Ain't life grand

[Lord Braykewynde]

LUTZ

There is a German decendant here in the United Kingdom who claims from the British Governemt millions of pounds every year

her name is Queen Elizabeth Oh and by the way her husband is Greek

Some people on this site don't seem to realise the World has moved on and are blinkered to many things

Yes john, this family costs us £74 million per year which equates to about £60 per head of population per year.
She works consistently as does Phil for the country despite their ages. They bring in more revenue to the exchequer through tourism and sales than what it costs out of the public purse.
The cost for the UK just to be a member of the EU club is £7 BILLION. What do we get in return? This figure doesn't include all the other payments like bailing out Eurozone countries when we don't even belong to the Eurozone. Now the Eurocrats want a 6% increase in the fees plus multi-millions more just to subsidise their pensions.
BTW isn't it wonderful to think how this country accepts foreigners as our head of state proving that this country isn't xenophobic and also isn't it strange that in an earlier post you were complaining how you've been treated by the citizens of this country because of your Polish grandfather and we should hang our heads with shame. Now here we have the same person complaining about our Queen and her hubby because they have German and Greek ancestry.
Despite the Queen changing her name from Saxe-Coburg to Windsor the Saxe-Coburgs have been in this country a long time, even before your grandfather, so I think it should be you hanging your head in shame

 

[JonnyG]

Sorry i have got a bit lost on, what people are complaining about, is it the right to claim benefits by EU immigrants? or is it EU immigrants are only coming here to claim Benefits? Or is it even though they come here and work and pay their taxes in this country they should not have the right to claim the same benefits any other person here can claim?
Apparently 250000 Germans are here,interesting that, when I have been reading how this country is over run by EU scroungers from the poorer regions of Europe! Inst the fact the biggest group of EU citizens here are Germans sort of contradicting all the bull concerning Europeans coming here from poorer countries and ripping us off?
Surely only a Moran would think the Germans would come here for anything other than for good payed jobs?
So now I am confused, who is actually ripping us off? If 100,000 poles are here and 99000 are working hard and paying their taxes, and 1000 of those poles are scroungers that would mean only 1% of poles were ripping us off. surely the 99% tax paying poles would more than cover their countrymen's debts to us?
If only those news reporters had tried harder at school with mathematics, then maybe they could write more factual news worthy articles................instead of bull that never rearly adds up.....

 

[Lutz]

Spot on Lutz, now we are getting somewhere. Now you see, because we have our own work shy, why we don't need to import them.
This country is quite capable of breeding it's own

.... or sending them elsewhere.
I don't claim to be work-shy, but although I was born in Germany and have lived there most of my life I am not German. Nevertheless I have always been treated as such. The only disadvantage, if I can call it that, is that I can't vote in the German national elections and I wouldn't be entitled to the full German pension if I move out of the EU. I can live with both.
ps: On the news here today there was talk of us having to expect approximately 800,000 migrants from eastern European EU countries during the first year after the restrictions are lifted. That puts the Daily Express' reports of 100,000 to the UK to shame.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

On the news here today there was talk of us having to expect approximately 800,000 migrants from eastern European EU countries during the first year after the restrictions are lifted. That puts the Daily Express' reports of 100,000 to the UK to shame.

In that case Lutz could you ask the German government to hold on to our 100,000 just long enough for us to get out of this dictatorship that the majority of this country doesn't want.
I don't understand about why we should be ashamed though

 

[Lutz]

Perhaps we have less to worry about here because German unemployment and welfare benefits are based on previous income. Unemployment benefit is 60% of previous monthly income for singles and 67% for all others. Welfare benefit which follows after a maximum of 15 months (slightly longer for persons over the age of 50) is less. If someone coming from eastern Europe has had no previous income in Germany, no benefit, it's as easy as that. In that respect EU citizens are no better or worse off than Germans.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Perhaps we have less to worry about here because German unemployment and welfare benefits are based on previous income. Unemployment benefit is 60% of previous monthly income for singles and 67% for all others. Welfare benefit which follows after a maximum of 15 months (slightly longer for persons over the age of 50) is less. If someone coming from eastern Europe has had no previous income in Germany, no benefit, it's as easy as that. In that respect EU citizens are no better or worse off than Germans.

So in that case the 800,000 you quoted were just passing through Germany on their way to the UK

If we, after May 1st, have to pay Eastern European migrants benefits without ever having worked here what makes Germany so special that they haven't got to pay them? If what you say is true I'm even more convinced they are just passing through to get to the UK.

