Will the electric car strategy the govement has kill Caravans

[Tobes]

Not everyone's cup of tea I know, in fact some hate Top Gear with a vengeance. Nevertheless, despite the nonsense, there was something to be gleaned about towing with an EV from episode 2 of the current series.

John

I was so looking forward to that episode. It failed to deliver. The “how far can you get “ ending was stupid. All cars stop when they run out of fuel. They should have had the race to Barnard castle and included charging on route to how charging works, how fast the cars charge, what a splash and dash looks like and how charging with a caravan is also tricky.
All real world issues that do need addressing and could have made for a much better ending that running out of charge.

 

[Jcloughie]

I was so looking forward to that episode. It failed to deliver. The “how far can you get “ ending was stupid. All cars stop when they run out of fuel. They should have had the race to Barnard castle and included charging on route to how charging works, how fast the cars charge, what a splash and dash looks like and how charging with a caravan is also tricky.
All real world issues that do need addressing and could have made for a much better ending that running out of charge.

I agree.

John

 

[JTQ]

Just an additional thought provoked by the News.
Having viewed the ravages of storm Arwen in rural areas served by overhead power lines, and reflected back on our own experiences of two power outages of 10 days, one realises there is another issue with rechargeable EVs. At least in the rural environment, where emergency resources are not prioritised and the failure risks so high.

There is no obvious equivalent solution to the couple of jerry cans of diesel we kept in the barn, to enable getting food and to work. A personal high KVA ICE powered generator or home battery bank? Both a great deal more expensive, "add on" costs than our couple of army surplus jerry cans.

 

[Tobes]

Just an additional thought provoked by the News.
Having viewed the ravages of storm Arwen in rural areas served by overhead power lines, and reflected back on our own experiences of two power outages of 10 days, one realises there is another issue with rechargeable EVs. At least in the rural environment, where emergency resources are not prioritised and the failure risks so high.

There is no obvious equivalent solution to the couple of jerry cans of diesel we kept in the barn, to enable getting food and to work. A personal high KVA ICE powered generator or home battery bank?

Not sure it’s really an issue. If you plan enough to have fresh petrol or diesel in a can in the garage, you can ensure that you charge your car enough to get to another charging location before the storm arrives .
If the storm causes local problems (where your work is) you probably have several days of commute in a full battery. If you work remotely you can charge out of the failed area.
If you commute any distance and there are still issues, there are probably more pressing things to worry about…

 

[JezzerB]

Took the words out of my mouth-always be charged-ABC is the moto with an EV-then if you need a longer journey you can find a charger within your commute.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Took the words out of my mouth-always be charged-ABC is the moto with an EV-then if you need a longer journey you can find a charger within your commute.

Its never that simple.

You could have just arrived home with a much depleted battery to find the lights go out. Then maybe the nearest charger station wont work because that could also be off line.

One of my biggest worries living in the Highlands would be the potential for diversions in the winter which can often add an extra 150 miles to your journey. Fatal accidents on the main Glen Coe road; rock falls around Loch Carron etc. All of which we've experienced and one reason we keep the tank reasonably full all the time. 500plus miles from a tank full vs probaly less than half that if fully charged.

There are many miles to go in some cases before finding somewhere to charge up.

I seem to recall some years back that BMW had a small EV which also included a small ICE which could be used to charge the battery. So if you're in the middle of nowhere and don't mind waiting you could sit back, enjoy the view or get very cold while it recharges.

 

[RogerL]

Its never that simple.

You could have just arrived home with a much depleted battery to find the lights go out. Then maybe the nearest charger station wont work because that could also be off line.

One of my biggest worries living in the Highlands would be the potential for diversions in the winter which can often add an extra 150 miles to your journey. Fatal accidents on the main Glen Coe road; rock falls around Loch Carron etc. All of which we've experienced and one reason we keep the tank reasonably full all the time. 500plus miles from a tank full vs probaly less than half that if fully charged.

There are many miles to go in some cases before finding somewhere to charge up.

