Truma Aventa Compact Plus A/C fitted, but missing a document

[Dustydog]

A strange thread.
Two issues arise for me.
1. The Statutory Requirements for installation of another circuit into an existing set up.
2. Consumer Rights Law.

Reading the OP it is clear some major additional works have been installed into his caravan.
It is well documented even the NCC adhere to construction regulations for both LPG and Electricity. Hence why all the new caravans I have purchased over decades come with official Compliance Certificates confirming, allegedly an independent check, has been carried out on the installations.

The OP was absolutely right to request the document.

If anything goes wrong then as explained previously he has a claim against the person who sold it to him.
Remind me did he purchase direct from The Dealer or Truma?

 

[Martin_E]

However .... the definition (if and when poop has hit the fan) of being competent is indeed a current professional qualification or recognised certificated training , any other excuse / reason for claiming competence would fail.

You don’t need qualifications or certifications to be competent.

Appoint a competent person - HSE

As an employer, you must appoint a competent person or people to help you meet your health and safety legal duties.

www.hse.gov.uk

“What a competent person does

They should have the skills, knowledge and experience to be able to recognise hazards in your business and help you put sensible controls in place to protect workers and others from harm.

Qualifications and training

It's not usually essential for them to have formal qualifications and they're not required by law to have formal training, although it can help.”

I believe it can also be applied to individuals to.
Obviously there are some things that it doesn’t apply to domestically like gas

 

[otherclive]

You don’t need qualifications or certifications to be competent.

Appoint a competent person - HSE

As an employer, you must appoint a competent person or people to help you meet your health and safety legal duties.

www.hse.gov.uk

“What a competent person does

They should have the skills, knowledge and experience to be able to recognise hazards in your business and help you put sensible controls in place to protect workers and others from harm.

Qualifications and training

It's not usually essential for them to have formal qualifications and they're not required by law to have formal training, although it can help.”

I believe it can also be applied to individuals to.
Obviously there are some things that it doesn’t apply to domestically like gas

Your quotations are total rubbish. Here’s the HSE requirements for a competent person in Electrical Safety. The subject of Saxo’s posting.

Electrical FAQs - Electrical safety

HSE answers some frequently asked questions on electrical safety in the workplace.

www.hse.gov.uk

 

[Martin_E]

Your quotations are total rubbish. Here’s the HSE requirements for a competent person.

Electrical FAQs - Electrical safety

HSE answers some frequently asked questions on electrical safety in the workplace.

www.hse.gov.uk

Oh so what you are saying is if you click on the HSE link above my quotes that the information came from is rubbish.

I would suggest you should contact the HEE and let them know the information they provide is total rubbish 🙄

 

[otherclive]

Oh so what you are saying is if you click on the HSE link above my quotes that the information came from is rubbish.

I would suggest you should contact the HEE and let them know the information they provide is total rubbish 🙄

Yes, total rubbish as regards Electrical Safety. Having established a consultancy in safety and environmental risk I do have knowledge in this area. Your quoting whilst correct in some aspects of health and safety isn’t correct wrt electrical safety. Read my link above and you will understand. Context is everything.

 

[Buckman]

I would think that all the HSE quoted above relates to working in a business environment as there is nothing stopping you from fitting and connecting up your own air con, stove etc if you feel competent enough, but do not have any formal qualifications.

Just to add even a caravan dealership servicing your caravan is unlikely to have a qualified electrician on their payroll to check the system on a caravan or even install an air con and connect it up.

 

[Dustydog]

A lot of HSE is sensible but in many areas totally a CYA Policy.

This from Clive’s
“Can I do my own electrical work?” Says yes but with qualification
Reference to attending courses is good but frankly imo there is nothing better than hands on experience gained by working with an experienced gas or electrical engineer.and in my case the Approved workshop engineer.

As a kid I bought Car Mechanics mag. We repaired our own bikes and cars out of financial necessity.
We learnt from older neighbours who taught us tricks of the trade including holding the hot lead to see if the plug sparked! Never repeated

Similarly with the caravan I believe I am competent to do most things on electricity and gas within the existing installation. And more importantly how to test all the safety aspects once the work is completed.
Eg, removal of the Trumatic gas heater is well documented on line including critical things like renewing The flue gasket.

So for me “Competent” is life experienced based, hands on rather than just Course attended.