 

[Lutz]

So in that case the 800,000 you quoted were just passing through Germany on their way to the UK

Judging by the smiley I take it that comment was not meant to be taken seriously. I am sure the vast majority will genuinely be looking for work.

If we, after May 1st, have to pay Eastern European migrants benefits without ever having worked here what makes Germany so special that they haven't got to pay them? If what you say is true I'm even more convinced they are just passing through to get to the UK.

All the EU is demanding is that migrants are not treated any differently to one's own citizens. If the local laws, over which the EU has no control, provide for the payment of benefits not based on the level of previous income then this is a weakness of the local law, not of the EU. Then you can't blame the EU, but your own government for laying down the terms and conditions of benefits in that way.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

If we, after May 1st, have to pay Eastern European migrants benefits without ever having worked here what makes Germany so special that they haven't got to pay them? If what you say is true I'm even more convinced they are just passing through to get to the UK.

All the EU is demanding is that migrants are not treated any differently to one's own citizens. If the local laws, over which the EU has no control, provide for the payment of benefits not based on the level of previous income then this is a weakness of the local law, not of the EU. Then you can't blame the EU, but your own government for laying down the terms and conditions of benefits in that way.

OK then I accept that Lutz but the benefit laws were put on the statute books for the benefit of UK citizens, not EU citizens. If the UK government now tried to change those laws they would be hauled before the European courts.
Now due to the Lisbon Treaty we are having to allow immigrants from the EU the same benefits without them paying a penny into the system. We are being punished for looking after our own people, many who have worked and fallen on hard times due to the recession.
Now the 800,000 going to Germany. Do you honestly believe that they are all looking for work and if so they will all find it? When they don't find work, which I believe the majority wont, where will they go? They have three choices. Stay where they are with no benefits. Go back home and try to find work again. Make their way to the UK where they will be housed, fed and given benefits which equate to more than they can earn working in their own countries.
In two years time Bulgaria and Romania will be given the same choices of freedom of movement and benefits without seeking work.
What I would like to know is what is cut off point? When does a country get saturated with people whilst other areas are now empty. There is now the crisis of Tunisians flooding into Europe competing with Somali's etc. These will soon be followed by Libyan's and Syrians.
Those (getting fewer every day) who believe that immigration and diversity are good for Europe and the UK fail to say when do you say enough is enough. The amount of living space in finite and we cannot keep on taking those from Eastern Europe, Middle East, all of Africa, West Indies, China etc. The UK is now the most heavily populated country in Europe now having overtaken the Netherlands and I cannot see much of a the future for this country. We all need space to live and when we live in a crowded country with no breathing space, different races/religions living in their own areas, it is a recipe for disaster.
Once we get out of this sodding club the better and if we take the same approach to immigration as Australia there could still be hope for the country.
Each day the reasons for leaving get greater and if we ever get out I will then die a happy man.

 

[Lutz]

If the UK government now tried to change those laws they would be hauled before the European courts.

Why? All the EU is asking for is that all its citizens are treated the equally. If UK laws are changed and apply to all, then that's OK, too.

The UK is now the most heavily populated country in Europe now having overtaken the Netherlands and I cannot see much of a the future for this country.

I presume you mean population density, not population in absolute numbers. But where did you that information from? The Daily Express perhaps? According to EU statistics, the population density of Great Britain is 243 people per square kilometer, but that of the Netherlands is 478. This brings the UK into third place after Belgium with 339, but even Germany isn't lagging far behind in fourth with 231, bringing it practically on a par with the UK.

 

[Dustydog]

And here's some interesting statistics.
Britain is the fifth highest contributor to the EU budget, with £6.7  billion, beaten by France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
Poland contributes £2.4 billion.
Each Briton pays £110 in contributions to the EU but loses out by £32 in benefits in return.
Spain is the only one of the top five contributors where the return is greater than the contribution.
In Poland, every person contributes £63 and gains £166 in return subsidies. So Gagga it looks like Poland isn't too bad, granted it's not somewhere I wish to live.
The EU’s cost to Britons in 2009 was up by £266 million, or £17.44 per household, as bills for running the Union continued to increase due to the rising costs of the new powers and institutions created by the Lisbon Treaty.
Britain has also been hit by a deal negotiated in 2005 by Tony Blair that has seen the value of an annual rebate from the EU, won by Margaret Thatcher in 1984, fall significantly over the past two years. Nigel Farage,
Ukip’s European leader, argued that the EU “club” was not worth belonging to when the cost of Brussels regulation was pushing up “membership fees”. “If you were paying a £440-a-year subscription to a health club, you would expect to get fitter or you would leave,” he said.
However I view the stats and figures it is very clear I'm getting fleeced and paying for someone else whether they be a migrant or immigrant and that's before I account for the other part of my income which is paying for those with no income or who cannot or will not work .
Can someone please tell where there is a fat cat or fat dog island I can go to and avoid all the onerous taxes.