I seem to recall some years back that BMW had a small EV which also included a small ICE which could be used to charge the battery. So if you're in the middle of nowhere and don't mind waiting you could sit back, enjoy the view or get very cold while it recharges.

The BMW with the "range extender" could be driven while it was recharging, as long as you didn't wait until the battery was completely flat.

 

[Hutch]

The BMW with the "range extender" could be driven while it was recharging, as long as you didn't wait until the battery was completely flat.

Is that what they call a Hybryid. Ev.

 

[otherclive]

The BMW with the "range extender" could be driven while it was recharging, as long as you didn't wait until the battery was completely flat.

Is this the one?

 

[JTQ]

Nor am I as convinced it's a non-issue; might well be in urban or near urban localities. If nothing else experience shows these, and rightly are where resources are poured to resolve big outages.

The comment was provoked as I said by the News, now 5 days in there are still 16,000 households out. they have managed to reconnect over 100,000 by this morning.
Now these are big numbers, and if met post the ICE era, that's going to put a big demand on the public infrastructure of EV charge point on top of the typical daily use, even if such things are available, and not already in use within say a 30 mile round trip.

The forethought involved in keeping the EV topped right up when there is any hint of bad weather coming, is far from comparable with knowing there are two jerry cans of diesel in the barn. In my case stood there for 50 years, and only refreshed probably every 10. Quite a lot less forethought.

And incidentally, I have never needed "freshly" drawn diesel, for it to work.

 

[JezzerB]

No the REX i3 had a 600 cc(ish) motorcycle engine that charged the battery-been dropped now sadly as it was great. The above has electric motors and the 1,5 turbo Mini 3 cylinder engine kicking out over 200bhp to give a total combined of over 350bhp-beautiful car also no longer being made.
In terms of the doomsday scenario in the Highlands a 150 mile re route would you would hope have rapid chargers on it-living here in Lincoln we get lots of silly power cuts-village-but thank fully no extremes as in Scotland and it isn't our only mode of transport as you know-would quite like it to be these days-am becoming quite an ev head though the motorbike manufacturers haven't caught up quite yet-but it's coming-the battery Triumph looks superb!

 

[JezzerB]

Nor am I as convinced it's a non-issue; might well be in urban or near urban localities. If nothing else experience shows these, and rightly are where resources are poured to resolve big outages.

The comment was provoked as I said by the News, now 5 days in there are still 16,000 households out. they have managed to reconnect over 100,000 by this morning.
Now these are big numbers, and if met post the ICE era, that's going to put a big demand on the public infrastructure of EV charge point on top of the typical daily use, even if such things are available, and not already in use within say a 30 mile round trip.

The forethought involved in keeping the EV topped right up when there is any hint of bad weather coming, is far from comparable with knowing there are two jerry cans of diesel in the barn. In my case stood there for 50 years, and only refreshed probably every 10. Quite a lot less forethought.

And incidentally, I have never needed "freshly" drawn diesel, for it to work.

I really don't agree-we find it far easier to top our EV up as soon as we'r ehome than thinking about petrol or diesel or having to store it-but you do get used to what you get used to I suppose! Petrol station from us is a minimum of 11 miles drive!

 

[otherclive]

No the REX i3 had a 600 cc(ish) motorcycle engine that charged the battery-been dropped now sadly as it was great. The above has electric motors and the 1,5 turbo Mini 3 cylinder engine kicking out over 200bhp to give a total combined of over 350bhp-beautiful car also no longer being made.
In terms of the doomsday scenario in the Highlands a 150 mile re route would you would hope have rapid chargers on it-living here in Lincoln we get lots of silly power cuts-village-but thank fully no extremes as in Scotland and it isn't our only mode of transport as you know-would quite like it to be these days-am becoming quite an ev head though the motorbike manufacturers haven't caught up quite yet-but it's coming-the battery Triumph looks superb!

I3 had very good acceleration as fast to 30 mph as the E90 M3! It’s small 7 litre tank only gave another 70-90 miles, but enough to reach a charging station or home. Providing of course power is still available. Otherwise you would have to “ rob” the petrol from one of your mower fuel containers.

