Wind powered free energy this weekend

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Dec 27, 2022
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I am truly impressed, the majority of our grid use is off peak charging the car and battery.
That's the thing, I don't have an electric car
Looking back over my export figures I could certainly have charged the car from solar instead of exporting but that would cost me more in lost export at 15p/kWh than charging from the grid.

It's all a balancing act, I hope I'm getting the maximum return, I certainly put enough brain power into it, might have to look at automation 🫣
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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Our heat pump switches on at 6am until 9am and then again from 4pm until 8pm. Both are peak times, but no chance of the free electric from Octopus. However with winter approaching we will need to start using the tumble drier again so the free electric could be of use.

With all these 100s of thousands of new homes being built and heat pumps being installed surely at the times I mentioned there will be a massive drain on the grid as all the heat pumps will switch on around the same time in the morning? Plus of course these huge data centres being built which requires masses of energy. I wonder if the grid will be able to cope or will black outs become more frequent especially during periods when it is overcast with no wind for long periods?
 
Oct 11, 2023
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Our heat pump switches on at 6am until 9am and then again from 4pm until 8pm. Both are peak times, but no chance of the free electric from Octopus. However with winter approaching we will need to start using the tumble drier again so the free electric could be of use.

With all these 100s of thousands of new homes being built and heat pumps being installed surely at the times I mentioned there will be a massive drain on the grid as all the heat pumps will switch on around the same time in the morning? Plus of course these huge data centres being built which requires masses of energy. I wonder if the grid will be able to cope or will black outs become more frequent especially during periods when it is overcast with no wind for long periods?
There is guy on the Mobility site, he recently installed a heat pump, solar panel and a Fogstar 30kWh using a grant loan in Scotland, they have a EV car and Octopus Inteligence.
 

Sam Vimes

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We don't have an EV, Solar Panels, Heat Pump, Gas Boiler, or Electric Heaters (we'll just one 1400W ).

So doing our bit for the environment by not buying them in the first place 😉
 
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Oct 11, 2023
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Our heat pump switches on at 6am until 9am and then again from 4pm until 8pm. Both are peak times, but no chance of the free electric from Octopus. However with winter approaching we will need to start using the tumble drier again so the free electric could be of use.

With all these 100s of thousands of new homes being built and heat pumps being installed surely at the times I mentioned there will be a massive drain on the grid as all the heat pumps will switch on around the same time in the morning? Plus of course these huge data centres being built which requires masses of energy. I wonder if the grid will be able to cope or will black outs become more frequent especially during periods when it is overcast with no wind for long periods?
We took advantage of EV charger grant scheme in 2020 our Podpoint 7 kWh EV charger on £350 all in. Octopus Go I have the best of both world, cheap off peak 8.5 pence to charge the car, and 15 pence export.

The plus side we can run the PHEV on off peak electric until April when we start towing again.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Our heat pump switches on at 6am until 9am and then again from 4pm until 8pm. Both are peak times, but no chance of the free electric from Octopus. However with winter approaching we will need to start using the tumble drier again so the free electric could be of use.

With all these 100s of thousands of new homes being built and heat pumps being installed surely at the times I mentioned there will be a massive drain on the grid as all the heat pumps will switch on around the same time in the morning? Plus of course these huge data centres being built which requires masses of energy. I wonder if the grid will be able to cope or will black outs become more frequent especially during periods when it is overcast with no wind for long periods?
I’ve yet to see any new builds near us with heat pumps. My grandsons new house ( late 2024) is gas fired CH, and the houses still being built on his development are not with heat pumps. Given we are falling short of the house building target of 300,000 per year and barely achieving 200, 000 per year it’s going to be some time before heat pump installations affect the grid supplies.

