Travellers above the law.

[LMH]

Hi Shiraz

Thanks for your posting - some good comments.

The community of Appleby does make lots of money during the fair (along with the council,

 

[LMH]

Lisa, I don`t know what planet you live on but it`s not middle England where the majority of people would think it`s acceptable to steal from a funeral directors !!!!! Yes , me and my wife own a funeral directors and we can always tell when the Travellers are in the vicinity of our village. Why ? because on every occassion Travellers have invaded our village green we have had things stolen from our premises and even been duped by the travellers and had things stolen from our home and business. this cannot be coincidence because in the twenty years we have owned our business we have only experienced problems the travellers are about, "COINCIDENCE" I don`t think so !!!!!. We have even done funerals for travellers and one of them stole Charity donations from us whilst visiting our premises.

I thought you were going to say they stole bodies.

Lisa

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Lisa do you speak Shelta??

 

[colin(bridgend)]

There may be a conflict of terms here - if these people are classed as travellers why are they buying land to set up camp on. Surely as stated previously the true travellers are the gypsys who are nomadic in their ways. The travellers who create the many problems highlighted by the above postings are a true different breed to the genuine gypsy and should not be confused. There are sites set up in south Wales for these so called travellers and they have been trashed in a matter of weeks and the mess left for the local council to clean up is disgusting. These travellers are the ones also for using unatxed/uninsured vehicles on the road and also the theft of private caravans. The genuine gypsy is from a respectable class of society compared to these travellers.

 

[baxtjhn@aol.com]

I have passed many "travellers" sites and have yet to see one that was'nt a tip.

On the other hand I have driven throught many housing estates that look the same.

Many years ago as a young lad,a friend and I decided to head up north and earn some money berry picking.

So off we went loaded up with more equipment that an everest expidition.(no lightweight tents in those days).

We were hitchhicking and got to about 20 miles of our destination,we were totally done in and must have looked like a couple of orphans.

Anyway an old van towing a caravan stopped and asked if we were ok,as it turned out they were heading to the same place so they gave us a lift,helped us pitch our 3 storey tent,gave us our supper and looked after us during our time there.

Now they had 3 young children of their own but still fed us and wanted nothing in return.

They told us they were gypsies and travelled all over to earn there living.

Ok so this was many years ago and things have changed.

I have mixed feelings about "travellers" but will always have a warm place in my heart for gypsies,I take as I find and it has got me this far in life without harm.

 

[Janey1]

Lisa,

Whilst I appreciate your point that there are good and bad amongst every type of community (and I fully agree with that statement) if you had suffered the enormous heartbreak, not to mention the huge financial loss of something that you had worked bl**dy hard to save for only to have it lifted by some thieving scumbag pikey who has absolutely NO conscience or feelings towards the people he is stealing from, you might not feel so kindly towards them.

Your comment that you have never had any problems with travellers is probably, because of your existing relationship with them, they see you as "one of them".

In this part of the country, the gypsy sites are no-go areas for the Police who do not have sufficient back up and are too afraid to approach because the travellers reign with terror.

I do agree that the travelling community receive a bad press, but in many instances, it is wholly justified. For those gypsies who do NOT choose to live a criminal lifestyle, it is very unfortunate that they are tarred with the same brush, but they choose to travel so they have to accept that many people do not want them and, I believe this is mainly because they don't seem to contribute anything towards the community they live in because they do not pay taxes etc. yet expect to have their children educated in the schools, have access to doctors/dentists etc. whilst letting someone else pay for it. Also, the mess they leave behind when they move on is disgusting; again, something else that the taxpayer has to fork out to have cleaned up.

Lastly, as caravanners we DO like the freedom to travel but we do not expect other people to pay for the privilege nor do we do it to the detriment of someone else.

Lisa, please don't take this as an attack against you, it isn't. You have every right to your opinion about gypsies, but by the same token, so do others.

Janey1

 

[MarkG.]

I thought you were going to say they stole bodies.