 

[otherclive]

I would think that all the HSE quoted above relates to working in a business environment as there is nothing stopping you from fitting and connecting up your own air con, stove etc if you feel competent enough, but do not have any formal qualifications.

Just to add even a caravan dealership servicing your caravan is unlikely to have a qualified electrician on their payroll to check the system on a caravan or even install an air con and connect it up.

Some dealerships offer EIC testing on caravans and their electrician has to be Certified but it could be one bought in for the tests.

 

[Buckman]

Some dealerships offer EIC testing on caravans and their electrician has to be Certified but it could be one bought in for the tests.

I thought EIC testing was for dogs? EIC Exercise Induced Collapse.

 

[otherclive]

A lot of HSE is sensible but in many areas totally a CYA Policy.

This from Clive’s
“Can I do my own electrical work?” Says yes but with qualification
Reference to attending courses is good but frankly imo there is nothing better than hands on experience gained by working with an experienced gas or electrical engineer.and in my case the Approved workshop engineer.

As a kid I bought Car Mechanics mag. We repaired our own bikes and cars out of financial necessity.
We learnt from older neighbours who taught us tricks of the trade including holding the hot lead to see if the plug sparked! Never repeated

Similarly with the caravan I believe I am competent to do most things on electricity and gas within the existing installation. And more importantly how to test all the safety aspects once the work is completed.
Eg, removal of the Trumatic gas heater is well documented on line including critical things like renewing The flue gasket.

So for me “Competent” is life experienced based, hands on rather than just Course attended.

You have ignored the section above in the HSE guidance where not only does it require attendance on course(s) but to also have the ability to not only to understand the theory but to put it into practice. This is different to doing your own work. To my mind if a dealership , or Truma sub contractor does work on your caravan it comes into that category of requirements. The OPs post is not about anyone’s competence, or not, to do work on their own caravan, but about him not receiving a the appropriate documentation.

 

[Dustydog]

I felt the debate between you and Martin took us down the road of being Competent.

 

[Martin_E]

My original reply I believe to be perfectly ok
“However .... the definition (if and when poop has hit the fan) of being competent is indeed a current professional qualification or recognised certificated training , any other excuse / reason for claiming competence would fail.”

My link showed otherwise, but obviously it does depend on the situation, but as the quote was very broad my answer covered my point.
A piece of paper in court won’t give immunity, you still need to prove the job was done to the correct standards etc

 

[ProfJohnL]

My original reply I believe to be perfectly ok
“However .... the definition (if and when poop has hit the fan) of being competent is indeed a current professional qualification or recognised certificated training , any other excuse / reason for claiming competence would fail.”

My link showed otherwise, but obviously it does depend on the situation, but as the quote was very broad my answer covered my point.
A piece of paper in court won’t give immunity, you still need to prove the job was done to the correct standards etc

Doing the job is one thing,.

There a multiple situations where work on installation ( gas and electrical) by law have to carried out by a professional, yet for missguided reasons the caravan industry has lobbied to retain certain freedoms to allow untrained non professionals carry out work on systems which elsewhere they are considered to be safety critical and only trained and approved fitters are allowed to work on them.

Yet in caravans which are subject to far more aggressive wear and tear through vibrations and wider range of temperatures and humidity, in a body which has often been shown to be a tinderbox. rank amateurs are allowed to practice without supervision, or checks.

Whilst some of the regulations have special dispensations for over sight allowing private owners (and only private owners) to work on their own caravan, the regulations that set the standards for work, the type of fittings used, the standards for testing have not been relieved,

Realistically its very unlikely that a DIYer will have the knowledge of how to fully test, be able to justify the cost of compliant test equipment, or have the said equipment fully maintained and calibrated.

Having seen the aftermath of consumer tampering ( with Gas , Electrical, and water), I am very much in favour of removing the ad hoc arrangements afforded to caravanners.

 

[Dustydog]

Doing the job is one thing,.

There a multiple situations where work on installation ( gas and electrical) by law have to carried out by a professional, yet for missguided reasons the caravan industry has lobbied to retain certain freedoms to allow untrained non professionals carry out work on systems which elsewhere they are considered to be safety critical and only trained and approved fitters are allowed to work on them.