But there are new inter connectors from Scotland coming south, and a backlog of offshore wind farms requiring connecting to the grid. Near us new solar farms have associated battery storage, some with diesel generation too. In wider UK larger battery storage is also being built, as is the new Hinckley Point C, and Sizewell C in the future. One aspect not to be forgotten is that new electric cars are starting to have the ability to feed power back in to the grid, the new Nissan Leaf, being a good example. There is also a steady rise in home owners installing solar and battery systems which either reduce the load on the grid, or can put power in to the grid. Even today, a relatively low wind day, Gridwatch reports 49% from wind,and gas at 10%. So it’s not all doom and gloom, progress is being made, but not widely reported.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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I’ve yet to see any new builds near us with heat pumps. My grandsons new house ( late 2024) is gas fired CH, and the houses still being built on his development are not with heat pumps. Given we are falling short of the house building target of 300,000 per year and barely achieving 200, 000 per year it’s going to be some time before heat pump installations affect the grid supplies.

But there are new inter connectors from Scotland coming south, and a backlog of offshore wind farms requiring connecting to the grid. Near us new solar farms have associated battery storage, some with diesel generation too. In wider UK larger battery storage is also being built, as is the new Hinckley Point C, and Sizewell C in the future. One aspect not to be forgotten is that new electric cars are starting to have the ability to feed power back in to the grid, the new Nissan Leaf, being a good example. There is also a steady rise in home owners installing solar and battery systems which either reduce the load on the grid, or can put power in to the grid. Even today, a relatively low wind day, Gridwatch reports 49% from wind,and gas at 10%. So it’s not all doom and gloom, progress is being made, but not widely reported.
I thought it was now mandatory for new builds to have heat pumps? All the new builds around us have had heat pumps installed whether or not you wanted the heat pump!

Although building targets are not being met, there is probably still that extra drain on the grid in some areas even without heat pumps being involved. You cannot add a thousand homes onto the grid without doing some substantial improvements. In an area not far from us which is currently a rural area or farmland the proposal is to build 2000 homes, but no additional schools or surgeries.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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I thought it was now mandatory for new builds to have heat pumps? All the new builds around us have had heat pumps installed whether or not you wanted the heat pump!

Although building targets are not being met, there is probably still that extra drain on the grid in some areas even without heat pumps being involved. You cannot add a thousand homes onto the grid without doing some substantial improvements. In an area not far from us which is currently a rural area or farmland the proposal is to build 2000 homes, but no additional schools or surgeries.
There’s the transition phase for new homes with permits that ends in 2027. So many homes being built now may not be being fitted with heat pumps. My grandsons didn’t offer an option for heat pump or solar panels.
 

Sam Vimes

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I wonder what constitutes a New Build. If I build a house today but don't install any form of heating but in a years time want to do so - can I put in anything I want?
 
Jul 23, 2021
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I was thinking of having panels and battery fitted to our daughter’s house as it has a large south facing roof,but there’s no grants available. Yet I could fit a new gas boiler and get 40% relief as it counts as a renewal, not upgrade.
The current incentive is that solar and battery are 0 rate VAT.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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The current incentive is that solar and battery are 0 rate VAT.
It still costs me money to have them installed and whilst I would not get tax allowance it’s better to plan for replacing the boiler at some stage. With three working adults in the house they are welcome to contribute if they want solar or heat pump. The current condensing gas boiler is around 10 years old and was granted funded. 🙈
 
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I wonder what constitutes a New Build. If I build a house today but don't install any form of heating but in a years time want to do so - can I put in anything I want?
You best investigate what these permits cover and how they are applied for. I suspect it may cover developments that had planning approval at the time a final decision on cut off date was declared.
 

Sam Vimes

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Sep 7, 2020
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It still costs me money to have them installed and whilst I would not get tax allowance it’s better to plan for replacing the boiler at some stage. With three working adults in the house they are welcome to contribute if they want solar or heat pump. The current condensing gas boiler is around 10 years old and was granted funded. 🙈
One of the considerations may also be how long the occupier intends to stay in the house. Somewhat of an unknown in some cases but for working people a move could so easily come about if work forces a move somewhere else.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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One of the considerations may also be how long the occupier intends to stay in the house. Somewhat of an unknown in some cases but for working people a move could so easily come about if work forces a move somewhere else.
I think our daughter will be in the house until we depart this mortal coil. It wasn’t planned that way, but it’s allowed her stability to bring up the grandchildren and latterly complete two degrees and develop her own career.
 