Lisa

What a pathetic response, you obviously have no morals yourself along with these travellers. I say travellers , yes the Tarmacing, Block pavier types , not genuine romany gypsies.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Please all, don't get confused and call gypsies travellers confusing them with Irish Tinkers. Gypsies are the Romany people who migrated across Europe hundreds of years ago from the Indian sub-continent. They normally have a dark swarthy weather beaten skin. They are caring people as John b found out and dont like to be confused with the travellers who give them a bad name and make conditions bad for them. In all honesty the gypsy site next to the Ambulance Station where I worked was kept spotless with no problems from the residents. The warden herself was a gypsy .... and then they came .... the families from Hell. Now a word for Lisa, please dont take this as a personal attack against yourself because you seem and come over on here as a lovely person but nobody makes these travellers act this way. People throughout the country aren't making these stories up because they hate travellers, it is fact, the evidence is there to be seen. Although they originate from Ireland there are more living in the U.K. now and the continent has a sizeable population of them. From the violence Ive witnessed from them even among themselves I would have said they are decendants of Attilla the Hun.

 

[Guest]

Lisa,

I feel you may have got involved with a 'can of worms' with this one. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation the majority of people in the country will always take exception to groups they see flouting the laws, they and others have to uphold. I do note the situation has deteriorated just after the Irish Government changed the law in their own country. There must have been some reason behind it, and the UK has been the unfortunate beneficiary.

I would also point out that the word 'traveller' does not solely apply to people of Irish extraction. On the border of Hungary and Romania live about 500,000 'gypsies' who have failed to integrate into either Romania or Hungary. After fruitlessly spending a lot of money (which is in short supply in Hungary) the Hungarians have grown tired of the problem and have allowed the 'gypsies' to move eastwards, as is their right under EU rules. Some have already arrived in the UK and will be followed by more. I know because I saw the buses crossing the border from Hungary into Austria. I am sure we will see a situation developing where the various 'gypsy', or travelling communities are going to come to blows to decide who gets the 'market'.

If I was an 'Irish traveller' and wished to settle in Britain, I think I would be deciding to go 'native' very rapidly. There is a saying somewhere that states, 'set a thief to catch a thief'.

 

[Lol1]

There may be a conflict of terms here - if these people are classed as travellers why are they buying land to set up camp on. Surely as stated previously the true travellers are the gypsys who are nomadic in their ways. The travellers who create the many problems highlighted by the above postings are a true different breed to the genuine gypsy and should not be confused. There are sites set up in south Wales for these so called travellers and they have been trashed in a matter of weeks and the mess left for the local council to clean up is disgusting. These travellers are the ones also for using unatxed/uninsured vehicles on the road and also the theft of private caravans. The genuine gypsy is from a respectable class of society compared to these travellers.

Very much agree Colin, there is a definite distinction of the two camps and you have accurately described them. One common theme though is that they both stick together; perhaps they feel they need to, but it's not an endearing trait for one particular group.

 

[baxtjhn@aol.com]

I was part of a team involved in a project in Romania during 1992 and met a Dutch lorry driver who told us that a British trucker had died the previous day.

The cause of his death was he had hit a large manhole that had the cover removed whilst driving his artic and was killed instantly(broke his neck).

Apparently the gypsies were blamed for this,the manhole covers were taken for there scrap value,must have been supermen to lift these covers.

We actually saw several manhole covers missing whilst we were there and it seemed that the gypsies were blamed for everything.

In our experience it was the police and government officials who were the crooks.

Apart from the drunk taxi driver who side swiped us,he got 2 years in jail......

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Please all, don't get confused and call gypsies travellers confusing them with Irish Tinkers. Gypsies are the Romany people who migrated across Europe hundreds of years ago from the Indian sub-continent. They normally have a dark swarthy weather beaten skin. They are caring people as John b found out and dont like to be confused with the travellers who give them a bad name and make conditions bad for them. In all honesty the gypsy site next to the Ambulance Station where I worked was kept spotless with no problems from the residents. The warden herself was a gypsy .... and then they came .... the families from Hell. Now a word for Lisa, please dont take this as a personal attack against yourself because you seem and come over on here as a lovely person but nobody makes these travellers act this way. People throughout the country aren't making these stories up because they hate travellers, it is fact, the evidence is there to be seen. Although they originate from Ireland there are more living in the U.K. now and the continent has a sizeable population of them. From the violence Ive witnessed from them even among themselves I would have said they are decendants of Attilla the Hun.

