Wind powered free energy this weekend

[Buckman]

No wind and no solar equates to no renewable power, but higher bills for consumers. What is so difficult to understand about that? Simples!

 

[otherclive]

No wind and no solar equates to no renewable power, but higher bills for consumers. What is so difficult to understand about that? Simples!

You can breath easy as at present renewables are 68%, and carbon neutral is 73%.and gas at 18%, but with the latter holding us all to ransom 😱

 

[GUMPY]

The Hive stat is in the hall and is set at 19deg which gives a comfortable temperature in the living areas.
At the moment I'm still juggling with it all and partly relying on the Hive to give over all regulation. The temperature on the boiler will be set for the living areas and I will use TRVs to reduce the temperature in the bedrooms.
Eventually I will get the boiler temperature down to 20 Deg (it's at 25 at the moment) and the Hive will just act as a time switch.
Then comes the evaluation to see if I'm using less gas than before which is the difficult bit.

It's all a bit of a juggling act 🫣

 

[Buckman]

You can breath easy as at present renewables are 68%, and carbon neutral is 73%.and gas at 18%, but with the latter holding us all to ransom 😱

I have not seen our electric bill drop by 68% or even 34%, but I have seen it going up! 😭

 

[Oscarmax]

We have a 8 year old 2 bedroom bungalow ideal combi boiler in the daytime not set at 22 degrees C and 18 degrees C at night, we have changed all the original rads to Alloy units, unfortunately we are on 10mm microbore and no internal room for a water tank.

We use approximately 6772.86 kWh of gas = £392.83 = £114.28 std charge = £507.11, We are due to change the kitchen very soon we will replace the Ideal with a Bosch Combi.

 

[Tobes]

I have not seen our electric bill drop by 68% or even 34%, but I have seen it going up! 😭

Because the bill is still linked to the price of gas generation, which is high. Without renewables, your bill would be even higher.

 

[Buckman]

Because the bill is still linked to the price of gas generation, which is high. Without renewables, your bill would be even higher.

Thank you for giving me the best laugh of the morning. My sides are now hurting! 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

 

[Beachball]

We have a 8 year old 2 bedroom bungalow ideal combi boiler in the daytime not set at 22 degrees C and 18 degrees C at night, we have changed all the original rads to Alloy units, unfortunately we are on 10mm microbore and no internal room for a water tank.

We use approximately 6772.86 kWh of gas = £392.83 = £114.28 std charge = £507.11, We are due to change the kitchen very soon we will replace the Ideal with a Bosch Combi.

We have just had our 7 year old Intergas combi boiler since new serviced with british gas so far okay but the engineer said if you change it in the near future he recommended the Combi you mention, but before then we need work doing in the bungalow .

 

[otherclive]

We have a 8 year old 2 bedroom bungalow ideal combi boiler in the daytime not set at 22 degrees C and 18 degrees C at night, we have changed all the original rads to Alloy units, unfortunately we are on 10mm microbore and no internal room for a water tank.

We use approximately 6772.86 kWh of gas = £392.83 = £114.28 std charge = £507.11, We are due to change the kitchen very soon we will replace the Ideal with a Bosch Combi.

Our house was built mid 1980s and is an extended four bedroom detached. In 2024 we used 6857 kwhr of gas costing £473 including the standing charge for 2024. So far in 2025 we have used . 5049kwhr at £321 including standing charge. We have gas central heating and water, with gas cooker and free standing gas fire in the lounge, and tend to swap around fixed tariffs with British Gas when the offerings are good, and with no exit fees. Our usage over the six years in the house has been pretty consistent, fortunately no meteorological Beast from the East over that period, although the current Beast from the East has increased energy costs for all. 😂

 

[GUMPY]

I find it interesting that some people have no comprehension of just how much renewables reduce day to day prices. I guess they are on fixed tarrifs so don't see any changes until they come to renew.

During dunkelflaute* my electricity prices can vary between 80p and 20p kWh depending on the time of day. Daytime price excluding the evening peak is about 30p
Today and tomorrow when there is plenty of wind power prices vary between 30p and Minus 3p depending on the time of day. Daytime price excluding the evening peak is about 15p.

This makes me very aware of just how much renewables contribute to our prices and leads me to the game of trying not to use any electricity that costs above my export price.

