Will the electric car strategy the govement has kill Caravans

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Jun 16, 2020
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I imagine that if EV’s become viable for towing. We will have to rethink how we plan trips and make shorter journeys with overnight charging stops. And to service this, sites will need their power supplies and outlets updated in order to cope. CL‘s may not then be an option.

John
 
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As I said some sites are already underway with planning for this-and you wouldn't necessarily need to shorten your journey that much-just allow 40mins rapid charge and you're , in most EVs these days, good for another 80plus percent-problem is at the mo is where chargers are-many would require you to unhitch. However vans and lorries are mooted -as EVs and that might help in terms of charging.
The Caravan and motorhome club site at Cayton has chargers apparently and our local Caravan and Camping club have got quotes already-it's underway but slow but at the mo not many tow with an ev so there isn't demand-but it'll come and some will tow an ev behind a motorhome too!

We told our local site there was nothing to stop an EV user plugging in their granny (ie mains ) charger at the caravan-it operates on 13 amp-and leaving it overnight-when the van isn't using electricity-the thought of the cost of that suddenly polarised his thoughts!!

Your are totallyright JCloughie in that the network is hit and miss -not used them much as we mostly charge at home-but the free podpoints at Tesco are very good-lidl are on the ball -with rapid chargers that aren't too pricey-but BP and ecotricity-major motorway players are quite poor in terms of feedback. Ionicity(McDonalds)-seem very reliable so far!
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Rang towing a caravan can cut a electric car range by 75% is it feasible to tow a caravan under these conditions.
Adding any additional weight to a vehicle (ICE or EV) reduces the available range from a fuel tank or battery - That is basic physics.

Is it feasible to tow a caravan? Yes - but wit a diminished range. Will it be a 75% reduction of range? that depends on the car and the caravan, the speed and the terrane over which its towed.

Thier is no new battery technology on the horizon (20 years) all tesla did was to increase the physical size of its batteries making them 2-3 % more power capacity per Kg than the old battery's..

I'm sorry but there are several new battery technologies being pursued not only to increase power density, but also to remove reliance on rare or contentious materials, and to increase battery longevity (number of discharge/ recharge cycles).

Your original question did not include a reference to cost, but the development stage of almost every single new development is high, Look at the cost of ICE vehicles when they were first introduced, The cost of sending men into space and beyond, but as time passes manufacturing costs invariably come down, and the same will be true for battery technologies. From yesterday - we now have space tourists (Jeff Bezos )

An IC engine becomes more effichant under full load, whereas electrics become less effichant under full load.

Charging points in caravan sites, they are limited, in what they can fit.
That is very interesting thought. Please can you explain how you came to the conclusion? The very very best ICE engines are almost reaching 50% thermal efficiencies, but most consumer products can still barely reach 30% at best. EV's whole life efficencies outstip whole ICE vehicles, and EV;s will improve further as we develop the technologies.

Running ICE engines are hopelessly inefficient and pollution generators when the vehicle isn't moving, which in cities is a lot of the time.

Thier are many myths beimg told about how good electric cars are, they say 100% effichant 100% green, neither are true.

To charge an electric car from the mains around 14% is lost as heat, where does the electricity come from? Mainly gas nuclear and imported, only about 10% from renewable.. (the people advocating electric cars say nuclear is renewable.)
The imported electricity is from France will dry up when French go all electric. Some say charge from roof PV cells on house, on average during 1 year is 2kwh per day, so if you used all of it to charge an electric car you could only charge it up 12x a year!

Personal looking at electric runabout car for local and diesel for longer journeys and towing....

Think of this to end with.
A motorway service has say 20 pumps, average person refills in 5 minutes then move on..

Now let's convert them to all electric.

Say an electric car takes 50 mins to charge to 80%.

As it takes 10x longer to charge an electric car as it does to refuel a petrol car, and you will have to do it 2x as often as petrol you will need 400 electric charging stations to replace the 20 petrol pumps.

At 250Kw each that's 100Mw of electricity if all used at same time.

As far as I know there is no rational person who believes EV's are 100% efficient, or100% green. There is an environmental cost to every thing we do - including breathing, so to make such claims is entirely erroneous. And before accusing EV's of not being green, just think of how much green damage has been caused by the use of ICE vehicles over the last 100 years or so.

