C&CC -v- 4x4's

[CliveV]

Happy to oblige LB - but I cannot help feeling that had you seen fit to look at the GLASS website for example you could have seen a far better description under the "What is greenlaning" heading.

With the benefit of pictures as well!

As for the "tangent" - why so sensitive? It is clear that you are passionate about Steam Trains and believe me I can understand that. The fact that you feel the need to justify points about what you do speaks volumes.

All I asked was for you to consider an analogy.

But you have to admit, like all hobbies, they are done for the love of the thing. You cannot hope to justify what makes your hobby important to you on the basis of how "necessary" it is.

 

[Ken_5040834]

Before you cancel, you migth want to write to the magazine challenging him on one topic.

My wife and I were in Italy a couple of years ago and David Bellamy got on the train with is wife.

We started talking and he has a house in Northern Tuscany that he visits as often as he can....travelling on planes which, as you know, cause far more problems with their exhaust fumes!

 

[sparkes]

Ken

I have mailed him and tried to get my feelsing over. I have asked him to give the industry a break and resign

Steve

 

[sparkes]

chrissie

I owe you an apology. I did not answer your comments very politely last night and I should have discussed the issue with a little less aggressiveness.

Sorry, will try harder next time, I am a little short tempered at the moment

Steve

 

[Stephen_5077753]

For goodness sake, all that Mr Bellamy was saying is that instead of driving you 4x4 down a green lane and destroying it over time the time honoured system of '1x1', in other words WALK down the green lane. He wasnt really having a dig at them as we normally expect, just saying get out of the car and walk more and hopefully enjoy more.

Steve (x-trail owner)

 

[sparkes]

Stephen

Please read the thread before commenting. You will see that the main discussion is about people who are unable to walk into the countryside.

Steve (bloody great discovery owner) (oh, and currently disabled)

 

[CliveV]

Stephen

With two large dogs we walk a lot and enjoy it.

The issue is the status of BOATS as Byways Open to All Traffic that makes up just 5% of ALL paths, bridleways RUPPs and BOATS.

The Ramblers have 100% access but now want to deny the tiny 5% that is currently the untarmaced road network.

When Bellamy goes on about 4x4's ruining the peace of the countryside - even if it happened it can only happen legally on 5% !!

Illegal "Off-Roading" is another issue and GLASS and other responsible organisations are helping to stamp this out by reporting illegal activity.

If Green Laning is banned as is being mooted then of course I will not break the law - (but my holidays will be in France or Spain) However, such a ban will simply leave the countryside wide open for illegal use by idiots who care nothing for it.

 

[cris_408518]

I have 4 dogs and I understand that the ramblers also want to ban dogs on countryside paths and walks.

Most people we meet love to see out Spaniels working the fields and paths and they get photographed and made a fuss of. They have never caught anything as they get whistled to order if they spook a bird or Rabbit and are probably do daft to do anything if they came face to face with a bunny or pheasant!

The odd time that somebody takes acception to them it is normaly some bobble hatted gortex clad type with nice shiny map pouch and sat nav fresh from city living and trendy wine bar country and new labour expertise on the countryside and the environment.

 

[sparkes]

In our local paper, the RA used to advertise walks with bold type saying no dogs allowed. they now have to not advertise their walks as it appears wherever they start and no matter what time, they seem to coincide with the local K9 owners yearly get together ;-)

It is so funny to see all the dogs playing around people who are so mad but dare not get upset for fear of the dogs seeing the aggression.

They even complained to the council about the dogs, but the council reply was that the place where they start are park land and as long as the dogs are under control, there is nothing they could do.

The arguments and stupidity still goes on here, nearly 2 yrs after it started.

The easiest was to allow the countryside to be a peaceful place for all to enjoy would be to outlaw the RA. Then common sense would prevail and more people would be inclined to use the countryside without fear of being accosted for taking the dog, letting the kids run free or driving on legal rights of way. Hell, it could even reduce the illegal use and dumping in the countryside with more people around.

 

[cris_408518]

One of our dogs is very small but has the bark of an Alsation.

A boble hat shushed at her in disgust as she walked by, she is scared of strangers and her defence is to run up to people that worry her and bark very loudly.

She scurried away from the guy and his partners and then ran behind him and woofed at his heels as loudly as she could and then ran!

I swiftly retrieved my whistle and called her to order as the guy ran for his life before he turned to see his friends corpsed with laughter and the little trouble maker. I gave him a telling off for shushing at my dog and tried not to laugh.