Hang on there Lisa or before you know it Lord B will have you tending to the cows, helping in his chamber and making his Horlicks, (watch out as he is on Viagra). Tittilating Tina will be redundant.

 

[LMH]

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this interesting and somewhat heated topic.

I would just like to reply to Mark G. I posted the following comment to him:

I thought you were going to say they stole bodies.

And he replied with the following comment:

16 Nov 2005 03:29 PM What a pathetic response, you obviously have no morals yourself along with these travellers. I say travellers , yes the Tarmacing, Block pavier types , not genuine romany gypsies.

My reply to you Mark is : actually I do have morals. I am an upstanding member of the community, involved in various community initiatives both in my working career and in my personal life. Whilst driving back from a long journey today, I drove around looking for a bin in which to put some rubbish from my car. I do voluntary work for homeless people, raising thousands of pounds anually. I am kind to children, old people and animals, I could go on. I'm actually quite a nice person who just happens to have an involvement with the travelling/gypsy/romany/tinker community.

Regards.

Lisa

 

[LMH]

Lisa do you speak Shelta??

Hi Lord B

No I don't actually but I am learning British Sign Language!!

Lisa x

 

[Tina3]

Hi

I ahve to agree with Lisa, went to a permenent site a year or so ago through work, all the families living in Hobbies ! What a fantastic crowd of people,so so welcoming and genuine, really the nicest bunch of people, they told me that their kids were bullied at school(lovely kids) parents were as bad, they were only allowed at theG.P'S on a monday afternoon as this was "gypsy" day !All this in a so called civilised society, Disgraceful ! Of course there are the bad but crikey how many times will this argument go on ? I thought we all agreed that in every class there was good and bad ? Kids,dog owners,drivers,parents ,travellers, we Cannot keep labelling people !

Tina x

 

[LMH]

Please all, don't get confused and call gypsies travellers confusing them with Irish Tinkers. Gypsies are the Romany people who migrated across Europe hundreds of years ago from the Indian sub-continent. They normally have a dark swarthy weather beaten skin. They are caring people as John b found out and dont like to be confused with the travellers who give them a bad name and make conditions bad for them. In all honesty the gypsy site next to the Ambulance Station where I worked was kept spotless with no problems from the residents. The warden herself was a gypsy .... and then they came .... the families from Hell. Now a word for Lisa, please dont take this as a personal attack against yourself because you seem and come over on here as a lovely person but nobody makes these travellers act this way. People throughout the country aren't making these stories up because they hate travellers, it is fact, the evidence is there to be seen. Although they originate from Ireland there are more living in the U.K. now and the continent has a sizeable population of them. From the violence Ive witnessed from them even among themselves I would have said they are decendants of Attilla the Hun.

Sounds like an interesting job to me!!

Lisa

 

[LMH]

Hi

I ahve to agree with Lisa, went to a permenent site a year or so ago through work, all the families living in Hobbies ! What a fantastic crowd of people,so so welcoming and genuine, really the nicest bunch of people, they told me that their kids were bullied at school(lovely kids) parents were as bad, they were only allowed at theG.P'S on a monday afternoon as this was "gypsy" day !All this in a so called civilised society, Disgraceful ! Of course there are the bad but crikey how many times will this argument go on ? I thought we all agreed that in every class there was good and bad ? Kids,dog owners,drivers,parents ,travellers, we Cannot keep labelling people !

Tina x

Thanks Tina, I suppose as we are 999's too, we meet people from all walks of life and that certainly makes our job more interesting don't you agree?

Hope you had a good holiday.

Lisa

 

[chrissie2]

Hi

I ahve to agree with Lisa, went to a permenent site a year or so ago through work, all the families living in Hobbies ! What a fantastic crowd of people,so so welcoming and genuine, really the nicest bunch of people, they told me that their kids were bullied at school(lovely kids) parents were as bad, they were only allowed at theG.P'S on a monday afternoon as this was "gypsy" day !All this in a so called civilised society, Disgraceful ! Of course there are the bad but crikey how many times will this argument go on ? I thought we all agreed that in every class there was good and bad ? Kids,dog owners,drivers,parents ,travellers, we Cannot keep labelling people !