What has been said and is technically true, EV's have no tail pipe emissions, but there c ould be emissions at the power generation stages depending on what processes are used.

There are several sources of electric power, Those with zero generation emissions are wind, solar, wave, tidal, and nuclear. Both gas and coal produce generation emissions, but gas is considerably cleaner than coal. Different countries have different mixtures of these sources so the amount of emissions per kWh varies country to country. Here in the UK over the last 5 years, we have seen renewables ( zero emission) rise 20% to 40% of our average power production, and on occasions has touched 50%. The remaining load has been gas, nuclear and a continuing downward trend in coal generation.

Or reliance on importing electric power at the moment is being diminished as the UK installs more renewables, and nuclear , but also storage facilities that can be charged at low demand periods and feed back into the grid when demand is high. Not only are there dedicated storage facilities like this being developed, but many of the new EV cars will also allow for car to grid support. This could dramatically reduce our peak generation demands.

Solar PV is still quite force to be reckoned with. I do not know where you got your 2kWh per day figure from but that is not necessarily a typical figure. It is also wrong to assume that 2kWhs is insignificant, You can do quite a lot with that amount of energy used wisely. It is of course dependant on the size of the PV array and the hours of day light to generate power. You do not need bright sunlight.

Your suggestion that motorway services will not be able to cope - based on the present deployment of charging facilities, and the numbers of EV's that do take nearly an hour to go from 10 to 80% does look damming at the moment, however you have made four poor assumptions:-
  • Firstly newer EV's are can charge at higher rates thus reducing charging times.
  • Secondly Just becasue a can is claimed to be able to accept 250kW does not mean the car can accept that rate consistently between 10 and 80%. Most charging profiles tail off the charging rate as the battery fills up.
  • Thirdly, harping back to point I made earlier about local storage of power, most large car charging sites, will have their own on site storage which will charge up during low demand periods, and not place an instantaneous high demand on the grid.
  • Fourthly not everyone will need to stop at the services, becasue with home charging they will be starting with a full charge.
The power delivery systems are being steadily improved, and we will have a much wider distribution of charge points than we presently do, which should counter the range anxiety that is presently rife in the industry.
 
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As I said some sites are already underway with planning for this-and you wouldn't necessarily need to shorten your journey that much-just allow 40mins rapid charge and you're , in most EVs these days, good for another 80plus percent-problem is at the mo is where chargers are-many would require you to unhitch. However vans and lorries are mooted -as EVs and that might help in terms of charging.
The Caravan and motorhome club site at Cayton has chargers apparently and our local Caravan and Camping club have got quotes already-it's underway but slow but at the mo not many tow with an ev so there isn't demand-but it'll come and some will tow an ev behind a motorhome too!

We told our local site there was nothing to stop an EV user plugging in their granny (ie mains ) charger at the caravan-it operates on 13 amp-and leaving it overnight-when the van isn't using electricity-the thought of the cost of that suddenly polarised his thoughts!!

Your are totallyright JCloughie in that the network is hit and miss -not used them much as we mostly charge at home-but the free podpoints at Tesco are very good-lidl are on the ball -with rapid chargers that aren't too pricey-but BP and ecotricity-major motorway players are quite poor in terms of feedback. Ionicity(McDonalds)-seem very reliable so far!

I sort off see that Tesco may provide free charging to attract custom. But it’s hard to see how it’s cost effective. Perhaps grants are being utilised. VW have been advertising they are installing free charging points accross the country, saying they will be available to all makes.

So I fail to see how charging is financed at the moment. But can guess than it won’t be subsidised forever. But it really has to be the way forward as hydrogen vehicle have never met there promise.

However. Does anyone watch the Extreme E off road series. Those vehicles all receive their charge from a hydrogen generator housed in a shipping container. Perhaps that might be a technology that finds a way forward.

John
 
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Just watching the Goodwood Festival of Speed. They have about 30 new BEV vehicles on view. OK one of them is €2.000.000. But they also have average road cars. They are developing at such a pace.

But they also have Mission H24 who have a working hydrogen car there. And they plan to run it at LeMans in 2024. But we still need a hydrogen manufacturing plant and distribution. I believe these are big sticking points.

