Will the electric car strategy the govement has kill Caravans

[JezzerB]

I did think the hype about environmentally or humanely poor sourcing of battery materials would very quickly result in some contradiction and or action from the motor manufacturers-they don't take bad press like that lightly and do pride themesevles in being eco friendly in their production.

 

[otherclive]

I did think the hype about environmentally or humanely poor sourcing of battery materials would very quickly result in some contradiction and or action from the motor manufacturers-they don't take bad press like that lightly and do pride themesevles in being eco friendly in their production.

Understandably the car makers did not sign up to COP26 but they are moving in the right direction and VW and MB as a result of dieselgate may not want any concerns re their position.
Interesting to note as well that the Asian marques of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai/Kia are actively pursuing hydrogen with fuel cells. Toyota recently stated that their power trains for Asia and Europe would ostensibly be the same but the latter may be battery powered, and the former hydrogen fuel cell powered. As this may reflect the different way energy is generated between Europe and Asia. But they did stress that it was a developing market with a number of technologies under development, and one influenced by countries political decisions too.

 

[Jcloughie]

Just watched episode 1 of the new 5th gear recharged. Lots of info on new developments and concept cars as well as major manufacturers future plans. The track comparison for Tesla v Polestar was good. Tesla won by a tiny amount, but it is 200kg lighter and £14,000 dearer.

It’s now on Quest.

John

 

[Buckman]

One day car and caravan ownership will be a thing of the past. If you wanted to go camping a car will come to your doorstep. collect you and then take you to the campsite you have selected when you will stay in a caravan you have selected. Alternatively the vehicle may collect you and then take you to the caravan you have selected and then take you to a campsite. As soon as you have finished off loading it will go back to its base.
If you need to go visiting another vehicle will come to the campsite and take you to the destination and then return to its base. Another comes to collect you to take you back to the campsite.
When you leave another suitable unit will collect you and the caravan and take you home and drop the caravan off at a storage location etc etc

 

[Tobes]

Just watched episode 1 of the new 5th gear recharged. Lots of info on new developments and concept cars as well as major manufacturers future plans. The track comparison for Tesla v Polestar was good. Tesla won by a tiny amount, but it is 200kg lighter and £14,000 dearer.

It’s now on Quest.

John

Have not seen this yet. Sounds like the Tesla Model 3 Performance vs the Polestar 2 LRDM PP? They won’t have had a the performance upgrade tuning SW download on the P2 (it’s only been available for about 2 weeks). I wonder how much difference that would make.

 

[Jcloughie]

Have not seen this yet. Sounds like the Tesla Model 3 Performance vs the Polestar 2 LRDM PP? They won’t have had a the performance upgrade tuning SW download on the P2 (it’s only been available for about 2 weeks). I wonder how much difference that would make.

You would enjoy the program. Can you get Quest on catch up?

Just found that YouTube have the Tesla/Polestar challenge.

View: https://youtu.be/2SjWjHQ0i7k


John

 

[Tobes]

You would enjoy the program. Can you get Quest on catch up?

Just found that YouTube have the Tesla/Polestar challenge.

View: https://youtu.be/2SjWjHQ0i7k


John

Thanks for that - just watched it. Very interesting. Adding the £1K performance SW upgrade would bring the P2 up to the same power as the TM3 and add an extra 20NM torque. Would love to see that race re-run

 

[Dustydog]

I have to reserect this topic. Hope that’s ok?
Two things.
1. Uk Scientists and car manufacturers have said we are missing a trick with Hydrogen Fuel Cell development. I read the “Greens” are all for EVs and are ignoring the massive eco cost effectiveness of H.
2. The World stock markets this week have seen a massive decline in value of Green energy Companies. Some reportedly down by 45%. It is inferred we are ignoring fossil fuels too early and “something “will break.
Long term, maybe 30 years things will be different? Who knows? I don’t!