Tina x

Lisa, It is good to have your input on this subject. So much of what has been said amounts to no more than well-worn prejudice, so your 'inside knowledge' is a valuable contribution.

I really believe this 'real, honest gypsies' versus 'thieving travellers' nonsense is no more than an urban myth. I could take you to a large, council owned gypsy site not too far from where I live, where the police only venture with armed officers as support and which is a total nightmare for everyone in the area (including the decent, honest members of the gypsy community who have the misfortune to live there - that there are some, I know, since I have often employed them over the years). Equally, I could take you to traveller sites where I would be proud to live myself.

I am well aware of the negative issues here. The carpark at my workplace was taken over by a large traveller group during the summer and it was left in a disgusting condition. No one would condone that. But the point I was making yesterday is really that when individuals from either of the itinerant communities try to do what most of you seem to think they should do, that is to buy property, pay taxes and rates, get an honest job and eduacate their children so that they in turn can earn a decent living, they are invariably met with opposition and hostility from all quarters. Yet the small, family sites that I have seen have been without exception clean and peaceful, often nicely landscaped and their owners are making a real contribution to the local community.

I do not see how matters can be improved by forcing families from a nomadic background to become more and more marginalised. That way, they are often left with few legitimate options for earning a living. It is only by accepting that, although they may have a slightly different way of life from the majority of us, their basic needs are much the same and they need to be included in society, that we will ever reach a point where they are able to take from and contribute to the community in the same way that we all do. As human beings, we have more that unites us than the relativly trivial things that divide us. Surely we can see beyond the stereotype to the individuals - whatever their background.

 

[BobT_5041460]

Lisa. In reply to your letter re land was bought with counterfeit money. The person who owned the ground was paid

 

[LMH]

Thanks for the reply Bob.

The offer still stands by the way folks.

Lisa

 

[LMH]

Hi

I ahve to agree with Lisa, went to a permenent site a year or so ago through work, all the families living in Hobbies ! What a fantastic crowd of people,so so welcoming and genuine, really the nicest bunch of people, they told me that their kids were bullied at school(lovely kids) parents were as bad, they were only allowed at theG.P'S on a monday afternoon as this was "gypsy" day !All this in a so called civilised society, Disgraceful ! Of course there are the bad but crikey how many times will this argument go on ? I thought we all agreed that in every class there was good and bad ? Kids,dog owners,drivers,parents ,travellers, we Cannot keep labelling people !

Tina x

Chrissie

Thanks for your support, it's greatly appreciated. There will always be predudice and hatred towards these communities. It's worse now than it was when I was a child. I'll stand by what I have said and continue to speak out.

It's nice to know I have at least a couple of allies.

Best wishes

Lisa.

 

[Tina3]

Hi

I ahve to agree with Lisa, went to a permenent site a year or so ago through work, all the families living in Hobbies ! What a fantastic crowd of people,so so welcoming and genuine, really the nicest bunch of people, they told me that their kids were bullied at school(lovely kids) parents were as bad, they were only allowed at theG.P'S on a monday afternoon as this was "gypsy" day !All this in a so called civilised society, Disgraceful ! Of course there are the bad but crikey how many times will this argument go on ? I thought we all agreed that in every class there was good and bad ? Kids,dog owners,drivers,parents ,travellers, we Cannot keep labelling people !

Tina x

Hi Lisa

If the "job" is good for anything then its opening your eyes!!! I'm sorry to say and I'm gonna get shot down,but I would rather be around some of these so called"lower class" people than some of the rich,stuck up,eyes closed,blinkered idiots out there ! I have to say that of the nasty people I have met,(and thats a few)they where from the "upper"classes!

Lisa cant wait to see you,got my receipt! Henley was beautiful !!!

Tina x

 

[chrissie2]

Lisa, I posted something an hour or so back, but it seems to have gone missing. I am so glad you have felt able to join in this debate. So much of what is said on the subject is just blind prejudice that it makes a refreshing change to hear from someone who knows the story from the inside.