John
 
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Adding any additional weight to a vehicle (ICE or EV) reduces the available range from a fuel tank or battery - That is basic physics.

Is it feasible to tow a caravan? Yes - but wit a diminished range. Will it be a 75% reduction of range? that depends on the car and the caravan, the speed and the terrane over which its towed.



I'm sorry but there are several new battery technologies being pursued not only to increase power density, but also to remove reliance on rare or contentious materials, and to increase battery longevity (number of discharge/ recharge cycles).

Your original question did not include a reference to cost, but the development stage of almost every single new development is high, Look at the cost of ICE vehicles when they were first introduced, The cost of sending men into space and beyond, but as time passes manufacturing costs invariably come down, and the same will be true for battery technologies. From yesterday - we now have space tourists (Jeff Bezos )


That is very interesting thought. Please can you explain how you came to the conclusion? The very very best ICE engines are almost reaching 50% thermal efficiencies, but most consumer products can still barely reach 30% at best. EV's whole life efficencies outstip whole ICE vehicles, and EV;s will improve further as we develop the technologies.

Running ICE engines are hopelessly inefficient and pollution generators when the vehicle isn't moving, which in cities is a lot of the time.



As far as I know there is no rational person who believes EV's are 100% efficient, or100% green. There is an environmental cost to every thing we do - including breathing, so to make such claims is entirely erroneous. And before accusing EV's of not being green, just think of how much green damage has been caused by the use of ICE vehicles over the last 100 years or so.

What has been said and is technically true, EV's have no tail pipe emissions, but there c ould be emissions at the power generation stages depending on what processes are used.

There are several sources of electric power, Those with zero generation emissions are wind, solar, wave, tidal, and nuclear. Both gas and coal produce generation emissions, but gas is considerably cleaner than coal. Different countries have different mixtures of these sources so the amount of emissions per kWh varies country to country. Here in the UK over the last 5 years, we have seen renewables ( zero emission) rise 20% to 40% of our average power production, and on occasions has touched 50%. The remaining load has been gas, nuclear and a continuing downward trend in coal generation.

Or reliance on importing electric power at the moment is being diminished as the UK installs more renewables, and nuclear , but also storage facilities that can be charged at low demand periods and feed back into the grid when demand is high. Not only are there dedicated storage facilities like this being developed, but many of the new EV cars will also allow for car to grid support. This could dramatically reduce our peak generation demands.

Solar PV is still quite force to be reckoned with. I do not know where you got your 2kWh per day figure from but that is not necessarily a typical figure. It is also wrong to assume that 2kWhs is insignificant, You can do quite a lot with that amount of energy used wisely. It is of course dependant on the size of the PV array and the hours of day light to generate power. You do not need bright sunlight.

Your suggestion that motorway services will not be able to cope - based on the present deployment of charging facilities, and the numbers of EV's that do take nearly an hour to go from 10 to 80% does look damming at the moment, however you have made four poor assumptions:-
  • Firstly newer EV's are can charge at higher rates thus reducing charging times.
  • Secondly Just becasue a can is claimed to be able to accept 250kW does not mean the car can accept that rate consistently between 10 and 80%. Most charging profiles tail off the charging rate as the battery fills up.
  • Thirdly, harping back to point I made earlier about local storage of power, most large car charging sites, will have their own on site storage which will charge up during low demand periods, and not place an instantaneous high demand on the grid.
  • Fourthly not everyone will need to stop at the services, becasue with home charging they will be starting with a full charge.
The power delivery systems are being steadily improved, and we will have a much wider distribution of charge points than we presently do, which should counter the range anxiety that is presently rife in the industry.
Good stuff Prof. But in eight years time I doubt my £75k EV will tug my old TA 300 miles non stop for my early morning Scottish breakfast at Tebay services and then 45 minutes later take me another 5 hours on narrow stop start roads.
But, I do think in the future, in my kids grown up time , my age now, it will be the norm. Our problem today is seeing beyond the horizon. Battery technology will be nothing like we understand today. steam to Diesel maybe. You never know , coal may become the magic power source, seriously👏👏👏
 