Jan 3, 2012
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In our area subject to plot and development your new home will come complete with either a high efficiency combination boiler or a air source heat pump installed.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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This is a long and detailed posting, and I suggest you only read it all if you are interested in why the National grid and generators will not have take on the whole equivalent load when cars and gas boilers are switched to electricity.

It's sensible to wonder how the national grid will work when all the low carbon initiatives move away from fossil fuels to electricity. WIll we end up having more outages or is the National Grid resilient enough to cope or does it need to change?

Even without the carbon zero initiatives, our national consumption of electricity has always increased over time. It's hardly surprising because amongst other factors our population is increasing, and we are all using more electrical products, so the grid has always needed to expand its capacity. At least five years ago the management team of the grid made the statement that the grid will cope with the extra demand caused by EV take up. and so far it has proven to be correct.

Like most new technologies, the take up of EV's was not instantaneous, so there has been time for the grid to adjust and expand its infrastructure to meet the demand, and the same will be true for heat pump take up which was mentioned in #52.

The change over to heat pumps won't be instantaneous ether, it will be a gradual transition, so the grid will not find it has to power millions of new heat pumps suddenly overnight, there will be time for the grid (and the generators) to be adapted to cover the additional demand.

Unless you have already looked into the subject, you may not appreciate the scale of the challenge. You may think the grid needs to add as much extra capacity as the fuel energy previously used by ICE and gas boilers, but that is not the case:- It has been definitively proven that EV's and heat pumps are significantly more energy efficient than their predecessor technologies.

For example:-
It is easier to compare the difference inefficiency of a vehicle if the distance and fuel consumed is presented in the same units for this reason I will use miles per kiloWatt hours (kWh.) As the distance is already expressed in Miles, we only need to look at how to convert litres of fuel to its equivalent in kWh

There is plenty of good evidence that shows the available power from a litre of petrol or diesel has a direct equivalence in kiloWatt hours (kWh). Diesel has between 9.9 and 10.7 kWh, Petrol has between 9.5 and 9.7kWh so for a quick and simplified review of relative efficiencies I will assume both petrol and diesel produce 10kWh of power per litre, and that is actually being slightly kind to the power density of petrol!

Thus the fuel efficiency in terms of miles per kWh is calculated miles travelled divided by the litres of fuel used and then all divided by 10

m/kWh = (miles/litres) / 10

Here is a table of some comparisons

25mpg = 0.55m/kWh
30mpg = 0.66m/kWh
35mpg = 0.77m/kWh
40mpg = 0.88m/kWh
45mpg = 0.99m/kWh

You have to be doing better than 45mpg to get to at least 1mile per kWh! This is all due to the inherent inevitable inefficiency of ICE engines.

By comparison, most EV's are proven to do 2 or more miles to the kWh, with many now achieving between 3.5 and 5 miles /kWh which is a huge improvement. Even if we take a median value of say just 3m/kWh . what it means is the grid will only need to supply 1/3 of the energy to recharge the vehicle compared to the amount of fossil fuel the driver would have needed for their ICE vehicle.

The comparison is similar when we look at home heating and hot water .

Even using modern condensing gas boilers, In simple terms the process is to factor the area of the radiators on the heating circuit and add the peak instantaneous hot water production to estimate the size of boiler needed. The instant hot water is the biggest factor which is why typical domestic boilers are usually between 25 and 50kW heat input. This is because in a combi the water is heated on demand and it needs a high heat input rate to produce a decent flow of hot water for both the taps and the radiators. However if you actually record how much gas is consumed over a day, it's actually far less than the burner's full bore capacity. Depending on the model of boiler you have the burner will either be turned off or fully on (Equivalent to power reduction by pulse width modulation) or the size of the flame will be modulated to match the heat input to the demand the property want's.