 

[Lutz]

Britain is the fifth highest contributor to the EU budget, with £6.7  billion, beaten by France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

That's not surprising really considering the relative gross national products of each of those countries. In fact, on that basis, the UK should be a close third after France. The Spanish GNP is only just over half of that of the UK.
However, having said that, I agree that the contributions, in general, are too high for what each country is getting out and there needs to be some serious auditing done do uncover inefficiencies, but I would rather see it done from within.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

If the UK government now tried to change those laws they would be hauled before the European courts.

Why? All the EU is asking for is that all its citizens are treated the equally. If UK laws are changed and apply to all, then that's OK, too.

Again we will have to agree to disagree Lutz. It cannot be equal if you come here and claim the same benefits as any other UK citizen as soon as you land in the country whereas if I go to Germany I cannot claim anything. That's not equality and that's why the majority see ourselves as UK citizens and not European citizens. At the moment we have still got our own sovereignty despite it being eroded on a daily basis.
BTW I read that the UK are above Spain in EU contributions and Spain are next although they draw benefits from the EU whereas Germany, France, Italy and the UK do not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union
Look at the net benefit

 

[Lutz]

Again we will have to agree to disagree Lutz. It cannot be equal if you come here and claim the same benefits as any other UK citizen as soon as you land in the country whereas if I go to Germany I cannot claim anything.

But a German in a similar position who hasn't earned anything won't be able to claim anything in Germany either so you would be treated equally.
What you understand under equality goes one stage further and would require all laws and all taxes to be the same in every country of the EU. Whether that is achievable or even desirable is quite another story. Anyway, I'm sure that nobody is ready for that yet and it is certainly not the intent of the EU.
Equality doesn't even go that far within the UK, re free prescriptions in Scotland.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Equality doesn't even go that far within the UK, re free prescriptions in Scotland.

That's not inequality Lutz, that is democracy.
The Scottish assembly has a budget and it is up to them how they spend it by their elected representatives. University tuition fees is another but someone from England cannot go to Scotland and get free education or prescriptions as an immigrant can walk into this country and immediately be entitled to benefits.
Although we in England get other benefits that the Scots don't it's not all equal. For a start the Scots have more MPs per head of population in Parliament than us. They have their own Parliament whereas the English don't which means Scots can vote and make decisions on English matters but not the other way round. There is also the out of date Barnett formula. This determines how much is spent per head of population. This is how it works out ..... [*]England £7,121[*]Scotland £8,623[*]Wales £8,139[*]Northern Ireland £9,385

The complaint is that kids in England will have to pay tuition fees which go to the exchequer. This money is then shared by the Scottish universities.
So there you have it Lutz. The English are fighting on two fronts. At least we do have a solution to our home grown problems though so that can be sorted through Parliament but until we leave the EU we cannot sort out our problems with that institution because in that regards we no longer govern ourselves

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

I see Germany is at it again Lutz by sending us migrants they don't want

The first wave has already hit Britain if the state of my car this morning is anything to go by.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/243170/Drivers-warned-as-pollen-cloud-menace-heads-for-UK

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

More for Lutz to peruse on.

This is interesting especially coming from a Minister who is a rarity in the government by being pro Europe. He's also known to be a Minister who believes in soft sentencing on prisoners. Somehow after the next cabinet shuffle I think he will be put out to grass. Almost guaranteed.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/243185/Kenneth-Clarke-We-must-curb-power-of-Euro-judges

Her's some more on why we should get out

Sorry about the ads.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/243184/Mad-human-rights-laws-are-costing-Britons-9bn-a-year

 

[Lutz]

It had to come from the Daily Express.
But the European Court of Human Rights has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It is a completely separate organisation belonging to the Council of Europe of which the UK itself is a founder member and not all member states belong to the EU.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

It had to come from the Daily Express.
But the European Court of Human Rights has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It is a completely separate organisation belonging to the Council of Europe of which the UK itself is a founder member and not all member states belong to the EU.