 

[Tobes]

I have to reserect this topic. Hope that’s ok?
Two things.
1. Uk Scientists and car manufacturers have said we are missing a trick with Hydrogen Fuel Cell development. I read the “Greens” are all for EVs and are ignoring the massive eco cost effectiveness of H.
2. The World stock markets this week have seen a massive decline in value of Green energy Companies. Some reportedly down by 45%. It is inferred we are ignoring fossil fuels too early and “something “will break.
Long term, maybe 30 years things will be different? Who knows? I don’t!

I never considered it "dead" Just sleeping. ;-)

On 1) I believe hydrogen absolutely has a place to play in our future energy storage, and I understand the desire of current ICE drivers to have a refuelling model that looks familiar to ICE. I have seen zero evidence of H being either eco or cost effective for private cars. Nor have I seen any evidence of UK scientists pushing HFC over BEV vehicles. Are there any UK car manufacturers?

The key is how hydrogen is produced. Today there are two models.
1) Steam reformation of natural gas (Grey hydrogen). It produces CO2 and needs additional energy to crack the hydrogen. This is the most common model for hydrogen production for industrial processes. If you add carbon capture and storage, you can in theory make so called "blue" hydrogen. So far this does not exist in any commercial or scaled solution, and indeed CCS is at best a marketing term for making any kind of fossil fuel "green".
2) Electrolysis of water. This is the production of "green" hydrogen, resulting in Oxygen and Hydrogen. But it needs electricity. Lots of it, and the hydrogen produced only accounts for about 2/3rds of the energy you put in. Then the hydrogen needs to cooled, compressed and stored (takes energy), transported (takes energy) put into a car (takes energy) converted to electricity in a fuel cell, stored in a battery and used by the car. From wind to wheel, HFC cars are about 30% efficient. An BEV car is about 80% efficient. I.e. you need around 2.5 times more source energy to drive the same distance in a HFC car as in a BEV car.

On 2) This is the 1st I have seen on this. The whole market is down this week. Is there some specific green energy company that is being pointed at?

 

[Dustydog]

I never considered it "dead" Just sleeping. ;-)

On 1) I believe hydrogen absolutely has a place to play in our future energy storage, and I understand the desire of current ICE drivers to have a refuelling model that looks familiar to ICE. I have seen zero evidence of H being either eco or cost effective for private cars. Nor have I seen any evidence of UK scientists pushing HFC over BEV vehicles. Are there any UK car manufacturers?

The key is how hydrogen is produced. Today there are two models.
1) Steam reformation of natural gas (Grey hydrogen). It produces CO2 and needs additional energy to crack the hydrogen. This is the most common model for hydrogen production for industrial processes. If you add carbon capture and storage, you can in theory make so called "blue" hydrogen. So far this does not exist in any commercial or scaled solution, and indeed CCS is at best a marketing term for making any kind of fossil fuel "green".
2) Electrolysis of water. This is the production of "green" hydrogen, resulting in Oxygen and Hydrogen. But it needs electricity. Lots of it, and the hydrogen produced only accounts for about 2/3rds of the energy you put in. Then the hydrogen needs to cooled, compressed and stored (takes energy), transported (takes energy) put into a car (takes energy) converted to electricity in a fuel cell, stored in a battery and used by the car. From wind to wheel, HFC cars are about 30% efficient. An BEV car is about 80% efficient. I.e. you need around 2.5 times more source energy to drive the same distance in a HFC car as in a BEV car.

On 2) This is the 1st I have seen on this. The whole market is down this week. Is there some specific green energy company that is being pointed at?

Yes to 2 British Volt. One of the two CEOs walked out very recently. Maybe , ironically , before their time.
There is certainly a lot of mileage(sic) in HFC from whatI read.

 

[Tobes]

Yes to 2 British Volt. One of the two CEOs walked out very recently. Maybe , ironically , before their time.
There is certainly a lot of mileage(sic) in HFC from whatI read.

Ah - will have a look at British Volt. As I understand it they are a nascent battery manufacturer, not a green energy provider? They are also not a publicly listed company. I.e. They don't have a share price...

I think HFCs will be a very important part of our future. For Aero industry, long distance heavy haulage, Shipping, Plant machines and other places that simply cant get a mains electric hookup, Hydrogen seems to make some sense and HFC is the cleanest and most efficient way of using it.

