aGTM exceeding 3.5t or a combination of vehicles with a GVM (which is the same as the maximum permitted weight) of over 3.5t, and obtain the stickers, until such time as we can confirm the correct interpretation of the law"

I hope CC magazine and PC are happy with that, may be PC could get on the case.

My opinion is that it will be along wait to get any clarification from the French authorities and I would take the FFCC advice about stickers. Only my opinion of course

As I read it, the FFCC interprets the law to refer to gross train weight over 3.5 tonnes whereas the FIA says it refers only to the gross vehicle weight.

I don't understand the FIA's interpretation. To me the text of the law is quite clear. It says, quote, "..... v

 

[smiley]

I'm back.

exact translation

. v

 

[Lutz]

What is a car/caravan combination if it's not a 'group of vehicles'?

I just rechecked the French text of Article 413-8 of the 'Code de la Route' to find that the law has been in effect since the 31st December 2006, so it's taken a very long time for someone to wake up and interpret its meaning.

 

[ValA.]

Lutz - it's the alteration to R413-8-1 which has caused the controversy. I've just found our magazine, and it states that there was a change to the rules on the 30th July 2008 in Ref R413-8-1 (compared to R413-8 which was the pre-existing rule until 30/7/08) - where the paragraph 'ou des ensembles de vehicles vises au meme article dont le poids total authorise en charge du vehicle tracteur est inferieur or egal a 3.5 tonnes et le poids total roulant authorise superieur a 3.5 tonnes et inferieur ou egal a 12 tonnes' was added to the previous text.

The article contains a petition which French caravanners are encouraged to send back to the magazine, asking for this change to be repealed.

Our Mondeo GTW is just under the limit at 3460 according to OH who's just phoned.

 

[ValA.]

Sorry, got that the wrong way around - the block of text in punctuation marks in my previous post was REMOVED from the Ref. R413-8-1 after 30/7/2008.

The articles in the French magazine are equally confused!

 

[smiley]

In england 2 vehicles do not a group make. If someone was talking about groups of vehiles it would be considerably more than 2. So the wording and English grammar are incorrect.

Two is a couple or a pair.... and towing I believe an outfit....

 

[Lutz]

I obviously haven't got the latest issue of Article 413-8, but the way I read the newer text that you supplied, it says: "..... or groups of vehicles where the towing vehicle has a maximum authorised weight less than or equal to 3.5 tonnes and the total permissible weight (I take that to mean gross train weight) is greater than 3.5 tonnes and less than or equal to 12 tonnes ....".

Seems pretty straightforward to me. As soon as the maximum permissible (i.e. NOT actual) gross train weight exceeds 3.5 tonnes, one is restricted to 90km/h.

 

[Lutz]

In england 2 vehicles do not a group make. If someone was talking about groups of vehiles it would be considerably more than 2. So the wording and English grammar are incorrect.

Two is a couple or a pair.... and towing I believe an outfit....

They are obviously not referring to a car towing more than one caravan, so a group in this context must mean two.

 

[Jennifer2]

Does anyone know what diameter these stickers should be? And are they the ones with a red border?

 

[Guest]

For goodness sake, you don't need speed stickers.

When all the French start to use them and Gendarmmes start to give warnings about them that will be different.

There's nothing really new about this and the only smaller outfits we see here at home in France with speed stickers are vans and 4x4 towing market type trailers. Some French travellers have speed stickers but they can often have a second trailer attached to the caravan.

The FFCC (French Caravan and Camping Org) are not concerned so why would Brits get there nickers in a twist! You have a GB plate and GB number plates and that'll do fine.

If it was a real concern in France the speed stickers would be on sale everywhere!

If our local Gendarmes is not concerned about his own outfit I'm happy with ours the same as most large outfits on our French roads.

 

[Jennifer2]

As per a reply on the other thread, we prefer to comply where possible. We do not need a lecture.

I would still appreciate answers to my questions.

 

[Lutz]

Maybe Euros wording was a bit inappropriate, but I do concur with him that the apparent requirement shouldn't be taken too seriously, especially as French caravanners are contesting its validity, as well.

 

[Lutz]

Maybe Euros wording was a bit inappropriate, but I do concur with him that one shouldn't take the apparent requirement too seriously, especially as French caravanners seem to be contesting its validity, as well.

Besides, no-one has confirmed that it applies to foreign registered outfits.

 

[Guest]

If no one in France is expecting caravanners to comply what are you complying to. When the French can't agree and don't comply if in fact they need to why would anyone else!

My family and I have lived in France for some years, we are supposed to live in one open and free Europe with freedom to move unhindered between the member countries.

UK has different rules re the maximum width of caravan towed on the continent but the police and authorities in the UK accepted that continental cousins with the wider units could use UK roads as visitors.

