Will the electric car strategy the govement has kill Caravans

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Jul 23, 2021
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By the same token when EVs first came out charging points were very limited.
Yes and no. Yes in that there were few dedicated charging points. No in that you could (and still can) charge an EV anywhere you can get access to a 3 pin socket with minimum of a 1.3kW (6-7Amp) draw. There are VERY few places in the country where that is impossible. There are many EV drivers today who simply never public charge. Unless you live within a sensible distance of an H2 filling location today, you simply can't have a hydrogen car.
When I first got my PHEV, there was a hydrogen point in Coventry. A 60 mile round trip for me. It's closed. Now the closest is Beaconsfield. (120 mile round trip). Its broken. That means the closest working point is in Heathrow. A 150 mile round trip. And people think electric car charging is hard?
 
Jul 18, 2017
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Yes and no. Yes in that there were few dedicated charging points. No in that you could (and still can) charge an EV anywhere you can get access to a 3 pin socket with minimum of a 1.3kW (6-7Amp) draw. There are VERY few places in the country where that is impossible. There are many EV drivers today who simply never public charge. Unless you live within a sensible distance of an H2 filling location today, you simply can't have a hydrogen car.
When I first got my PHEV, there was a hydrogen point in Coventry. A 60 mile round trip for me. It's closed. Now the closest is Beaconsfield. (120 mile round trip). Its broken. That means the closest working point is in Heathrow. A 150 mile round trip. And people think electric car charging is hard?
However many service stations had places to refill cars with LPG and within reasonable distance so I guess quite possible with a hydrogen fueled vehicle to have a fil up point nearby?
 
Jun 16, 2020
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My understanding of Hydrogen power is that the application for vehicular use has proven and accepted. Distribution is difficult but feasible. But, even though is has the potential to use spare solar and wind power. Even so. The production in bulk seems to be the sticking point.

The hope that it will be the fuel of the future has been around since “Tomorows World“ days. But it remains elusive.


Just info I have gleaned to date. (Probably incorrect).

John
 
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Jul 23, 2021
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However many service stations had places to refill cars with LPG and within reasonable distance so I guess quite possible with a hydrogen fueled vehicle to have a fil up point nearby?
Kind of. LPG was always a secondary fuel to petrol. The cars can run on either, so iff your LPG location is broken, or empty, you can revert to petrol as a backup. You cant run an HFC car on petrol. It's Hydrogen or nothing. The Mirai has been around since 2014. The Hyundai ix35 FEV and latterly Nexo, have been around since 2013.

Converting an LPG delivery location to Hydrogen is not as simple as changing the gas in the tank and the nozzle on the pump. In needs an entirely new infrastructure. It's possible - yes. Is it practical and economic? Not yet.
 
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My understanding of Hydrogen power is that the application for vehicular use has proven and accepted. Distribution is difficult but feasible. But, even though is has the potential to use spare solar and wind power. Even so. The production in bulk seems to be the sticking point.

The hope that it will be the fuel of the future has been around since “Tomorows World“ days. But it remains elusive.


Just info I have gleaned to date. (Probably incorrect).

John
I think it depends how you define "accepted". Is it possible? absolutely - for both HEV and Hydrogen combustion. Is it wide spread. No.

The idea has been postulated for a long time that excess wind and solar could be used to generate hydrogen as an energy storage medium. And I hope that takes off. It seems useful to me.

But I am not sure that shipping the resultant hydrogen elsewhere makes sense, or if using it in large scale HFC devices, or perhaps combined cycle turbines for local CO2 free electricity generation to cover peak points makes more sense. Or even, using agile pricing models to encourage the use of excess energy as it is generated by industry, commercial and domestic users, to remove the need for use at peak periods. As a domestic user today, we have been used to economy pricing 7 for years. And we can also access rates that track the wholesale price for both import and export, buying when cheap and selling back to the grid when expensive.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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The future of personal transport is not certain. By restrictive legislation, or lack of convenience or cost, we may all be forced to reconsider our own personal transport methods in the future. There is no guarantee we will have personal cars to ourselves.