Hydrogen its self though It is essentially a convenience form factor for energy transport, but as with most convenient things, comes at a cost. Interestingly, one of those costs is the lack of convenience of being able to fuel a HFC car from home, the very issue that most ICE drivers associate with Hydrogen's value. Not having to go to somewhere specific to charge a BEV (if you can charge at home) is massively liberating. Of course - if you cant - then the attraction of the potential for rapid refuelling of a HFC EV via hydrogen seems ideal. I am just not sure the cost of Hydrogen is well understood yet. Today 60 miles of range in a Mirai HFC car, costs about £15. In a diesel its about £7. In Petrol, about £8. In electric it's about £1.35.
That's pretty expensive convenience...

 

[otherclive]

Ah - will have a look at British Volt. As I understand it they are a nascent battery manufacturer, not a green energy provider? They are also not a publicly listed company. I.e. They don't have a share price...

I think HFCs will be a very important part of our future. For Aero industry, long distance heavy haulage, Shipping, Plant machines and other places that simply cant get a mains electric hookup, Hydrogen seems to make some sense and HFC is the cleanest and most efficient way of using it.

Hydrogen its self though It is essentially a convenience form factor for energy transport, but as with most convenient things, comes at a cost. Interestingly, one of those costs is the lack of convenience of being able to fuel a HFC car from home, the very issue that most ICE drivers associate with Hydrogen's value. Not having to go to somewhere specific to charge a BEV (if you can charge at home) is massively liberating. Of course - if you cant - then the attraction of the potential for rapid refuelling of a HFC EV via hydrogen seems ideal. I am just not sure the cost of Hydrogen is well understood yet. Today 60 miles of range in a Mirai HFC car, costs about £15. In a diesel its about £7. In Petrol, about £8. In electric it's about £1.35.
That's pretty expensive convenience...

Haven’t British Volt just been lined up for £100 M development support for the new gigafactory near Blyth. It’s output is destined to go to Nissan which will increase the value of British content in the Sunderland produced cars, hence they will not attract charges on entering the EU. Mind you the bulk of the funding and technology for British Volt was reported to come from China.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...lectric-car-battery-uk-gigafactory-blyth-jobs

 

[Dustydog]

It all depends which papers you read for us mere mortals. One of their main men stepped down in December 2020. Allegedly some fraud thing🤔. Nissan , allegedly, aren’t interested as they are in discussions to build their own battery manufacturing plant. A strange world we live in😉😉

 

[Buckman]

I never considered it "dead" Just sleeping. ;-)

On 1) I believe hydrogen absolutely has a place to play in our future energy storage, and I understand the desire of current ICE drivers to have a refuelling model that looks familiar to ICE. I have seen zero evidence of H being either eco or cost effective for private cars. Nor have I seen any evidence of UK scientists pushing HFC over BEV vehicles. Are there any UK car manufacturers?

The the moment an EV is not cost effective for the majority of motorist anyway as they are unaffordable. At the moment it is more cost effective to convert an ICE engine to use gas than to purchase an EV.
At some point in the future hydrogen may become cost effective for private cars, but by the same token at that point EVs may become more cost effective. However between the two technologies I would think that hydrogen is more environmentally friendly. We would prefer a hydrogen powered vehicle as opposed to an EV.

 

[Tobes]

The the moment an EV is not cost effective for the majority of motorist anyway as they are unaffordable.

I believe that has more to do with the price of new cars as opposed to the used market. New EV prices are falling as competition increases, and the 2nd hand market will be fuelled by the influx of used company EVs . I think (hope) it’s a matter of time.

At the moment it is more cost effective to convert an ICE engine to use gas than to purchase an EV.

Which of course does not help reduce either CO2 or pollution.

At some point in the future hydrogen may become cost effective for private cars, but by the same token at that point EVs may become more cost effective. However between the two technologies I would think that hydrogen is more environmentally friendly. We would prefer a hydrogen powered vehicle as opposed to an EV.