Ultimately the gas consumed over a day is generally a small faction compared to the boiler running at full power over the same period. I make this point becasue when switching to Heat Pump, not only is the heat source very different but also the way the system can releases the heat into the property.

Where as a condensing boiler may produce hot water at 70C, a heat pump system may only reach 60C, so to match the heat in put into a property it will need to run for longer than a condensing boiler. It may also take longer to raise the temperature of the property and in some cases radiators may need to be changed to increase their surface area so lower temperature water can transfer enough heat into the property. Some heat pump users have changed the way they use their heating system, and now keep it turned on at the same room temperature 24/7.

But the key difference between a heat pump and a combustion boiler is the heat pump does not use energy to make heat, it uses energy to move heat, usually from outside to inside for heating and some can work in reverse and actually reduce the internal temperature when needed in hot weather. A properly specified and installed unit can appear to produce more heat inside a property than the energy it consumes. In fact to show this "apparent" heat gain, Heat pump's are usually given a Coefficient of Performance figure (CoP) and for normal UK domestic installations they should be a minimum of 3 for heating but can drop to just 2 when hot water is also produced. But in ideal situations the CoP of a well installed system might reach 5! This means for every Watt of energy used to run the heat pump it might actually move 5W of heat into or out of a property

In the context of the additional load on the Grid, in practice a heat pump should need less electricity than 1/3rd of the heating fuel needed by a gas boiler to do the same amount of heating. There is a problem and that I have mentioned above it may need a change to the way you schedule your heating to achieve heat parity

To summarise compared to the fossil fuel energy needed for cars and domestic heating, the switch to electric will add some demand to the national grid, but due to the inherent efficiencies of EV's and Heat pumps the grid will not have to shoulder the same energy demand the previous technologies needed.

The grid is and will continue to change to accommodate these extra loads, but the changes are not as drastic as simply matching previous energy uses.
 
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Jul 23, 2021
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There is a chart that helps show this. Here is one version of it (a subset on electricity generation) from 2022. 1761852031093.png
 
Nov 11, 2009
25,212
9,145
50,935
This is a long and detailed posting, and I suggest you only read it all if you are interested in why the National grid and generators will not have take on the whole equivalent load when cars and gas boilers are switched to electricity.

It's sensible to wonder how the national grid will work when all the low carbon initiatives move away from fossil fuels to electricity. WIll we end up having more outages or is the National Grid resilient enough to cope or does it need to change?

Even without the carbon zero initiatives, our national consumption of electricity has always increased over time. It's hardly surprising because amongst other factors our population is increasing, and we are all using more electrical products, so the grid has always needed to expand its capacity. At least five years ago the management team of the grid made the statement that the grid will cope with the extra demand caused by EV take up. and so far it has proven to be correct.

Like most new technologies, the take up of EV's was not instantaneous, so there has been time for the grid to adjust and expand its infrastructure to meet the demand, and the same will be true for heat pump take up which was mentioned in #52.

The change over to heat pumps won't be instantaneous ether, it will be a gradual transition, so the grid will not find it has to power millions of new heat pumps suddenly overnight, there will be time for the grid (and the generators) to be adapted to cover the additional demand.

Unless you have already looked into the subject, you may not appreciate the scale of the challenge. You may think the grid needs to add as much extra capacity as the fuel energy previously used by ICE and gas boilers, but that is not the case:- It has been definitively proven that EV's and heat pumps are significantly more energy efficient than their predecessor technologies.

To show the difference it's helpful to use a common unit such as the kWh. Diesel has between 9.9 and 10.7 kWh, Petrol has between 9.5 and 9.7kWh per litre, so it's reasonable to


, Its convenient that commercial grades of petrol and diesel both have approximately 10kWh of energy in each litre, and most domestic boilers are also rated in kW's and of course we buy our electricity by the kW hour.

