Crack in panel!

[Buckman]

I am sure that the caravan makers will reimburse the dealers for claims they have to pay under the CRA as otherwise the dealers would not deal with them or go bankrupt. The warranty point is simply a ruse to avoid their responsibilities and shows up their lack of integrity.
the cracked panels are expensive to replace and must have cost Eldiss and the others substantial sums in replacing them. The problem does seem less acute now and I suspect the newer panels have been modified,

Unfortunately that is where you are wrong as people with 2019, 2020 and even 2021 caravans are reporting cracks. In some cases they re very minor like ours and in other cases it is a gaping hole. A Google for "Caravan ABS cracks" throws up loads of results.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am sure that the caravan makers will reimburse the dealers for claims they have to pay under the CRA as otherwise the dealers would not deal with them or go bankrupt.

That is just an assumption, and I know that it does not always happen. Being a retailer does expose you to this dilemma, and that is one of the business risks retailer have to consider, and why some retailers will as a matter of course fight claims under the CRA if there is any chance it may be dismissed.

 

[Buckman]

That is just an assumption, and I know that it does not always happen. Being a retailer does expose you to this dilemma, and that is one of the business risks retailer have to consider, and why some retailers will as a matter of course fight claims under the CRA if there is any chance it may be dismissed.

I have to agree to an extent. Dealers don't like doing warranty work as the manufacturer pays them a lot less than what a customer would pay for the same job and the job could be sub standard which is why many of us return for the same fault. I think I may have visual proof of this practice on a previous caravan.

However if the customer has a reasonable case under CRA 2015, the dealer would probably cave in before it went to court, but leave it to the last moment. Our concern would be the standard of repair at that point as dealer may try and cut corners to get the job done.

 

[ProfJohnL]

However if the customer has a reasonable case under CRA 2015, the dealer would probably cave in before it went to court, but leave it to the last moment. Our concern would be the standard of repair at that point as dealer may try and cut corners to get the job done.

I would hope that caravan dealers should be fully aware of the implications of the C0nsumer Rights Act, and especially that if they do undertake repair work, it has to be of merchantable quality and fit for purpose, otherwise they are likely to be faced with a customer rejecting the repair, and claiming a refund, leaving the dealer with a caravan they know is going to be trouble further down the line. It's simply not in their interests to do substandard work. - though I suspect some might not yet appreciate risk to their profits.

 

[Dustydog]

What a shame you now have to deal with this issue especially after having next to no use over the last two years.

Bailey as previously reported had numerous cracked ABS panels over a decade ago. No wonder they now use other materials.
Swift and Bailey have in the past taken caravans back to their factory for repairs. A possible alternative route for you with Elddis?

You too have seen the numerous Elddis Owners Forum problems with the ABS panels. That may assist your case that your panel contained an inherent latent defect at point of manufacture.
Bailey’s previous problems were primarily an installation one where the ABS panels were fastened with drive in screws without pre drilling the holes. Remember the early De Havilland Comet? Failure to punch rivets through without pre drilled holes immediately introduced stresses resulting in premature failure.

I am sure you will pursue this matter as far as the Law allows. Thanks for keeping us posted.
Good luck.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...
Swift and Bailey have in the past taken caravans back to their factory for repairs. A possible alternative route for you with Elddis?
....

From previous posts I believe it seems that Elddis have washed their hands on this case, so there is no route back to Elddis as you suggest. The CRA only empowers action against the seller so unless the manufacturer sells direct, the buck stops with the seller.

Probably for obvious reasons, if Elddis were to capitulate and cover the repair/replacement under their warranty scheme, it would imply they accept responsibility for the fault, Whilst morally that would be great thing ut it would be financial suicide, because it would open up the floodgate for complaints from other owners with the same problem.

I can't condone the manufacturers stance on this subject, but the law is very clear:- It is the sellers responsibility to the retail customer to ensure the goods they sell are free from design, material or workmanship defects regardless of how responsible the manufacturer may seem to be in the eyes of the end user.

 

[Robert_374373903]

Our Topaz is 22 years old now and around six years ago whilst it had just been serviced I spoke about the cracks on the back panel. He said as it is ABS they do get like that but rarely leak . After each service I still ask, and he said there still is no damp at the back. Maybe the polish I use is penetrating into the cracks. I do not know. The worst ones are on the protruding lower half which is hollow to the inside of caravan.