I don’t understand why hydrogen is perceived to be more environmentally friendly? It needs more electricity to fuel, still uses a battery and needs additional rare materials that must be mined to produce the HFC.
I would love to see a study on the production costs of an HEV vs a BEV and ICE along the lines of the study by Volvo / Polestar.

 

[Buckman]

I believe that has more to do with the price of new cars as opposed to the used market. New EV prices are falling as competition increases, and the 2nd hand market will be fuelled by the influx of used company EVs . I think (hope) it’s a matter of time.

Which of course does not help reduce either CO2 or pollution.

I don’t understand why hydrogen is perceived to be more environmentally friendly? It needs more electricity to fuel, still uses a battery and needs additional rare materials that must be mined to produce the HFC.
I would love to see a study on the production costs of an HEV vs a BEV and ICE along the lines of the study by Volvo / Polestar.

Gas eventually may probably be more environmentally to extract from the atmosphere than mining for metals for batteries and it would not require shipping halfway around the world?
I have no idea what a HEV or BEV is? Could you please explain?

 

[Tobes]

Gas eventually may probably be more environmentally to extract from the atmosphere than mining for metals for batteries and it would not require shipping halfway around the world?

By Gas, I assume you mean hydrogen. The atmosphere only contains hydrogen in trace levels. It’s so light, free hydrogen simply drifts off into space. The only way to obtain it in volume is from some molecule that it is already stored in, like water or natural gas, which needs energy input.

I have no idea what a HEV or BEV is? Could you please explain?

HEV = Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle
BEV = Battery electric vehicle.

 

[Buckman]

By Gas, I assume you mean hydrogen. The atmosphere only contains hydrogen in trace levels. It’s so light, free hydrogen simply drifts off into space. The only way to obtain it in volume is from some molecule that it is already stored in, like water or natural gas, which needs energy input.

HEV = Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle
BEV = Battery electric vehicle.

Yes I was referring to hydrogen as Toyota are producing a hydrogen fueled vehicle from manufacture. Hydrogen can be stored in ammonia for transporting long distance. See my thread in "Chit chat" sub forum regarding the Green upheaval and click on the link as it makes interesting reading.
HEV seems a bit of an oxymoron? As for BEV surely for a vehicle to be an EV it requires batteries?

 

[otherclive]

Yes I was referring to hydrogen as Toyota are producing a hydrogen fueled vehicle from manufacture. Hydrogen can be stored in ammonia for transporting long distance. See my thread in "Chit chat" sub forum regarding the Green upheaval and click on the link as it makes interesting reading.
HEV seems a bit of an oxymoron? As for BEV surely for a vehicle to be an EV it requires batteries?

Not strictly true, as a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle doesn’t require batteries. Hence the descriptions of BEV or HEV when the two options are being discussed. Bit like PHEV is used too.
PS edit. Aren’t the Toyota hydrogen cars fuel cell powered ? The Mirai certainly is.

 

[RogerL]

Yes I was referring to hydrogen as Toyota are producing a hydrogen fueled vehicle from manufacture. Hydrogen can be stored in ammonia for transporting long distance. See my thread in "Chit chat" sub forum regarding the Green upheaval and click on the link as it makes interesting reading.
HEV seems a bit of an oxymoron? As for BEV surely for a vehicle to be an EV it requires batteries?

EV applies to any electrified vehicle, ie includes hybrids - BEV specifies that it's fully driven by the battery.

 

[JezzerB]

I absolutely refuse to believe hydrogen is more environmentally friendly than electric. Yes electrics need rare metals but any car requires a lot of resources. Add in the energy required to make the gas with losses every way and the energy to ship it instead of sending it down wires and although gas may appear on the face of it more practical it is at the mo hugely wasteful and not yet practical. It might happen but not at the mo.

 

[Tobes]

Yes I was referring to hydrogen as Toyota are producing a hydrogen fueled vehicle from manufacture. Hydrogen can be stored in ammonia for transporting long distance. See my thread in "Chit chat" sub forum regarding the Green upheaval and click on the link as it makes interesting reading.
HEV seems a bit of an oxymoron? As for BEV surely for a vehicle to be an EV it requires batteries?