This isn't from the Express Lutz.

The European Court of Justice
Relationship between the European Court of Justice and European Court of Human Rights
The Court of Justice of the European Union (ECJ) is not related to the European Court of Human Rights. However, since all EU states are members of the Council of Europe and have signed the Convention on Human Rights, there are concerns about consistency in case law between the two courts. Therefore, the ECJ refers to the case-law of the Court of Human Rights and treats the Convention on Human Rights as though it was part of the EU's legal system. Even though its members have joined, the European Union itself has not, as it did not have competence to do so under previous treaties. However, EU institutions are bound under article 6 of the EU treaty of Nice to respect human rights under the Convention. Furthermore, since the Treaty of Lisbon has taken effect on 1 December 2009, the EU is expected to sign the Convention. This would make the Court of Justice bound by the judicial precedents of the Court of Human Rights and thus be subject to its human rights law, resolving this way the issue of conflicting case law.

I rest my case m'lud.

Also.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-13220801

From the Mail for a change ..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1373210/Foreign-arrests-double-just-THREE-years-immigration-soars.html

More reason to get out

 

[Lutz]

I see Germany is at it again Lutz by sending us migrants they don't want

Germany is keen to get more specalised workers from eastern Europe. There is a desperate shortage here and some branches can't wait for the relaxation of controls, so the risk of sending migrants on is pretty remote. The only reservations that have been expressed is that they could potentially put pressure on wages if some form of control is not exercised, as these migrants will be willing to work for less.

The article from the Daily Mirror is not specific regarding the origins of the foreigners arrested. The vast majority involved in Germany are not from EU countries at all, but from countries like Albania, Russia, Serbia or further afield from various south American countries.

 

[JonnyG]

Well I think we should look at the history of the UK and the EU.
The British tried to disrupt the formation of the EU during the sixties, they started by trying to bring the close bond that had been formed between France and Germany, into bad standing Fortunately for all, in this we didn't succeed.
We then started EFTA as a side show to the EEC. And we were the dominate party a'la old Empire and we bloke our treaty obligations to our EFTA partners on more than one occasion.This didn't go down too well with them, and they started to look for other and more profitable markets for their products. Namely the EEC.
Britain who was slowly losing her Empire, her competitiveness and her foreign markets, was at a cross roads. We were no longer a nation to be reckon with and we had no Empire to foot our bills and on top of this we had vast war loans to maintain. We now had to work for our living!!
We approached the EEC for membership and we were refused "outright" The other EEC member knew that Britain was no more than an old nagging woman, prepared only to dominate rather that work as a team.Final after much negation and humbleness we were allowed to join.
AND WE HAVE BEEN NAGGING SINCE.
Of cause leave the EU, they didn't want us anyway, but those that protest against the EU.
Should give their wisdoms on how we are going to live with out this stable market and how we will maintain our living standard with out the 500,000,000 potential customer, because that's what it's all about, customers!
We never hear the captains of industry nagging about the EU. Because their wisdom is pro EU.
Politicians don't give a monkeys fart about the voter when it comes to commerces and employment. The EU doesn't make Britains legislation, they just give guidelines on which legislation should be based.
So leaving the EU, this will satisfy the anti EU lobby, but they will probable find something else to nag about. Maybe something more constructive,like the weather!!

Unfortunately most EU sceptics seem to have a great love of nationalistic romanticism and bravado and a general ignorance of the subject EU.Their writings show that they have no hands-on knowledge or understanding of the captains of industry, social affairs and the well-being of society in general.
If we have a deficit on our trade then we are the only ones to blame. If the imported value of goods is higher that the value of exported goods, then there will be a negative trade deficit. Nothing to do with the EU. Either export more, this means working harder and making "rational" and not romantic decisions, or import less, which means a fall in the living standard. We could of cause go for "more- broke" that we are now and commit financial suicide, by leaving the EU.