Depending on the local arrangements, vehicles may possibly run on batteries, Hydrogen or even the continuing use of petrol, diesel and LPG or natural gas, and of course the mix of fuels and limitations may well vary from country to country.

Here in the UK the government has decided to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel engined cars in the not too distant future, and the industries response both here and in most of Europe is to move to Battery Electric Vehicles. The effect today in the UK is that of the majority of new car sales are BEV, with a very small minority opting for Hydrogen either through a fuel cell or as a direct into a revised ICE engine.

There principal reason why BEV has forged so far ahead is because the infrastructure to run BEV's is comparatively easy and certainly cheaper to provide than Hydrogen for vehicles. This does not mean hydrogen is dead in the water, but it does reflect on another present day aspect of the production, storage and transportation of H2 proving to be vastly more difficult and disproportionately expensive, and that has resulted in a dearth of hydrogen filling stations. That has to be viewed against to plethora of ways you can recharge a BEV - and even that is continuing to improve.

I have seen ( but I can't recall exactly where) a scientific energy comparison between using HEV and BEV. If a BEV was fed 100kWh of energy you would get about 80kWh at the car wheels thus 80% But if that same 100kWh was used to produce H2, and then used in an HEV you would only get about 50% at the wheels. And that ignores the energy used to transport, store and deliver it to a car.

So without even turning a wheel, H2 is costing quite a lot more. In The UK, EU, USA and other places BEV's have taken a storming lead, which will continue to suppress other alternative fuel systems.

Until we have a method of collecting or extracting H2 that is at least three to four times more cost effective than the best present day method, H2 will not be a completely viable alternative to BEV's - and don't forget that there is a massive world wide impetus to continue to improve batteries, which will drive down their price, and improve their effectiveness , which is continually raising the bar for H2 to reach.

As I said at the top of this comment, H2 isn't going to die, but it may only find favour in certain more specific use cases, possibly fleet operators who could justify the installation costs of the H2 infrastructure.
 
Jan 31, 2018
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Totally agree Prof . The point I was making without % is the samex as you are making. Ive read the same article about comparitive efficiencies but couldn't remember the figures or sources. Makes sense though if you think about production. Electricity is needed to make hydrogen. There has to be losses.
 
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Nov 6, 2005
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A car with a real 300 mile range should be good for 150 in my experience:)
But a car with a 300 mile WLTP range won't have a real world range of 300 - so the rule of thumb that 300 miles WLTP will give about 100 miles real world towing seems to be good.

Everyone knows that WLTP gives best case optimistic figures whether IC or EV but too many people talk about that figure as if it's average.
 
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Agreed. My car has WLTP of about 290. Real world solo I get more like 210 (but don’t drive for frugality). When towing I can get 120 to 130.
The EV6 has a real world range of 300. I would expect at least 150 towing from it if not 160 or 170. Time will tell.
 
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I suppose it depends on weight of tow too . And like any car, temperature, length of journey and speed. Our Mini does 140-50 mile's summer driving like a saint and not exceeding lorry speeds. Winter and me driving it like it should be driven I can get this down to 90 ! I just can't help but enjoy the car.
 
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Agreed, but the wind resistance of the caravan will also affect this. It might bring back more pop tops and folders.
In my experience, drag (by wind resistance or wet roads) is far more impactful than weight when EV towing.
For flat towing, momentum built up in the moving mass of the outfit can be majority recovered when breaking through regeneration. I.e. the weight makes little difference. For towing uphill (where your start is lower than your end) that potential energy will be lost.
But they are far lower losses than that due to drag. Just backing off the throttle from 60 to 56 makes a big difference, and using the slipstream effect of following another large vehicle also helps.
 