For example:-
It is easier to compare the difference inefficiency of a vehicle if the distance and fuel consumed is presented in the same units for this reason I will use miles per kiloWatt hours (kWh.) As the distance is already expressed in Miles, we only need to look at how to convert litres of fuel to its equivalent in kWh

There is plenty of good evidence that shows the available power from a litre of petrol or diesel has a direct equivalence in kiloWatt hours (kWh). Diesel has between 9.9 and 10.7 kWh, Petrol has between 9.5 and 9.7kWh so for a quick and simplified review of relative efficiencies I will assume both petrol and diesel produce 10kWh of power per litre, and that is actually being slightly kind to the power density of petrol!

Thus the fuel efficiency in terms of miles per kWh is calculated miles travelled divided by the litres of fuel used and then all divided by 10

m/kWh = (miles/litres) / 10

Here is a table of some comparisons

25mpg = 0.55m/kWh
30mpg = 0.66m/kWh
35mpg = 0.77m/kWh
40mpg = 0.88m/kWh
45mpg = 0.99m/kWh

You have to be doing better than 45mpg to get to at least 1mile per kWh! This is all due to the inherent inevitable inefficiency of ICE engines.

By comparison, most EV's are proven to do 2 or more miles to the kWh, with many now achieving between 3.5 and 5 miles /kWh which is a huge improvement. Even if we take a median value of say just 3kWh . what it means is the grid will only need to supply 1/3 of the energy to recharge the vehicle compared to the amount of fossil fuel the driver would have needed for their ICE vehicle.

The comparison is even greater when we look at home heating and hot water .

Even using modern condensing gas boilers, In simple terms the process is to factor the area of the radiators on the heating circuit and add the peak instantaneous hot water production to estimate the size of boiler needed. The instant hot water is the biggest factor which is why typical domestic boilers are usually between 25 and 50kW heat input. This is because in a combi the water is heated on demand and it needs a high heat input rate to produce a decent flow of hot water for both the taps and the radiators. However if you actually record how much gas is consumed over a day, it's actually far less than the burner's full bore capacity. Depending on the model of boiler you have the burner will either be turned off or fully on (Equivalent to power reduction by pulse width modulation) or the size of the flame will be modulated to match the heat input to the demand the property want's.

Ultimately the gas consumed over a day is generally a small faction compared to the boiler running at full power over the same period. I make this point becasue when switching to Heat Pump, not only is the heat source very different but also the way the system can releases the heat into the property.

Where as a condensing boiler may produce hot water at 70C, a heat pump system may only reach 60C, so to match the heat in put into a property it will need to run for longer than a condensing boiler. It may also take longer to raise the temperature of the property and in some cases radiators may need to be changed to increase their surface area so lower temperature water can transfer enough heat into the property. Some heat pump users have changed the way they use their heating system, and now keep it turned on at the same room temperature 24/7.

But the key difference between a heat pump and a combustion boiler is the heat pump does not use energy to make heat, it uses energy to move heat, usually from outside to inside for heating and some can work in reverse and actually reduce the internal temperature when needed in hot weather. A properly specified and installed unit can appear to produce more heat inside a property than the energy it consumes. In fact to show this "apparent" heat gain, Heat pump's are usually given a Coefficient of Performance figure (CoP) and for normal UK domestic installations they should be a minimum of 3 for heating but can drop to just 2 when hot water is also produced. But in ideal situations the CoP of a well installed system might reach 5! This means for every Watt of energy used to run the heat pump it might actually move 5W of heat into or out of a property

In the context of the additional load on the Grid, in practice a heat pump should need less electricity than 1/3rd of the heating fuel needed by a gas boiler to do the same amount of heating. There is a problem and that I have mentioned above it may need a change to the way you schedule your heating to achieve heat parity

To summarise compared to the fossil fuel energy needed for cars and domestic heating, the switch to electric will add some demand to the national grid, but due to the inherent efficiencies of EV's and Heat pumps the grid will not have to shoulder the same energy demand the previous technologies needed.