Jan 31, 2018
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Good stuff Prof. But in eight years time I doubt my £75k EV will tug my old TA 300 miles non stop for my early morning Scottish breakfast at Tebay services and then 45 minutes later take me another 5 hours on narrow stop start roads.
But, I do think in the future, in my kids grown up time , my age now, it will be the norm. Our problem today is seeing beyond the horizon. Battery technology will be nothing like we understand today. steam to Diesel maybe. You never know , coal may become the magic power source, seriously👏👏👏
Maybe not but who your tesla x right now easily available for £75k a year Old can do 150 to a tesla rapid charge point stop for 45mins then another 150.And that is now . So I am far more optimistic than you.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Just watching the Goodwood Festival of Speed. They have about 30 new BEV vehicles on view. OK one of them is €2.000.000. But they also have average road cars. They are developing at such a pace.

But they also have Mission H24 who have a working hydrogen car there. And they plan to run it at LeMans in 2024. But we still need a hydrogen manufacturing plant and distribution. I believe these are big sticking points.

John


They could recommission a couple of retired nuclear submarines. No shortage of old ones in Rosyth.
Ros Brawn believes F1 will move to hydrogen rather than plant derived fuels.
 
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Mar 14, 2005
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The future of touring caravanning as we know it is uncertain. however it will be several decades before existing ICE vehicles completely disappear, to the issue is not going to suddenly apply to all caravanners at the same time.

Even over the just the last 5 years we have seen BEV technology improve adding roughly 50% more range and much shorter charging times. These trends will continue, but it does need continued investment and expansion of the charging infrastructure as well as advances in the vehicles themselves.

It is also true that most of the legacy car manufacturers have been focusing on electrification of their Halo models with staggeringly impractical performance rather than models for the masses, though some more affordable products are beging to appear now. But despite this there has not been a concerted effort to address the minority issues of touring caravanning.

The well publicised characteristics of electric drives of high torque at low speeds seems the ideal combination for towing, but one of the main focuses of new car development is fuel efficiency, and fundamentally that means keep the mass as small as possible to reduce the power needed to accelerate, and particularly at speed keep the drag as small as possible. Roof racks and trailers are a very low priority at the moment, and caravans with their large bodies are even lower in the order of manufacturers priorities.

As more locations set lower maximum speed limits, perhaps the flagship manufacturers will begin to realise that their bread and butter is generated by people who need practical 4 and 5 seater transport rather than supercars.

I am absolutely sure that caravanning as we know it today will not continue. There will have to be a reappraisal of what can be realistically achieved with the vehicles available at the time. Caravan manufacturers may also need to review their offerings to make them more compatible with EV's.
 
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The future of touring caravanning as we know it is uncertain. however it will be several decades before existing ICE vehicles completely disappear, to the issue is not going to suddenly apply to all caravanners at the same time.

Even over the just the last 5 years we have seen BEV technology improve adding roughly 50% more range and much shorter charging times. These trends will continue, but it does need continued investment and expansion of the charging infrastructure as well as advances in the vehicles themselves.

It is also true that most of the legacy car manufacturers have been focusing on electrification of their Halo models with staggeringly impractical performance rather than models for the masses, though some more affordable products are beging to appear now. But despite this there has not been a concerted effort to address the minority issues of touring caravanning.

The well publicised characteristics of electric drives of high torque at low speeds seems the ideal combination for towing, but one of the main focuses of new car development is fuel efficiency, and fundamentally that means keep the mass as small as possible to reduce the power needed to accelerate, and particularly at speed keep the drag as small as possible. Roof racks and trailers are a very low priority at the moment, and caravans with their large bodies are even lower in the order of manufacturers priorities.

As more locations set lower maximum speed limits, perhaps the flagship manufacturers will begin to realise that their bread and butter is generated by people who need practical 4 and 5 seater transport rather than supercars.

I am absolutely sure that caravanning as we know it today will not continue. There will have to be a reappraisal of what can be realistically achieved with the vehicles available at the time. Caravan manufacturers may also need to review their offerings to make them more compatible with EV's.
Prof
Increasingly I am seeing more and more EV cars from mainstream manufactures that certainly aren’t Halo. These are cars targeted at ordinary people, albeit not that cheap, but they are everywhere. Perhaps you haven’t recognised them as EV. Good news that Audi have decided to keep a distinctive front grille despite not really requiring one for technical reason. Hope others follow, can’t stand bland.
 