Not my words but they will do. LB I have no idea if the majority of UK citizens are for or against the EU, unlike you i cannot find anything that would back up your statement concerning "the vast majority are against the EU "

The thing i seem to be unable to find concerning leaving the EU from any of your writings is how as a country will we be better off? OK so billions here and there can be saved on this that and the other sure ,but that's not much good if we end up 100s of billions worse off when it comes to the nations income! Unemployment would jump up almost immediately, so the billions you saved with your earlier comments would be sucked up by the British unemployed, and the government would get even less in taxes to run the country alas with major industries pulling out and coaxed over to set up in the EU, this is something that most diffinately would happen.
How do you intend to make up the huge short comings that would clearly happen in our coffers.
Its all so easy to be critical of the EU and go on about pulling out, but it seems you and people like you have no real idea of the consequences that would follow.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

LB I have no idea if the majority of UK citizens are for or against the EU, unlike you i cannot find anything that would back up your statement concerning "the vast majority are against the EU "

Read the press, watch the media (except the biased left wing BBC), get out and talk to people more. Apart from one or two, who happen to be members of this forum, I haven't spoken or heard anyone who is pro EU. By this I'm not talking about the Liberal Wets like Cleggover, or the odd senile politician like Kenneth Clarke who is well past his sell by date. I'm talking about everyday people and if you think that by leaving the EU we will sink then you need to abandon ship

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Now the 800,000 going to Germany. Do you honestly believe that they are all looking for work and if so they will all find it? When they don't find work, which I believe the majority wont, where will they go? They have three choices. Stay where they are with no benefits. Go back home and try to find work again. Make their way to the UK where they will be housed, fed and given benefits which equate to more than they can earn working in their own countries.
In two years time Bulgaria and Romania will be given the same choices of freedom of movement and benefits without seeking work.
What I would like to know is what is cut off point? When does a country get saturated with people whilst other areas are now empty. There is now the crisis of Tunisians flooding into Europe competing with Somali's etc. These will soon be followed by Libyan's and Syrians.
Those (getting fewer every day) who believe that immigration and diversity are good for Europe and the UK fail to say when do you say enough is enough. The amount of living space in finite and we cannot keep on taking those from Eastern Europe, Middle East, all of Africa, West Indies, China etc.

Strange, I still haven't had an answer on the above. I'd love to know when those who love diversity and immigration think their country can no longer take any more. What's more, when this is realised how do they intend to stop it

 

[Lutz]

Strange, I still haven't had an answer on the above. I'd love to know when those who love diversity and immigration think their country can no longer take any more. What's more, when this is realised how do they intend to stop it

The reply to which you refer mentions Tunisians, Somalis, Libyans and Syrians, none of which are EU citizens, so I felt no need to respond.
Regarding potential influx of EU citizens from eastern European countries, if Germany with its similar population density has no problem with 800,000 then why should the UK not be able to absorb 100,000 (always assuming that the numbers are correct anyway)?

Read the press, watch the media (except the biased left wing BBC), .....

As if the Daily Express is any less biased.

 

[JonnyG]

Hi LB, now your answer is not factual is it? you are merely going by your own limited experience and of corse paper reports that clearly are Anti EU, so hardly proof of A majority being against staying in the EU, but I would have been very interested in your opinion as to exactly how our economy would benefit?I would be interested in you trying to disprove what i have said regarding how our economy would be heavily hit and the massive loss of jobs that would follow and the 50 to 60% increase in benefit claims that would follow for possible half to a full decade.
In fact you too might actually be a big loser financially if we did leave the EU. and yes i know you have retired but hard times mean hard measures

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

The reply to which you refer mentions Tunisians, Somalis, Libyans and Syrians, none of which are EU citizens, so I felt no need to respond.
Regarding potential influx of EU citizens from eastern European countries, if Germany with its similar population density has no problem with 800,000 then why should the UK not be able to absorb 100,000 (always assuming that the numbers are correct anyway)?

Typical Liberal, still not answered the parts I highlighted

OK I'll ask again. In your mind what is the cut off point? When is Europe full? When do we pull up the drawbridge? When do we say enough is enough?
I accept that the Tunisians, Somalis, Libyans and Syrians aren't from E.U. countries but neither are "the vast majority involved in Germany are not from EU countries at all, but from countries like Albania, Russia, Serbia or further afield from various south American countries" that you quoted.
When they get here and claim asylum they will either vanish or cost the country billions by appealing against their human rights and once it gets to the ECHR they almost always win their case. Only a minority of those who get here actually get deported.
Even from here at home I can hear the sphincter muscles twitching of the Immigration Ministers of the Schengen countries. Panic measures are already setting in.
So once again I ask, how many more do we take in before you accept that Europe is full?
As I said before, living space is finite.