The grid is and will continue to change to accommodate these extra loads, but the changes are not as drastic as simply matching previous energy uses.
A very detailed and interesting discourse, thank you. Of course things are also changing wrt diversification of load and source. We are seeing increasing installation of battery storage distributed around the country. Now solar panel prices have reduced and domestic battery storage is starting to ramp up there will be more domestic resilience for importing to or exporting from domestic systems. Lastly as EV numbers increase more cars will be fitted with systems that allow them to export power to the grid. All of this being underpinned by a least two new large nuclear stations, HPC, Sizewell C.
 
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A very detailed and interesting discourse, thank you. Of course things are also changing wrt diversification of load and source. We are seeing increasing installation of battery storage distributed around the country. Now solar panel prices have reduced and domestic battery storage is starting to ramp up there will be more domestic resilience for importing to or exporting from domestic systems. Lastly as EV numbers increase more cars will be fitted with systems that allow them to export power to the grid. All of this being underpinned by a least two new large nuclear stations, HPC, Sizewell C.
This absolutely true, and the more local storage that can be set up the better.

It needs peopel to accept that change is coming, and we need to adapt. In reality it's no harder to use energy differently but it may feel unnatural until the new ethos has become commonplace. To paraphrase an old BT advert, it's time to work smarter not harder.

Yes there will some who try to bury their heads in the sand to ignore what happening, and unfortunately there is also a lobby of people who are intent on deliberately spreading misinformation about the subject paid for by the oil barons who are trying to protect their financial security. But despite their efforts, even in the USA there is significant movement towards the adoption of low carbon technologies, and an increasing pool of information that show real world benefits of moving to EV's and and the reduction of burning one use only fossil fuels.
 
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I have just had to replace a gas boiler, unfortunately I couldn't afford a heat pump, too much pipework to change to get the efficiency. So I went for a gas boiler with temperature compensation, this means you set the temperature that you want the house to be on the boiler and the boiler decides on the flow temperature needed to heat the house according to the outside temp.
I'm surprised just how cool the system now runs, it's yet to be cold enough outside to necessitate the 55deg flow temp I used to have the old boiler set at.
The boiler rarely gets to full output unless it's heating water when the flow temp is 80deg only do this once a day when the heating starts in the morning it also means the house heats quickly before dropping back to low flow temps.

The flow v outside temp is shown below.
1000024559.png

There is also cheap <2p electricity tonight and tomorrow night is <0. Much house battery charging going on after the higher prices of the last few days.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I have just had to replace a gas boiler, unfortunately I couldn't afford a heat pump, too much pipework to change to get the efficiency. So I went for a gas boiler with temperature compensation, this means you set the temperature that you want the house to be on the boiler and the boiler decides on the flow temperature needed to heat the house according to the outside temp.
I'm surprised just how cool the system now runs, it's yet to be cold enough outside to necessitate the 55deg flow temp I used to have the old boiler set at.
The boiler rarely gets to full output unless it's heating water when the flow temp is 80deg only do this once a day when the heating starts in the morning it also means the house heats quickly before dropping back to low flow temps.

The flow v outside temp is shown below.
View attachment 9827

There is also cheap <2p electricity tonight and tomorrow night is <0. Much house battery charging going on after the higher prices of the last few days.

I was aware of a boiler system that did this back in the early 1970's, and it seemed to work quite well. It wasn't a condensing boiler.
 
Dec 27, 2022
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I was aware of a boiler system that did this back in the early 1970's, and it seemed to work quite well. It wasn't a condensing boiler.
This is a condensing boiler and has an outside sensor, the alternative was an Opentherm system but that meant changing the whole control system.
We shall see how I get on with it, can change to Opentherm if I get bored.
 

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