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Prof
Increasingly I am seeing more and more EV cars from mainstream manufactures that certainly aren’t Halo. These are cars targeted at ordinary people, albeit not that cheap, but they are everywhere. Perhaps you haven’t recognised them as EV. Good news that Audi have decided to keep a distinctive front grille despite not really requiring one for technical reason. Hope others follow, can’t stand bland.
Oh yes I have noticed them! Ok, perhaps a little journalistic licence, but 9 out 10 new car reports are about the top of the line versions which are invariably impractical for families, or need a house mortgage to purchase them.

I think we now all know how stunningly super their performance can be, but most of us are looking to see how really practical they could be for 99.999% of the population.

Appearance is always going to be a matter of personal choice. - That's one reason why you can buy what is essentially the same car with a different badge from Audi, VW, Skoda, Seat and Cupra, or CItroen, Peugeot , Vauxhall, etc.
 
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Even if we wanted an EV, like 1000's of other people we would be unable to charge the EV at home and cannot have a cable across the pavement. Not sure how people in blocks of flats would cope. if they had an EV.
 
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Our previous home had a EV home charger put on the outside ready for us when we brought electric car like you not sure how it go on the Bungalow :)
 
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It's a shame re the press-the MG-estate has a range of 200 miles and is just over 20k-really decent range and I know people who are very happy with it. They're getting really popular-as you know I work on the roads and am seeing more and more-had a Tesla procession yesterday.Our Mini though low range is the same price as the equivalent equipped Cooper S and has the same region of performance too-though not range of course!
 
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If you compare the cost of an EV and a ICE vehicle over a three year period the ICE vehicle is till the cheapest in the long run.
For example a petrol Min cost about £16605 and the EV cost £26000. Fuel cost over a 3 year period is £3460 for the ICE and £1467 for the EV. Tax cost for petrol is £490 and zero for the EV over 3 years. Servicing cost for petrol is £648 and EV £360 over the 3 year period.
Therefore over a 3 year period the petrol Mini costs £21203 and the EV costs £27827 so a substantial difference.
The above is from the latest Which magazine and not from myself. They also do a comparison with the Peugeot 2008 and again over a 3 year period the petrol cost £28511 and the EV £32733.
Overall petrol is the winner on your pocket!
 
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If you compare the cost of an EV and a ICE vehicle over a three year period the ICE vehicle is till the cheapest in the long run.
For example a petrol Min cost about £16605 and the EV cost £26000. Fuel cost over a 3 year period is £3460 for the ICE and £1467 for the EV. Tax cost for petrol is £490 and zero for the EV over 3 years. Servicing cost for petrol is £648 and EV £360 over the 3 year period.
Therefore over a 3 year period the petrol Mini costs £21203 and the EV costs £27827 so a substantial difference.
The above is from the latest Which magazine and not from myself. They also do a comparison with the Peugeot 2008 and again over a 3 year period the petrol cost £28511 and the EV £32733.
Overall petrol is the winner on your pocket!
No one has ever said EV is cheaper than ICE and the figures don’t take into account retained value after three years. Whilst three years tends to be driven by the Fleet market for ICE how that market will see EV remains to be seen. Or how relative prices and costs will change over that period. The £4K differential will undoubtedly close quickly.
Certainly in our case an EV would not make sense whilst we run two cars. But hanging on to the two allows reasonable economics and flexibility for carrying five, loading or shorter economic runs. When we do go to one car it will have to be mid size (Golf Focus size) but given improvement in range and charging electric would be top of the list. If not then a PHEV.
 
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No one has ever said EV is cheaper than ICE and the figures don’t take into account retained value after three years. Whilst three years tends to be driven by the Fleet market for ICE how that market will see EV remains to be seen. Or how relative prices and costs will change over that period. The £4K differential will undoubtedly close quickly.
Certainly in our case an EV would not make sense whilst we run two cars. But hanging on to the two allows reasonable economics and flexibility for carrying five, loading or shorter economic runs. When we do go to one car it will have to be mid size (Golf Focus size) but given improvement in range and charging electric would be top of the list. If not then a PHEV.
Which also mentioned that the break even point for costs for both cars is about 11 years due to the high cost of the EV. The ICE may still be worth something at 11 years, but the EV I would think would be difficult to sell as batteries in the EV will be at the end of their life and cost a fortune to replace.