*Dunkelflaute translates to "dark wind lull" or "dark doldrums" and describes a period of low energy production from renewable sources due to a combination of low wind speeds and lack of sunshine

 

[GUMPY]

Blimey you lot make my gas use seem positively profligate.
3 bed 1985 detached mainly on one level with bedrooms above the garage. Gas heating and gas water heating with help from solar thermal. In my defence C does like it warm.
So far this year 9139kWh, £616
Last year 13113kWh £756
I do compensate with my electric use of £248 of which £190 is standing charge😎

 

[Sam Vimes]

An interesting write up from the Prof but I think it's missing a couple of factors. While its true that the take up of alternative means of transport and heating is phased in, it is an extra demand on the grid system that current perhaps less green methods don't place.

The additional missing factor is the enormous demands being made on the grid by the rapid expansion and building of Data Centres to fuel the demand for AI and other Cloud Services.

In respect of the Coefficient of Performance of Heat Pumps, the more appropriate number to use is the Seasonal Coefficient of Performance because Heat Pumps don't do so well in colder weather. And when is the greatest demand put on a Heat Pump - in the cooler seasons.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Whatever the advantages of greener techologies have on the evironment and whether or not we can support them, the bottom line for most people is 'How does this affect my wallet?'

Skeptic that I am but I would think most people choose alternative technologies on the basis of presumed cost savings first then once initiated go on about how it supports the environment.

 

[otherclive]

Blimey you lot make my gas use seem positively profligate.
3 bed 1985 detached mainly on one level with bedrooms above the garage. Gas heating and gas water heating with help from solar thermal. In my defence C does like it warm.
So far this year 9139kWh, £616
Last year 13113kWh £756
I do compensate with my electric use of £248 of which £190 is standing charge😎

That’s an interesting comparison wrt electric usage, as don’t you have solar panels, battery storage, as our for 2024 was 1587kwhrs electric at £406 including standing charge. Given your investment in renewables I don’t feel so bad. But of course the big factor is as you say how you use your heating throughout the year. We spend hours in Costa or the town library (tic).

 

[GUMPY]

Skeptic that I am but I would think most people choose alternative technologies on the basis of presumed cost savings first then once initiated go on about how it supports the environment.

For me it was a balance between the two, I now play the game of maximizing my returns.

 

[Sam Vimes]

My gas usage is about 1.5 x19kg of propane a year

 

[Sam Vimes]

FWIW:- These are the yearly constraint payments to wind farm operators. This is what they are paid for generating nothing.

SP/DayDayMonthYearWindfarms

Year	Cost	MWh	Price	Num WF
2025	£292,897,493	7,845,073	£37	112
2024	£393,492,798	8,343,438	£47	115
2023	£310,482,753	4,364,680	£71	111
2022	£227,183,472	3,898,620	£58	101
2021	£143,342,294	2,349,009	£61	88
2020	£274,161,002	3,696,019	£74	93
2019	£138,992,769	1,940,178	£72	86
2018	£124,649,106	1,724,188	£72	84
2017	£108,247,860	1,542,285	£70	73
2016	£81,861,075	1,134,627	£72	52
2015	£90,738,134	1,276,264	£71	46
2014	£53,261,058	659,350	£81	40
2013	£32,707,351	379,817	£86	33
2012	£5,924,231	45,463	£130	19
2011	£12,826,756	58,708	£218	14
2010	£174,128	976	£178	3

 

[GUMPY]

That’s an interesting comparison wrt electric usage, as don’t you have solar panels, battery storage, as our for 2024 was 1587kwhrs electric at £406 including standing charge. Given your investment in renewables I don’t feel so bad. But of course the big factor is as you say how you use your heating throughout the year. We spend hours in Costa or the town library (tic).

I spend hours at home so once the heating reaches temperature in the morning 7am, it stays there until we go to bed 10.30pm.
My actual electricity usage is double my grid use, total usage is about 3000kWh a year of which 1500 comes direct from solar, on top of that I export about 2700kWh a year to the grid, enough to power another house.

 

[GUMPY]

FWIW:- These are the yearly constraint payments to wind farm operators. This is what they are paid for generating nothing.

SP/DayDayMonthYearWindfarms

Year	Cost	MWh	Price	Num WF
2025	£292,897,493	7,845,073	£37	112
2024	£393,492,798	8,343,438	£47	115
2023	£310,482,753	4,364,680	£71	111
2022	£227,183,472	3,898,620	£58	101
2021	£143,342,294	2,349,009	£61	88
2020	£274,161,002	3,696,019	£74	93
2019	£138,992,769	1,940,178	£72	86
2018	£124,649,106	1,724,188	£72	84
2017	£108,247,860	1,542,285	£70	73
2016	£81,861,075	1,134,627	£72	52
2015	£90,738,134	1,276,264	£71	46
2014	£53,261,058	659,350	£81	40
2013	£32,707,351	379,817	£86	33
2012	£5,924,231	45,463	£130	19
2011	£12,826,756	58,708	£218	14
2010	£174,128	976	£178	3

If there were transmission lines available to transport the electricity then those payments would vanish. Unfortunately due to NIMBYs it's getting increasingly difficult to put the lines in place.