Yet in caravans which are subject to far more aggressive wear and tear through vibrations and wider range of temperatures and humidity, in a body which has often been shown to be a tinderbox. rank amateurs are allowed to practice without supervision, or checks.

Whilst some of the regulations have special dispensations for over sight allowing private owners (and only private owners) to work on their own caravan, the regulations that set the standards for work, the type of fittings used, the standards for testing have not been relieved,

Realistically its very unlikely that a DIYer will have the knowledge of how to fully test, be able to justify the cost of compliant test equipment, or have the said equipment fully maintained and calibrated.

Having seen the aftermath of consumer tampering ( with Gas , Electrical, and water), I am very much in favour of removing the ad hoc arrangements afforded to caravanners.

Sadly Prof there is no denying your statement is factual and technically correct.

But then I have to ask myself what is the point of a DIY magazine like Practical Caravan. 🤔
The corollary to your answer maybe that all of us should cease offering any technical advice on anything connected with caravan habitation or running gear🙀

 

[Martin_E]

Doing the job is one thing,.

There a multiple situations where work on installation ( gas and electrical) by law have to carried out by a professional, yet for missguided reasons the caravan industry has lobbied to retain certain freedoms to allow untrained non professionals carry out work on systems which elsewhere they are considered to be safety critical and only trained and approved fitters are allowed to work on them.

Yet in caravans which are subject to far more aggressive wear and tear through vibrations and wider range of temperatures and humidity, in a body which has often been shown to be a tinderbox. rank amateurs are allowed to practice without supervision, or checks.

Whilst some of the regulations have special dispensations for over sight allowing private owners (and only private owners) to work on their own caravan, the regulations that set the standards for work, the type of fittings used, the standards for testing have not been relieved,

Realistically its very unlikely that a DIYer will have the knowledge of how to fully test, be able to justify the cost of compliant test equipment, or have the said equipment fully maintained and calibrated.

Having seen the aftermath of consumer tampering ( with Gas , Electrical, and water), I am very much in favour of removing the ad hoc arrangements afforded to caravanners.

I tend to agree, I was purely pointing out in relation to the must be done by trained etc etc etc was not correct.

Sadly Prof there is no denying your statement is factual and technically correct.

But then I have to ask myself what is the point of a DIY magazine like Practical Caravan. 🤔
The corollary to your answer maybe that all of us should cease offering any technical advice on anything connected with caravan habitation or running gear🙀

I would also agree with Dusty 👍

 

[Saxo Appeal]

A strange thread.
Two issues arise for me.
1. The Statutory Requirements for installation of another circuit into an existing set up.
2. Consumer Rights Law.

Reading the OP it is clear some major additional works have been installed into his caravan.
It is well documented even the NCC adhere to construction regulations for both LPG and Electricity. Hence why all the new caravans I have purchased over decades come with official Compliance Certificates confirming, allegedly an independent check, has been carried out on the installations.

The OP was absolutely right to request the document.

If anything goes wrong then as explained previously he has a claim against the person who sold it to him.
Remind me did he purchase direct from The Dealer or Truma?

We purchased the Caravan from a well known dealership, then a few months later asked about the deal (which was only for the model above) but Truma approved it for ours, so we left the caravan to have some snags sorted and waited a few months for the Truma engineer to do the install.

We were warned that it could take a while for Truma to visit, but we didn’t have anything else much planned, and the dealer said we could take it out and bring back, which we did.

We haven’t heard anything back as of yet, but will let you all know once I do

 

[ProfJohnL]

Sadly Prof there is no denying your statement is factual and technically correct.

But then I have to ask myself what is the point of a DIY magazine like Practical Caravan.

There is a place for magazines like PC, as there are still many things that a DIY'r can do that are unrelated to systems where ill informed tampering can be dangerous or illegal.

 

[Buckman]

A strange thread.
Two issues arise for me.
1. The Statutory Requirements for installation of another circuit into an existing set up.
2. Consumer Rights Law.

Reading the OP it is clear some major additional works have been installed into his caravan.
It is well documented even the NCC adhere to construction regulations for both LPG and Electricity. Hence why all the new caravans I have purchased over decades come with official Compliance Certificates confirming, allegedly an independent check, has been carried out on the installations.

The OP was absolutely right to request the document.

If anything goes wrong then as explained previously he has a claim against the person who sold it to him.
Remind me did he purchase direct from The Dealer or Truma?