Like you we have two vehicles, the 4x4 and a 25 year old 1300 Corolla that still does over 40mpg and has only 115k on the clock and with a full service history. It is mainly used for urban work like shopping etc. and £40 of fuel easily lasts us a month of more. Being semi-hermits we do shopping once a week which is a 30 mile round trip and also with odd runs here and there.

We would like to upgrade but our reluctance is that a newer car, but not brand new will have to be on HP for 5 years to be able to afford it and I am reluctant to go down that route at this point in our lives.

A hydrid would probably be ideal for us as we live in a rural village and cannot plug in an EV to recharge. To us the Corolla Hydrid is about right size for us as I do not like small cars that make you feel claustophobic.
 
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Which also mentioned that the break even point for costs for both cars is about 11 years due to the high cost of the EV. The ICE may still be worth something at 11 years, but the EV I would think would be difficult to sell as batteries in the EV will be at the end of their life and cost a fortune to replace.

Like you we have two vehicles, the 4x4 and a 25 year old 1300 Corolla that still does over 40mpg and has only 115k on the clock and with a full service history. It is mainly used for urban work like shopping etc. and £40 of fuel easily lasts us a month of more. Being semi-hermits we do shopping once a week which is a 30 mile round trip and also with odd runs here and there.

We would like to upgrade but our reluctance is that a newer car, but not brand new will have to be on HP for 5 years to be able to afford it and I am reluctant to go down that route at this point in our lives.

A hydrid would probably be ideal for us as we live in a rural village and cannot plug in an EV to recharge. To us the Corolla Hydrid is about right size for us as I do not like small cars that make you feel claustophobic.
Ditto. The new Corolla is getting very good reviews.
 
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Examining this from a different angle, we have a government ramming this down our throats at every opportunity. But we are a small Island and the %age of problem gasses that we churn out pale into insignificance to the mega nations that are not getting behind it. Do they really think we can save the planet alone.
 
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Oh dear . I am actually saying our Mini EV is cheaper to run > Buckman-the 16k Mini is a Cooper not an S-the equivalent Mini to the SE in terms of kit and performance most definitely is not the Cooper with its lovely 1.5 turbo engine. See attached an acquaintances findings on the level 2 Mini SE. Ours is saving us a small fortune. How have they calculated £1400 for electricity-we can charge at TEsco for free and a variety of other sources-and when we change tariff 5p a unit from Octopus Go ? Me thinks the figures are totally biassed-wrong petrol car for a start-fair enough with the Pug but the Mini comparison is well out of order.
 

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Oh dear . I am actually saying our Mini EV is cheaper to run > Buckman-the 16k Mini is a Cooper not an S-the equivalent Mini to the SE in terms of kit and performance most definitely is not the Cooper with its lovely 1.5 turbo engine. See attached an acquaintances findings on the level 2 Mini SE. Ours is saving us a small fortune.
As said, not my calculations. Is there a lower spec EV Mini?
 
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If you look at this months magazine there is an article on the subject. It does show the the power use when towing is high but it does seem to vary between makes as the Swedes have tested three different makes but with the same caravan and the differences were quite marked. What was clear was that electric cars are only suitable for towing very light caravans, the Swedes used the lightest Hobby and a report on towing here used a Bailey Discovery. The answer is that they can tow if you have a very light caravan and a large towcar but there are other problems. including that very nearly all charging points are for solo cars.
Charging on sites seems less of a problem to me as most will be near a charging station so even if you can charge the caravan on site you should be able to do this locally.
At the moment you have to say that hybrids look more practical if you accept them as a reasonable alternative but you simply do not know where we will be in a few years time.
If you want them as a second car to be used locally they do have an advantage. Our neighbour has bought one as a second car and finds he can run it for near enough nothing as the local authority charging points are free. When they go shopping they can leave it on the council car park hooked up, walk to Tesco, do there shopping and walk back to find the car topped up for free.
 

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