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I suppose it depends on weight of tow too . And like any car, temperature, length of journey and speed. Our Mini does 140-50 mile's summer driving like a saint and not exceeding lorry speeds. Winter and me driving it like it should be driven I can get this down to 90 ! I just can't help but enjoy the car.
Our petrols are similar, enjoy it and pay the price. Took the Subaru out today first time in 10 days. Could hardly get it above 2000 rpm and then only for a short time, remainder between 1200-1500 rpm. So no turbocharger cleaning on that trip. Must head to Wales next week. 😁
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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But they are far lower losses than that due to drag. Just backing off the throttle from 60 to 56 makes a big difference, and using the slipstream effect of following another large vehicle also helps.
Don't you have to travel close to the rear of a large vehicle to feel the benefits of using their slipstream? If so, this could be a very dangerous practice as vehicle in front could brake hard and driver will not see you at rear of his large vehicle.
I have never tried this practice so no idea although I have had cars so close to the rear of the caravan that they cannot be seen in any extended mirror.
 
Jul 23, 2021
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You really don't. In F1, the drivers get the benefit of a tow from 100s of meters away. Whilst for them the speeds are much higher, the cars are far more areo to start with. Big trucks make a huge disturbance in the air which causes turbulence for a long way. At 56mph, a 2 second gap is about 50 meters. Plenty close enough to get a benefit. The trick is to have the patience to sit behind a lorry. When towing with my old XC90, I would deliberately set my cruise at 61mph (about 59 to 60 real world) just so I could keep going past trucks and feel like I was "making progress". It was a total illusion, and just mean that I was constantly breaking clean air.
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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You really don't. In F1, the drivers get the benefit of a tow from 100s of meters away. Whilst for them the speeds are much higher, the cars are far more areo to start with. Big trucks make a huge disturbance in the air which causes turbulence for a long way. At 56mph, a 2 second gap is about 50 meters. Plenty close enough to get a benefit. The trick is to have the patience to sit behind a lorry. When towing with my old XC90, I would deliberately set my cruise at 61mph (about 59 to 60 real world) just so I could keep going past trucks and feel like I was "making progress". It was a total illusion, and just mean that I was constantly breaking clean air.

I must admit I get a bit nervous when I cannot see the road ahead even if I am only behind a big white van. I am always looking looking several cars ahead as an indication of brake lights coming on gives you warning of an issue and you can start slowing down and be prepared.
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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Me too. 2 seconds behind is far enough that I can see round what is in front to be sure I am not driving into danger.

When i was in the police I can remember getting a call about a mini being dragged behind an HGV. No mobile phones and towns about 60 miles apart.
The Mini had tried to overtake the artic, saw a car approaching and pulled in too sharp and got jammed under the rear trailer. The driver could not see the car as it was out of the vision in his mirrors.
It was dragged many miles before a motorist coming up to overtake came across the scenario I was able to stop the HGV. The occupants of the Mini were all okay, but very shaken up.
 
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When i was in the police I can remember getting a call about a mini being dragged behind an HGV. No mobile phones and towns about 60 miles apart.
The Mini had tried to overtake the artic, saw a car approaching and pulled in too sharp and got jammed under the rear trailer. The driver could not see the car as it was out of the vision in his mirrors.
It was dragged many miles before a motorist coming up to overtake came across the scenario I was able to stop the HGV. The occupants of the Mini were all okay, but very shaken up.
Yeah - I tend not to overtake on single lane roads when I am towing, even with 10x more horse power and torque than a mini!
 
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Yeah - I tend not to overtake on single lane roads when I am towing, even with 10x more horse power and torque than a mini!
At the time there we no dual roads anywhere in the country as we had only just switched from strip roads to proper tarred roads. Strip roads had two strip of tar, one for left and one for right wheel.
Google "Rhodesia strip roads" to see pictures.
 
May 7, 2012
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I do agree, I am reluctant to overtake on single track roads and have only done so on long straight stretches with something very slow like a tractor in front.
 
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