The GB sticker and UK number plates advise and tell all on continental roads that you are a visitor and you and your vehicle our covered by home country regulations.

If we all have to start complying to regional stickering for every country we pass in to it will be more EU madness.

Until there is clear indication that the speed sticker regulation is an issue plastering the back of caravans with speed stickers is just going to lead to more wasted expense for everyone.

All the fuss about 90 kph, if you are all so legally minded why are you so worried about a 4mph difference between UK and France.

Other vehicles in France have displaed lower speed signs for years so why all the hooha now. It is not up to British caravanners to set a trend.

If UK caravanners visiting France and Europe are so concerned about the laws and safety why not tow at the speed considered safe in your own country and obey local speeds where indicated.

I don't want to see instruction or lecture here or from the caravan club based on indifferent information that I can't see as being new and when there is no clear dictat from my own French police. It seems that they haven't a clue!

When the French legal system and the FIA and FFCC agree then will be the time to do something. The way the French work that will be sometime never!

The only issue should be for visiting caravanners to other EU countries to display good manners on and off the road.

If we go on this way, the next thing is they will be expecting us to carry local style number plates to swap to every time we cross a border.

 

[Guest]

Maybe Euros wording was a bit inappropriate, but I do concur with him that one shouldn't take the apparent requirement too seriously, especially as French caravanners seem to be contesting its validity, as well.

Besides, no-one has confirmed that it applies to foreign registered outfits.

Your probably right Lutz. Our outfits are well cared for and kept in fine fettle and are fit for the road. Italy is a short drive and our friend farm near Gerona an easy drive with the van. The thought of stickering up and hanging long load signs off the back of the van would drive me crazy.

If my wife came back from LeClerc with the shopping and said lets go to the Algarve or Belgium we could be hitched and gone in an hour, I'm not going to go in to worry mode about "stickers" or some minor variation in regional regulations.

 

[Chrisbee]

I'm off on my usual trip to France in the morning. My outfit won't have speed stickers and I expect I'll creep over 90kph on the autoroute where I consider it to be safe. I'll let you know if I get a pull from the local boys in blue.

 

[Guest]

Bon route Chrisbee.

You probably have more chance of getting pulled by Zarcozy on stilts dressed as de Gaulle than get pulled by Jean-Claude le Plod

 

[Forbes1]

There appears to be some confusion over maximum authorised mass and train weights here. Maximum authorised mass or MAM (an EU term) is the same as maximum gross weight (or MGW) which is the heaviest your car can weigh. Take my VW Touran, its kerb weight is 1650kgs, its MAM is 2200kgs and its max towing weight is 1500 kgs. Normally if you take the MAM and the max tow weight, in my case 2200 + 1500, you get the max train weight, which is 3700 kgs for me or 3.7 Tonnes. I am therefore only able to tow at 90kph although I usually do more than this, anywhere between 100 & 110kph and have not had any problems. Normally its the Dutch and Belgians overtaking! Hope this helps!

 

[smiley]

Hi Forbes

If your car has a maximum authorised mass/gross vehicle weight (they mean the same) of 2200 whether towing or not that is the limit of your car, when you put stuff in or on it you cannot go above this figure.

Your caravan has a max of 1500 fully laiden which is within your cars towing limits.

So when your towing the max is 3700kgs/3.7t you cannot go above these weights on either. This is not your gross train weight.

Gross train weight is different it allows you to tow at 108%limit for some strange reason.

I know go figure, it doesn't make any sense. Whoever, has done this should be made known so we could all ask our questions.

Go to Direct Gov they give you examples there.

Hope this helps

 

[rayc]

I have a Motorhome with a Maximum Gross Weight of 3500kg. It has a Maximum Train Weight of 4800kg. I would think that the above figures are typical of 90% of the Motorhomes on the roads of France. I have just returned from a 3 week tour of France and never saw any speed restriction signs on any of the thousands of Motorhomes I saw { or for that matter caravans}. I believe these signs are only required on commercial vehicles and if it is the law that private vehicles require them then the French are oblivious to it.

 

[Gafferbill]

It was ever thus whatever the country!!

Here in the UK Trucks over 7.5 tons are only allowed to travel at speeds up to 40mph on single carriageway roads.

Enforcement of this law is as rare as a pregnant man.

 

[Forbes1]

Smiley, thanks for your reply. However, I always check my VIN plate for my MAM, axle weights and Max train weight. My MAM is actaually 2210kgs, my max towing weight is 1500 kgs and my max train weight is 3710 kgs. I just rounded it down. Your train weight is not always 108% as you state, it is whatever the manufacturer stipulates it is. Thing is, the handbook and the VIN plate will always tell you the weights so its easy to check.