 

[RogerL]

Our Topaz is 22 years old now and around six years ago whilst it had just been serviced I spoke about the cracks on the back panel. He said as it is ABS they do get like that but rarely leak . After each service I still ask, and he said there still is no damp at the back. Maybe the polish I use is penetrating into the cracks. I do not know. The worst ones are on the protruding lower half which is hollow to the inside of caravan.

The rear ABS panel on many caravans is outside of a conventional alloy/foam/ply sandwich panel so a crack won't necessarily allow damp into the structure.

 

[Dustydog]

Nev

The rear ABS panel on many caravans is outside of a conventional alloy/foam/ply sandwich panel so a crack won't necessarily allow damp into the structure.

i discovered three small cracks either side four years ago. 1mm stop holes drilled. Filled with Capt Tolleys. No leaks or damp. Cracks haven’t grown but close up are visible. Capt Tolleys applied annually. Mine is 15 , Buckman’s 4. So maybe a bit early for a cheap diy fix😉

 

[Buckman]

I am still wondering why the need to replace the interior wall and ceiling boards and also the front skylight? Neither of the boards are stained. On checking internally the area underneath the crack with my cheap probe damp meter no damp was detected.

 

[woodsieboy]

Probably find that to replace the affected parts, the repairer will damage or destroy the existing interior wall and ceiling boards, so will need replacing anyway.

 

[Dustydog]

Probably find that to replace the affected parts, the repairer will damage or destroy the existing interior wall and ceiling boards, so will need replacing anyway.

There’s an article on another site describing how to separate bonded panels. Exactly as you describe 👍👍

 

[Buckman]

Probably find that to replace the affected parts, the repairer will damage or destroy the existing interior wall and ceiling boards, so will need replacing anyway.

Other places can do the repair to the crack for about £600, but dealer wants £2660.
I need to read things more carefully. It just occurred to me that the dealer has split the quote into two jobs. Top part is the cost of £2078 for doing the damp repair only and this is 20 hours labour.
As said neither the wall or ceiling boards are stained. I have asked the dealer for a damp reading in that area as my cheap meter never registered anything.
The second half to repair the crack itself there is 6 hours labour. £114 for the roof rail and sealant seems rather excessive?
I think that the way forward may be to have a temporary repair done to stop further ingress and then to have the caravan checked again by the AWS technician who are local to us as something does not seem right.

 

[Buckman]

Here si an interesting thread where the poster did all the work themselves and I think it shows that there is not necessity to replace internal panels.
Hopefully mods will allow this LINK.

 

[Buckman]

I have just been reminded about an issue we had with our front panel about two years ago. If you open the locker door and look into the corners there is a pieces of angled steel which is riveted into place holding the front panel to the bulkhead.
All the rivets on the nearside angle bar snapped off and I am thinking this may have added stress to the front panel at the time which may have then started the crack due to additional stress on the front panel. A repair was done and screws fitted instead of rivets.
Also when new we had constant issues with the front skylight surround on the offside moving away from the ceiling board. The picture belows is what it looked like after the third attempt at a repair. They eventually fixed it permanently, but not sure how.
Just snatching at straws as at the moment we cannot afford to pay the £2660 or never the £9306.

 

[otherclive]

I have just been reminded about an issue we had with our front panel about two years ago. If you open the locker door and look into the corners there is a pieces of angled steel which is riveted into place holding the front panel to the bulkhead.
All the rivets on the nearside angle bar snapped off and I am thinking this may have added stress to the front panel at the time which may have then started the crack due to additional stress on the front panel. A repair was done and screws fitted instead of rivets.
Also when new we had constant issues with the front skylight surround on the offside moving away from the ceiling board. The picture belows is what it looked like after the third attempt at a repair. They eventually fixed it permanently, but not sure how.
Just snatching at straws as at the moment we cannot afford to pay the £2660 or never the £9306.

View attachment 3192

Certainly it could all be indicative of a weakness in the design and material fabrication. So no its not clutching at straws. If it should go to Small Claims Court it could aid your case, It is something that you should include in your submission to the dealer, and you never know it may help sway Eldiss.

 

[Buckman]

Certainly it could all be indicative of a weakness in the design and material fabrication. So no its not clutching at straws. If it should go to Small Claims Court it could aid your case, It is something that you should include in your submission to the dealer, and you never know it may help sway Eldiss.

Thanks for that reassurance and could be worth pursuing. I totally forgot about those two issues. I am sure I still have the emails regarding both the issues.