 

[Buckman]

Whatever the advantages of greener techologies have on the evironment and whether or not we can support them, the bottom line for most people is 'How does this affect my wallet?'

Skeptic that I am but I would think most people choose alternative technologies on the basis of presumed cost savings first then once initiated go on about how it supports the environment.

Strangely with all the talk of renewables making electric cheaper, why is the standing charge and also cost per kwh increasing constantly? We are not seeing any benefit at present!

 

[Sam Vimes]

If there were transmission lines available to transport the electricity then those payments would vanish. Unfortunately due to NIMBYs it's getting increasingly difficult to put the lines in place.

Not entirely true as constraint payments are made to conventional generators as well. Its all part of the load balancing method.

Here we generate a lot of wind power and the West Coast Feeder does shove some of it down south but it was blighted by lots of technical issuse resulting in much downtime. Now there is an East Coast Feeder - not sure of its status or technicalities.

But as I mentioned elsewhere there is going to be gridlock because high deman areas due to more EVs and Heat Pumps may be in regions where the distribution lines themselves can't cope with the additional loading. Too man Amps needed down too small a wire.

 

[Buckman]

People may not be aware of it, but we have been paying for "line loss" for over 50 years. The loss is the line loss factor. Line loss is the distance over which the power is transmitted from the sub station/transmission line to the consumer. It is normally included in the standing charge as it is a charge by the distribution company and not the supplier.

If you look at your bill, the first two figures indicate the type of supply, i.e. domestic or business. The next 3 figures are the type of meter and the next 3 are the Line Loss Factor.

 

[RogerL]

Blimey you lot make my gas use seem positively profligate.
3 bed 1985 detached mainly on one level with bedrooms above the garage. Gas heating and gas water heating with help from solar thermal. In my defence C does like it warm.
So far this year 9139kWh, £616
Last year 13113kWh £756
I do compensate with my electric use of £248 of which £190 is standing charge😎

Even your consumption makes mine look very wasteful - but my health means we run the house quite warm and we're quite miserly in many other aspects of expense.

 

[ProfJohnL]

An interesting write up from the Prof but I think it's missing a couple of factors. While its true that the take up of alternative means of transport and heating is phased in, it is an extra demand on the grid system that current perhaps less green methods don't place.

The additional missing factor is the enormous demands being made on the grid by the rapid expansion and building of Data Centres to fuel the demand for AI and other Cloud Services.

In respect of the Coefficient of Performance of Heat Pumps, the more appropriate number to use is the Seasonal Coefficient of Performance because Heat Pumps don't do so well in colder weather. And when is the greatest demand put on a Heat Pump - in the cooler seasons.

My post was specifically tailored to the comments in this thread about how much extra load the grid would see due to EV's and Heat pumps which was highlighted by one particular contributor who has been spreading messages of doom and endless power cuts caused by the extra demand for EV's and now heat pumps. Notably these forewarnings have not come true for the reasons including those I gave.

Compared to 5 years ago the extra load has broadly been matched by the increase in renewables. this would improve significantly if we had much more grid scale storage to keep excess generated energy at times of plenty ready to feed in during periods of high demand.

I deliberately chose a COP of 3 because it represents a reasonable average across all heat pumps and seasonal changes. In practice that figure is probably pessimistic.

We do need to be aware of other issues like the data centers and they may be a cause for concern, I have reasonable confidence that the Grid and generators will have reviewed the power demands for each new centre and only sanctioned its connection to the grid after all the loads have been considered. Conversely if the infrastructure is not strong enough, that should have stopped the proposal at the planning stage.

I have heard that some of theses sites actually have been installed in locations where grid supplies are insufficient in several places around the world, so the site operator has chosen to generate their own electricity, so the local grid is not used. Unfortunately these generators are not always low carbon.

 

[Buckman]

It does seem that the contributor to whom you refer is correct in their assumptions regarding the national grid not coping at times when the renewables have to be shut down because they are supplying too much power and at other times not enough. Are you getting your incorrect information from a Google AI search?