Hydrogen can be stored as ammonia for long distance, but it can’t be extracted from the atmosphere.

Not strictly true, as a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle doesn’t require batteries. Hence the descriptions of BEV or HEV when the two options are being discussed. Bit like PHEV is used too.
PS edit. Aren’t the Toyota hydrogen cars fuel cell powered ? The Mirai certainly is.

The Toyota Mirai is indeed an HEV. It uses a fuel cell to generate electricity which charges a battery which powers the car.

Hydrogen Internal combustion engines are also possible, and Mazda, Ford and others have been dabbling with them for years. The problem is they are lower power than the same engine run on petrol, have much much lower range for the same size fuel tank as petrol and still emitted particulate emissions (predominantly NOx).

As otherclive points out, there are several different models for leveraging electricity in a vehicle. Regular hybrid (or self-charging hybrid as Toyota would have us call it)uses a battery, but is ONLY fuelled by fossil fuel. PHEV Plug-in Hybrid EV has a battery that can be charged by plugging it into the mains. MHEV is a mild hybrid, typically a 48volt system which is used for start stop only, and just might give a small boost to the engine at very low speed. BEV are only charged with electricity and HEV are only fuelled by hydrogen.

The thing with hydrogen fuel cells, is they are slow to react to changes in output demand. Thy can’t switch from zero to 100%power (or back) in the way that an ICE or battery can. That means it’s very hard to use them coupled directly to a motor. You need a battery to absorb the difference in demand vs supply.

 

[Jcloughie]

Hydrogen Internal combustion engines are also possible, and Mazda, Ford and others have been dabbling with them for years. The problem is they are lower power than the same engine run on petrol, have much much lower range for the same size fuel tank as petrol and still emitted particulate emissions (predominantly NOx).

At first I thought that you were wrong. We are constantly told that Hydrogen is pollution free. Indeed a Google still shows this until you dig a little deeper. Turns out you are correct!!

I was not able to find any figures to compare NOx between Petrol and Hydrogen.

Lots of misinformation out there.



John

 

[Tobes]

At first I thought that you were wrong. We are constantly told that Hydrogen is pollution free. Indeed a Google still shows this until you dig a little deeper. Turns out you are correct!!

I was not able to find any figures to compare NOx between Petrol and Hydrogen.

Lots of misinformation out there.



John

Indeed - lots and lots of misinformation.

As you will have discovered, the NOx in exhaust fumes doesn't come from the fuel at all, it's a byproduct of combustion using air. The hotter the burn, the more NOx is released. Hydrogen burns very fast and very hot, and can lead to much higher NOx emission than petrol or diesel engines, but is very dependant on the lean-ness of the mix and how loaded the engine is.

Either way, if you have hydrogen as a fuel source available, and have a choice between and fuel cell and a combustion engine, you would be mad to pick combustion. Fuel cells (while not 100% efficient) are far far more efficient than a combustion engine, and have no particulate emissions at all.

In a choice between combustion and fuel cell, for efficiency and emissions - Fuel cells win.
But if you want over all efficiency from wind to wheel, a battery electric vehicle will outperform a fuel cell by a long way too.

Of course - pure efficiency is not the only game in town. Convenience also plays a role, As of today, lots of people are looking at the fuelling model of hydrogen ("just" pump it into a tank) vs charging a battery (spend 10s of minutes at a rapid charger) as a much simpler and more recognisable way of fuelling a car. But either don't realise or forget that H2 is twice as expensive as diesel, and you can only buy it in about 6 places in the whole country. Thats kind of inconvenient too...

 

[Buckman]

Of course - pure efficiency is not the only game in town. Convenience also plays a role, As of today, lots of people are looking at the fuelling model of hydrogen ("just" pump it into a tank) vs charging a battery (spend 10s of minutes at a rapid charger) as a much simpler and more recognisable way of fuelling a car. But either don't realise or forget that H2 is twice as expensive as diesel, and you can only buy it in about 6 places in the whole country. Thats kind of inconvenient too...

By the same token when EVs first came out charging points were very limited.