When fitting an air con normally the wiring is already in place so not adding another circuit merely "plugging into" the existing circuit which is why most people can do the job.

Also as said it is the dealership that is probably responsible for the installation if the consumer paid the dealer. I doubt very much if Truma have their own technicians going around fitting air cons. That work is normally done by third parties who are independent agents, but are appointed by Truma to fit and repair Truma units.

 

[ProfJohnL]

When fitting an air con normally the wiring is already in place so not adding another circuit merely "plugging into" the existing circuit which is why most people can do the job.

That may be true for a few models of caravan but from my experience it isn't always the case, far more do not prewire for Air Con.

 

[Buckman]

That may be true for a few models of caravan but from my experience it isn't always the case, far more do not prewire for Air Con.

All our Lunars were pre-wired and they were not top of the range. Same with the Buccaneers. Not sure but I think they use the wiring for the Omnivent.

Although for the Omnivent it is 12v, this is not an issue to replace and re-route the wiring and connect it into the 240v system. Thus you are basically plugging into an existing 240v system. Most air cons can work off the 12v system with the correct adapters.

 

[ProfJohnL]

All our Lunars were pre-wired and they were not top of the range. Same with the Buccaneers. Not sure but I think they use the wiring for the Omnivent.

Although for the Omnivent it is 12v, this is not an issue to replace and re-route the wiring and connect it into the 240v system. Thus you are basically plugging into an existing 240v system. Most air cons can work off the 12v system with the correct adapters.

So you are agreeing that many do not pre wire for AC.

There are several problems with using 12V wiring to carry 230V ac quite simply the wiring insulation is the wrong specification and contrary to the wiring regs and represents a hazard. Colours are often wrong, and someone might see 12V style wiring and not be aware its carrying lethal voltages.

And that is why such things should only fitted by qualified approved fitters.

 

[Buckman]

So you are agreeing that many do not pre wire for AC.

There are several problems with using 12V wiring to carry 230V ac quite simply the wiring insulation is the wrong specification and contrary to the wiring regs and represents a hazard. Colours are often wrong, and someone might see 12V style wiring and not be aware its carrying lethal voltages.

And that is why such things should only fitted by qualified approved fitters.

Not sure why you think I am saying they are not pre-wired for AC? neither did I state that they use the 12v wiring to carry the 240v. Since when have caravan manufacturers complied with wiring regs regarding colours etc.

I suspect that the "12v wiring" is suited for 240v so no issue wiring it in. However as you are the expert on installing air con. I will leave it at that!

 

[RogerL]

Not sure why you think I am saying they are not pre-wired for AC? neither did I state that they use the 12v wiring to carry the 240v. Since when have caravan manufacturers complied with wiring regs regarding colours etc.

I suspect that the "12v wiring" is suited for 240v so no issue wiring it in. However as you are the expert on installing air con. I will leave it at that!

Most Lunars won't be pre-wired for A/C because none of the roofs would support it - apart from Delta and the last year or so of production which had bonded sandwich roof.

 

[Buckman]

Most Lunars won't be pre-wired for A/C because none of the roofs would support it - apart from Delta and the last year or so of production which had bonded sandwich roof.

Just to clarify I did state that all OUR Lunars were probably pre-wired as I have no idea about other Lunars.

I also stated that "when fitting an air con normally the wiring is already in place so not adding another circuit merely "plugging into" the existing circuit which is why most people can do the job".

Again I should have said that all the caravans we have purchased have wiring in place and more than likely this wiring was used to connect up the air con i.e. there was wiring or a spur off the main circuit for the Omnivent.

Then it is probably a simple matter of connecting heavier duty wiring and dragging it through the roof to replace the original wiring and connecting to a 240v supply.

However I would think it is cheaper for any caravan manufacturer to simply use one grade of wire than to have different grades as whether 12 or 240v the wiring is the same.

 

[RogerL]

Just to clarify I did state that all OUR Lunars were probably pre-wired as I have no idea about other Lunars.

You added "and they were not top of the range" while the truth is that only Lunar's top of the range Deltas could be fitted with A/C.

Lunar persisted with loose-skinned roofs for all models up to the Clubman long after other manufacturers had switched to bonded sandwich roofs - this prevented the fitting of roof-mounted A/C and roof mounted satellite dishes.