 

[Hutch]

A question for the EV owners to answer, please.
When the EV is plugged in charging, is the car immobilsed automatically so that it cannot be driven away without unplugging it. ?

 

[JezzerB]

Yes -even if you get in our Mini via the key-if you leave it plugged in the car won't start and a warning comes up on the screen to tell you you are still plugged in-you can't get a huge extension lead and bomb round connected to the mains!! Yet!!!!

 

[Tobes]

Is that what they call a Hybryid. Ev.

Technically its a PHEV not a hybrid. They used to do a version of the i3 with the range extender. i3 REX. It was a small 2cyl petrol engine that just ran a generator. They stopped selling it a few years ago in favour of battery only. The engine was not powerful enough to run the electric motor at full power.
The Chevy Volt / GM / Vauxhall Ampera used the same mode - about 50 miles range in the battery, with a bigger engine that could generate electricity at a rate to run the electric motor a full power, but still no connection to the drive train.

 

[Tobes]

A question for the EV owners to answer, please.
When the EV is plugged in charging, is the car immobilsed automatically so that it cannot be driven away without unplugging it. ?

Car dependent.
For my Polestar - Yes; You can't start it at all with the cable plugged in. It just warns you all over the dash.
For my Volvo v60, it wont start unless you hold down the start button for 7 seconds to override the cable interlock. Again warning you before.

 

[Sam Vimes]

While the Zero Carbon initiatives are welcome in consideration of Global Warming I can't help thinking that this is all going to cost use more than we currently pay for our energy - be it Electricity or Fuel Oils and Gas.

If everyone switched over to EV tomorrow the government would lose a lot of tax revenue - about 58p per litre. This will have to come from somewhere else.

EVs are currently expensive to switch to if you take into account what you really need to be able to meet your current travel needs. I don't see these getting any cheaper in the near to mid future.

As the changeover deadline approaches I predict the cost of used conventional ICE vehicles will rise even more as people wont want to switch, perhaps because of range anxiety. Those not switching will pay more for their fuel as goverments try to recover lost tax revenue and stick to the rule of raising prices to discourage people.

Then there's the switch over to Heat Pumps. About 13% of housholds are already classified as being in fuel poverty. Electricity is an expensive energy source compared to gas and other fuels and while there are initiatives to improve housing efficiency and that there needs to be a balanced approach to the changeover as not to make fuel poverty worse, how well this will be acheived remains to be seen.

In the Scottish Governments Heat in Buildings Strategy of some 18 pages just one sentence includes the fact In some cases, zero emissions systems will cost more to run than the fossil fuel systems they replace.

Then there's the changeover cost in replacing a perfectly good system with another. While there may be subsidies usually these are hard to obtain and often don't cover the true cost. Look for details on the Green Homes Initiative to see how well that went - or didn't.

Then there's the possible loss in tax because Electricity Generators will not be paying as much tax on their fuel sources.

I can just see the cost of Electricity increasing by more than inflation and considering that we should be using more renewable sources in the future, for which the energy source is 'free', that's going to be hard to accept.

 

[Tobes]

While the Zero Carbon initiatives are welcome in consideration of Global Warming I can't help thinking that this is all going to cost use more than we currently pay for our energy - be it Electricity or Fuel Oils and Gas.

If everyone switched over to EV tomorrow the government would lose a lot of tax revenue - about 58p per litre. This will have to come from somewhere else.

Yes - one area of expected taxation is for Pay as you go - road charging. The more you use, the more you pay.
One other area of recovered revenue is to stop subsidising the fossil fuel industry.

EVs are currently expensive to switch to if you take into account what you really need to be able to meet your current travel needs. I don't see these getting any cheaper in the near to mid future.

That's a very debatable statement. It's true that EV's are currently more expensive than their ICE counterparts to buy new, but;
prices are coming down.
VED is (currently 0)
cost per mile is significantly lower for EV vs ICE
servicing costs are lower
residual values are so far higher than ICE (because of lower cost to service and fewer parts to fail).