I really do believe that the 'good, honest gypsy' versus 'thieving traveller' argument is nothing more than an urban myth. I could take you to a gypsy site not to far from where I live which is a total nightmare. The police generally only enter with armed officers as backup and local residents (including those decent citizens who live on the site - I know there are some, since I have employed some of them over the years) are subject to constant harassment. Equally, as I have said before, I know of 'traveller' sites that I would be proud to live on myself.

I am by no means starry-eyed on this issue. The car park of my workplace was taken over by a large group of travellers last summer and left in a disgusting state when they moved on. No one would condone that. But on the other hand, if we as a society insist on marginalising all those whose lifestyle differs from that of the majority, we can hardly be surprised if the marginalised group fails to comply with our standards.

Most of you seem to agree that nomadic communities, whatever their origin, should pay taxes, rates etc. Yet almost invariably, when they try to do this and settle on land that they have bought, so that they can earn an honest living, send their children to school so that they in turn can get decent jobs, their attempts to join mainstream society are opposed by all and sundry in the neighbourhood, regardless of whether they are likely to be in any way adversely affected. Yet I know of many small family sites, which are beautifully landscaped and maintained with obvious pride, adding much to the local community. As I said before, I pass three such (on the A16 if anyone is interested) every day and defy anyone to say that they have in any way caused harm to the area. I have no idea of the ethnicity of the residents. But when people work hard, care for their homes and environment, I admire their efforts, whether their home is a caravan or a mansion.

 

[LMH]

Hi

I ahve to agree with Lisa, went to a permenent site a year or so ago through work, all the families living in Hobbies ! What a fantastic crowd of people,so so welcoming and genuine, really the nicest bunch of people, they told me that their kids were bullied at school(lovely kids) parents were as bad, they were only allowed at theG.P'S on a monday afternoon as this was "gypsy" day !All this in a so called civilised society, Disgraceful ! Of course there are the bad but crikey how many times will this argument go on ? I thought we all agreed that in every class there was good and bad ? Kids,dog owners,drivers,parents ,travellers, we Cannot keep labelling people !

Tina x

Hi Tina

Agree 100%. The district we cover is extremely affluent (Kenneth Clarke's our MP). Despite this, there are pockets of extreme deprivation. I've been working on an alarming case recently which would break your heart. Got some good tales to tell you about the 'old money people' who live round here too!

Glad you enjoyed Henley - did golden boy turn up?

Lisa.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Lisa, I posted something an hour or so back, but it seems to have gone missing. I am so glad you have felt able to join in this debate. So much of what is said on the subject is just blind prejudice that it makes a refreshing change to hear from someone who knows the story from the inside.

I really do believe that the 'good, honest gypsy' versus 'thieving traveller' argument is nothing more than an urban myth. I could take you to a gypsy site not to far from where I live which is a total nightmare. The police generally only enter with armed officers as backup and local residents (including those decent citizens who live on the site - I know there are some, since I have employed some of them over the years) are subject to constant harassment. Equally, as I have said before, I know of 'traveller' sites that I would be proud to live on myself.

I am by no means starry-eyed on this issue. The car park of my workplace was taken over by a large group of travellers last summer and left in a disgusting state when they moved on. No one would condone that. But on the other hand, if we as a society insist on marginalising all those whose lifestyle differs from that of the majority, we can hardly be surprised if the marginalised group fails to comply with our standards.

Most of you seem to agree that nomadic communities, whatever their origin, should pay taxes, rates etc. Yet almost invariably, when they try to do this and settle on land that they have bought, so that they can earn an honest living, send their children to school so that they in turn can get decent jobs, their attempts to join mainstream society are opposed by all and sundry in the neighbourhood, regardless of whether they are likely to be in any way adversely affected. Yet I know of many small family sites, which are beautifully landscaped and maintained with obvious pride, adding much to the local community. As I said before, I pass three such (on the A16 if anyone is interested) every day and defy anyone to say that they have in any way caused harm to the area. I have no idea of the ethnicity of the residents. But when people work hard, care for their homes and environment, I admire their efforts, whether their home is a caravan or a mansion.

Chrissie you posted it under comments.