Found the email dated 28.07.20202 and it states "I have spoken to our engineers about this issue and they have advised me that they have seen this before. They think the screws have worked loose during travel. When the van comes in in October they can refit these for you. The metal strip is also additionally held on with sealant and this we believe will be sufficient for you to carry on and use until your visit in October."
They were rivets and not screws.

 

[Raywood]

That is just an assumption, and I know that it does not always happen. Being a retailer does expose you to this dilemma, and that is one of the business risks retailer have to consider, and why some retailers will as a matter of course fight claims under the CRA if there is any chance it may be dismissed.

I accept that it is an assumption but if the retailers were left to pay claims running into thousands of pounds and the manufacturer did not support them they would soon find a new company to deal with. If you represent a company you do expect them to back you with this sort of problem and if they do not I am pretty confident the dealer could sue them (subject to any contract terms) as the potential loss to the dealer is easily foreseeable.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I accept that it is an assumption but if the retailers were left to pay claims running into thousands of pounds and the manufacturer did not support them they would soon find a new company to deal with. If you represent a company you do expect them to back you with this sort of problem and if they do not I am pretty confident the dealer could sue them (subject to any contract terms) as the potential loss to the dealer is easily foreseeable.

You are certainly correct about a dealers wanting change brands - and yes it has happened for this very reason! and no I won't disclose which ones where I know it's happened.

Some dealers have had to claim on product liability insurance.

 

[Dustydog]

Prof
Did you mean their Product Guarantee Insurance?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof
Did you mean their Product Guarantee Insurance?

Could be either it depends what cover they have taken out.

 

[Buckman]

Regarding the 1 year warranty on the panels I have been advised that Section 31 of the CRA 2015 over rides any warranty a trader may impose. Makes interesting reading.

Also mentioned was the possibility of accidental damage due to rough roads or striking a pothole and that there is a possibility of an insurance claim. We are aware that are the service we only did the one trip to a CL and can prove it as the mileage was recorded for the trip to and from the CL. The beginning fo the road was very bad due to HGV depot 1/2 miles down the road. We are with the CAMC for insurance.

lastly the dealer states that the damp ingress reading is approximately 25% so not very high. Again I wonder why the necessity to exchange wall and ceiling boards which are not showing any signs of damp!

It is beginning to look as if the dealer does not want to do the job and is quoting very high hoping that we will go elsewhere?

 

[DaveA1]

It is beginning to look as if the dealer does not want to do the job and is quoting very high hoping that we will go elsewhere?

I thought that when first read the Quote.

 

[Buckman]

I thought that when first read the Quote.

The dealer could be in for a bit of a shock as I may have proof that the ABS panels are not fit for purpose and that the dealer may be responsible for replacing the panels at their cost.

I forgot about the fact that two of the many other reasons we rejected our previous 2016 Buccaneer Cruiser caravan after 11 months was because the front panel cracked within less than a week after delivery It was replaced under warranty. Then the rear panel cracked followed by the new replacement front panel cracking again. One crack around 4-5 inches the other over a foot long. I still have all the documentation and pictures from the previous caravan!

In addition, when the front panel was replaced neither interior wall boards or ceiling boards were replaced. Considering there is only 25% damp I am sure that it can be dried out!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Don't build your hopes up too much:- As soon as you tow a caravan off the dealers premises you might encounter something that causes the panel to be damaged. Its just as difficult to convince a judge you didn't damage the panel as it is for the dealer convince him you had the opportunity to damage it. There is a high probability it would be judged equal liability.

But then there is the problem of what can be done about it. Theoretically if teh dealer is held responsible, all they are required to do is to restore the caravan to a condition that is commensurate to the same product that hasn't suffered the same problem, but that means using OEM parts for the job which will be the same again. Bearing in mind your clear intention to claim the origional design is not fit for purpose, you would not be content with a new ABS panel, but what is the alternative that you will be happy with?

Its beyond the capability of the dealer to produce a new moulding in a non ABS material, even if they could, they'd have no way of proving its durability before it's fitted and used.

That leaves two other options. the first would be the dealer to take back the caravan and refund the price less reasosnable usage, or to offer a compensation figure that represents the financial loss of your investment in the caravan.

I presume from the way you have previously robustly advocated the model you have, you would not be happy with any other caravan from a different make.

You need to be very clear on what it is you want, and what you might reasonably expect to receive. They might be poles apart.