What is importantly not available right now is a large used market. There are only a few models that have been around for a long time so availability of older (more affordable) cars is still limited.
For some cars, the value is significant in their market segment (I challenge anyone to find a saloon or hatch in the executive space that competes with the Polestar 2 on performance or spec at that price). That's not to say we dont need more choice at lower price points - we do.

As the changeover deadline approaches I predict the cost of used conventional ICE vehicles will rise even more as people wont want to switch, perhaps because of range anxiety. Those not switching will pay more for their fuel as goverments try to recover lost tax revenue and stick to the rule of raising prices to discourage people.

I completely agree with your second statement. Staying with ICE is going to get expensive. But I disagree with the 1st part. IMHO the issue with "range anxiety" which is pretty much non-existent for any EV driver, but is a thing for ICE drivers thinking of moving to EV - will go away in the next couple of years as 1) battery ranges continue to grow and 2) the public rapid infrastructure builds out. I can honestly say that after my 1st week of ownership (when I was staying on a non-hookup CL with my caravan for 4 days) I have not had any range anxiety. I just think about when and how I will charge before I hit the road.

Then there's the switch over to Heat Pumps. About 13% of housholds are already classified as being in fuel poverty. Electricity is an expensive energy source compared to gas and other fuels and while there are initiatives to improve housing efficiency and that there needs to be a balanced approach to the changeover as not to make fuel poverty worse, how well this will be acheived remains to be seen.

I totally agree that for those in fuel poverty, changing the main heating infrastructure in your home is non-viable. Which is exactly why there needs to be legislation NOW for all new houses to be built using ground source heating, with battery and solar as a default. When putting up a new build it costs very little to include that infrastructure as default and results in very low fuel bills for the properties.

In the Scottish Governments Heat in Buildings Strategy of some 18 pages just one sentence includes the fact In some cases, zero emissions systems will cost more to run than the fossil fuel systems they replace.

Of course this implies that In other cases, ezro emissions systems will cost LESS to run than the fossil fuel systems they replace.

Then there's the changeover cost in replacing a perfectly good system with another. While there may be subsidies usually these are hard to obtain and often don't cover the true cost. Look for details on the Green Homes Initiative to see how well that went - or didn't.

No denying it didn't work out well, but it should not be a barrier to a better organised system being put in place.

Then there's the possible loss in tax because Electricity Generators will not be paying as much tax on their fuel sources.

But they should be able to pay more in tax on profits - right?

I can just see the cost of Electricity increasing by more than inflation and considering that we should be using more renewable sources in the future, for which the energy source is 'free', that's going to be hard to accept.

Given that for renewables the source is free - why do we think that the costs will rise?

 

[otherclive]

Technically its a PHEV not a hybrid. They used to do a version of the i3 with the range extender. i3 REX. It was a small 2cyl petrol engine that just ran a generator. They stopped selling it a few years ago in favour of battery only. The engine was not powerful enough to run the electric motor at full power.
The Chevy Volt / GM / Vauxhall Ampera used the same mode - about 50 miles range in the battery, with a bigger engine that could generate electricity at a rate to run the electric motor a full power, but still no connection to the drive train.

There’s an early model Ampera near us and the guy has had it from new. When I spoke to him about it he positively glowed and told me it had been fault free, and so far ahead of its time the British public had difficulty getting their minds around the concept. It’s now the second car.

 

[Tobes]

There’s an early model Ampera near us and the guy has had it from new. When I spoke to him about it he positively glowed and told me it had been fault free, and so far ahead of its time the British public had difficulty getting their minds around the concept. It’s now the second car.

I have only read good things about the Ampera. They are pretty few and far between, but work very very well. They have now been (IMHO) superseded by BEV technology, but are still a very viable car for a regular short commute with occasional long range trip.

 

[Dustydog]

This year alone has seen some major progression on the type of batteries eg making them part of the vehicle infrastructure.
By 2030 this current discussion may be redundant but only if you have deep pockets. The used models in nine years time will not be for me. However it is clear 2030 models probably will be capable of towing heavy weight caravans and recharging to 80% in say 10minutes.
Successive Governments will always find a way to replace current fuel tax. Of that I am certain.
As long as I am still able to caravan I will do the same as Buckman and buy a nearly new ICE a year or so before the big ban. Like it or not the ICE will still be with us for a long time after 2030.