I am naughty but I just can't stand the attitudes of some!

 

[SteveW77]

The Ramblers as an organisation is not asking for a ban on dogs in the country side. Some and I repeat some local groups ask members not to bring dogs, as they have members who are afraid of dogs. This does not seem to be unreasonable,as they do also have days when people can take thier dogs along. There is of course nothing to stop anybody following on behind an organised Ramblers walk, after all it is a free country.

Steve W

 

[cris_408518]

Steve.

I can't find the article but within the past couple of weeks I have seen talk that rambler groups are asking for a ban on dogs.

I'm sorry that I can't find it, but it was in print!

Groups of ramblers walking together probably do more than their fare share of damage to the countryside. I am amazed at the numerous ramblers I've come across in recent years who don't know where to scale a farm gate and show little respect for farmers produce at times.

As a child we were taught to walk around fields and over the hinged side of gates.

And I find ramblers with I PODS etc another mystery!

But live and let live !

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

I've just done a Google about the R.A. and found the following...

From their website

Dogs. Policy on dogs varies. Some Groups allow them on all walks, some on certain walks with the agreement of the leader, and a few ban dogs entirely. If you do take a dog, please keep it under close control, especially on farmland, and on a short lead near livestock.

other parts go on to say that Landowners may ban dogs because of lambing, grouse breeding time etc.

Some parts of Dartmoor have also got dog bans due to the disturbance of otters.

.....so you can see that maybe the local R.A. has no choice in whether to ban dogs. There are numerous articles where the R.A. are fighting to stop dog bans by various landowners or authorities.

I have no vested interest in the R.A. or have never/or intend to become a member. I just thought it would be interesting to see their view as nobody in this forum is a member of that organisation to answer back to the allegations.

 

[SteveW77]

People may have been taught to go round the outside of fields to prevent damage to crops and this would seem to be a reasonable thing to do.In fact it is exactly the wrong thing to do, you must follow the definitive line of the footpath, anything other than that leaves you open to charges of trespass. This is why organised walking parties may well be seen walking throught growing crops. The point being that the farmer is illegaly planting over a public footpath.

Not all Ramblers are bloody minded, some just enjoy a peaceful walk in the country along pathways that they and anybody else has a perfect legal right to do.

Steve W

 

[CliveV]

Two summers ago I was walking our dogs - one an elderly GSDX and the other a rather boisterous Retriever - at Ogdens North in the New Forest.

Round the corner came a real site - a couple dressed in what I can only describe as Safari Suits!

Pockets everywhere - Olive green complete with matching Olive Green wide brimmed hats (that had false leopard skin bands!) sat "rakishly" on their heads. Struggling to keep a straight face we walked by with a friendly "Hi".

No problems initially but my over friendly Retriever brushed past the lady and deposited a lovely long strand of saliva on her trousers.

What happened next had to be seen to be believed - she ran around in circles saying "Oh my God" repeatedly, whilst the man marched up to me and demanded what I was going to do about it and threatening to report me for having an uncontrolled dog.

I just laughed and he called me a "f***ing b**er" - which was so bizarre I laughed even more!

I wonder if they know that the Peaty stuff they were walking on was 90% Horse Poo!

 

[MONKEY1]

As one who doesn't usually agree with Clive V on anything (it seems) I have to say his post above is spot on. I for one have no intention of green laneing however as he points the objectives of the organisation are sensible and designed to be as accommodating to others needs as one can.

Near me there is a local wood which was unusable (very dense - foliage) when the electricity co put pylons through it they created a track of sorts which then locals then started to walk their dogs children through.

However recently their has been a number of youths on trail bikes and persons with modified 4x4 making a right mess - the youths are accused at driving at speed and the 4x4 have created such deep ruts and erosion that you clearly cant enjoy a walk - a climb through a 2 feet deep rut is more what called for.

The problem is the likes of Clive et al are blamed for something they have not taken part in (the track doesn't appear on any maps) I believe that everyone has a right to the countryside it's one of the best playgrounds around and whether you choose to walk, ride a bike/horse or drive a car at 4mph but it surely is most about respect for each other and what you actually on.

Monkeys Husband

 

[Tony A.]