 

[ProfJohnL]

As any particular type of energy becomes less available its almost inevitable its price will increase, irrespective of inflation.

There is no doubt that ICE technology will continue to grace our roads, if for no other reason that its impossible for the car industry to produce enough zero emmision vehicles to meet demand. So it will be a progressive change probably taking several decades till the point when 95% of road vehicles are zero tail pipe emmision.

However as the change progresses, less dino juice will be needed so the the supply and demand and what will punter pay scenario will arise for fuel costs, and even without Gov't taxes we will see some price hikes on Petrol and Diesel. Then if the Gov't doesn't think the public changing to zero emission fast enough, they of course can jack up the tax on fuels to nudge the slow coaches.

It will be incredibly difficult for the Gov't to set additional taxes on electricity used for charging, as how can they differentiate between charging power and other household usage, so its far more likely taxation will shift to pay per use road tolls or new rates on road fund tax. We already have an ever widening network of ANPR camera around the country.

It seems that most of the doom sayer's are looking into the future and predicting disaster because they are only applying todays solutions to those problems. The fact is there is continual development taking place and technology is not going to stand still, it will mange better in the future than it does now. I can't guarantee al the problems will be solved by 2030, in fact I'm sure they won't be, but Ill bet that many of teh projected negatives will have been resolved, either by new developments, or changes in habits or expectations.

In 2030 we might well look back and wonder how we managed in 2021!

 

[otherclive]

As any particular type of energy becomes less available its almost inevitable its price will increase, irrespective of inflation.

There is no doubt that ICE technology will continue to grace our roads, if for no other reason that its impossible for the car industry to produce enough zero emmision vehicles to meet demand. So it will be a progressive change probably taking several decades till the point when 95% of road vehicles are zero tail pipe emmision.

However as the change progresses, less dino juice will be needed so the the supply and demand and what will punter pay scenario will arise for fuel costs, and even without Gov't taxes we will see some price hikes on Petrol and Diesel. Then if the Gov't doesn't think the public changing to zero emission fast enough, they of course can jack up the tax on fuels to nudge the slow coaches.

It will be incredibly difficult for the Gov't to set additional taxes on electricity used for charging, as how can they differentiate between charging power and other household usage, so its far more likely taxation will shift to pay per use road tolls or new rates on road fund tax. We already have an ever widening network of ANPR camera around the country.

It seems that most of the doom sayer's are looking into the future and predicting disaster because they are only applying todays solutions to those problems. The fact is there is continual development taking place and technology is not going to stand still, it will mange better in the future than it does now. I can't guarantee al the problems will be solved by 2030, in fact I'm sure they won't be, but Ill bet that many of teh projected negatives will have been resolved, either by new developments, or changes in habits or expectations.

In 2030 we might well look back and wonder how we managed in 2021!

It's not essential to see 2030 as "cliff edge" all that is happening is that 100% ICE will no longer be sold. What constitutes ICE isn't totally clear, but for the subsequent 5 years it will be possible to buy new hybrid ICE/Electric vehicles. The degree of hybridisation will vary between manufacturers and vehicle types. Some may have larger batteries whilst others may go for a minimal battery. Much will depend on the envisaged role of the vehicle.

 

[RogerL]

It's not essential to see 2030 as "cliff edge" all that is happening is that 100% ICE will no longer be sold. What constitutes ICE isn't totally clear, but for the subsequent 5 years it will be possible to buy new hybrid ICE/Electric vehicles. The degree of hybridisation will vary between manufacturers and vehicle types. Some may have larger batteries whilst others may go for a minimal battery. Much will depend on the envisaged role of the vehicle.

AFAIK the "concession" for hybrids after 2030 until 2035 will require cars to meet a government-set minimum range on battery alone - but that range hasn't been decided yet.