Steve W,

walking through crops is idiotic, It may be the case that the farmer has rerouted the right of way.and if your map isnt fully up to date you wouldn`t know,

The laws of trespass state that you have to have caused damage in order to be guilty. and what about your right to roam surley that would cover anyone walking around the edge of a field rather than through a growing crop. I`m afraid that following the "definitive line " in my kneck of the woods would leave you open to a thick ear, or a steel toecapped boot.

Using common sense when walking would be a more sensible tac than doing what you have a "perfect legal right to do. you would then get the peaceful walk you crave, and not uneccessarily upset farmers.

Tony A.

 

[Icemaker]

only just read this thread as ive not been on the site for a while but it was nice to see that i am not alone, i read the infamous belamy article the day my mag arrived and rang the club the very same morning to cancel my membership, the lady i spoke to asked my reason and sounded resigned to the fact that i was not the first to cancell due to this article, i was not just anoyed at bellamy's outburst against 4x4 vehicles but was also very annoyed at his referal to "people towing units loaded with all the luxuries of home" as if we are also ignorant due to our want for a better life.

We are fortunate enough to live very close to the pennine area and within 5 minuites walking can be in the heart of the peak district, quite regular we will walk the dogs through edale and up in to the hills and if its sunny we will stop and have a picnic by one of the rivers, unfortunately we have rangers who take there "job" a little too serious and we have had occasion where they have ordered us out of the area becouse the dogs have been in the river for a drink and are not on the lead. i fully agree that dogs should be on leads but there are no animals in this area at all it is a public right of way and the dogs and my kids who where in the river with them where doing no harm at all.

My other experiance of ramblers gone mad was when i took my son mountain biking on jacobs ladder near edale and we had a group of ramblers who stood 8 wide on the path to stop us getting past, when i politely asked if we could get past they snorted and spat obsenities and loudly proclaimed that we should not be on our bikes and we where destroying the peace. when i pointed out that we did not have engines just pedals and that our tyres did not have spikes on them to damage the path like theire walking sticks do and that bicycles are only allowed on 20 % of the pennine paths they became even more annoyed and we made a quick and quiet exit.

In summary you will never remove the threat that this group of people make, they will get 4x4's banned they will then start on dogs and bikes, they will then i am sure start on another form of leisure they do not agree with possibly caravanning, you know those big white ugly blots on the landscape that reflect the sun and spoil theire walk!! lol. any way rant over, its great to be back, hope every one has a great year in the vans again, we have had 4 breaks already this year and plenty more to come. just going for a ride up that lane on my sons quad bike, should be fun hope i meet a rambler.

 

[sparkes]

4??

I have only had the 1 break this year. Next one is easter. I am so jealous

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

4??

I have only had the 1 break this year. Next one is easter. I am so jealous

Dont you count your leg as a break Steve?????

 

[SteveW77]

Tony A

Whether walking through crops is foolish or not is not the argument, It's what the law requires.The implied threat of violence to anyone doing it in your neck of the woods is a very typical response from people who have lost both the moral argument and the legal point. Just as a point of interest,I own land that has a public path crossing it, so I have had some experience of dealing with local authorities on this kind of issue.

Steve W

 

[Tony A.]

steve W,

It is not what the law requires. I noticed that you avioded comment on the possible altered right of way and indeed the laws of trespass,also your much publicised right to roam.

There is no moral argument to lose when dealing with people who are willing to destroy crops rather than walk around the edge of a feild as the right to roam would commend, and then argue that "this is the way shown on the map"it borders on vandalism.

The implied threat of violence would be typical response of a hard working man, who has spent a lot of time and effort, not to mention money, growing a food crop (for not a lot of profit), only to see it trampled by a bunch of walkers who cant see sense for principals.

Tony A.

 

[CliveV]

Yes but for goodness sake Steve! Look at what you are saying!

You seem to think it is acceptable for a group of walkers to destroy crops which are another mans property and livelihood just because the map says you can!

The same sort of arrogance persuades our local farmers to place the most obnoxious human hating beast they have in said field with footpath across it.

The warning signs get those bobble hats wobbling!

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Whatever principles I believed in I couldn't walk through the middle of a field and damage crops, even if the farmer was absent. I would have to walk around the edge of the field and if that was wrong then face the consequences.

 

[sparkes]

LB, I think thats true of every reasonable person. Anyone who damages crops when an alternative route is available should be done for walking without due care and leaving their brains behind.

This is another case of the RA syndrone that states "we are right and will do our best to make your life hell just to prove it"

I honestly think that with the right to roam being available, anyone who damages crops (even if a path is marked) should be made to compensate the farmer.