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Jul 18, 2017
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Could one possibility be that the gearbox lock up clutch might be wearing and particulate leading to filter blockage. It’s a difficult one as the fault code could be due to a number of reasons which could lead to an expensive investigation. It’s a difficult dilemma for you.
Now it gets weird. The Jeep dealer that we used to resolve the alternator issue stated that in order to resolve the P0741 fault code they need to change the transmission fluid and the filter at a cost of £462.73 and it takes 2 hours. If that did not resolve the issue they would need to replace the solenoid or strip down the box to determine the fault?

On checking past invoices from the Jeep dealer that we used previously less than 12000 miles ago the transmission fluid was changed. The fluid was changed at 61k miles. I then phoned the previous Jeep dealer and queried whether they had changed the ATF filter. Their Jeep technician who is very knowledgable and on top of the game is an expert on Jeeps, informed me that the manufacturer had stated that there was no need for the filter to be changed? BTW their charge in 2020 for the ATF exc VAT was £43.50 for 3 litres

Unfortunately as that dealer is 75 miles from our residence, the breakdown company Mayday has a limit of 50 miles otherwise we would have used that dealership to do the job even if the cost was the same!

Again the more I look into it the more ripped off I feel! We certainly will not use that dealership again as no longer trust them.
 
Jun 16, 2020
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Have just booked my Volvo in for it’s yearly service. This topic has reminded me that I intended to have the auto transmission changed. It is supposed to be sealed for life (whatever that is). All works fine but I am told it is a good idea too change if the car is used for towing.

On Monday I will call my indie and get a price. It will be interesting to compare. I do know that mine has no drain plug, old oil needs sucking out. I am expecting £80 to £100.

John
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Have just booked my Volvo in for it’s yearly service. This topic has reminded me that I intended to have the auto transmission changed. It is supposed to be sealed for life (whatever that is). All works fine but I am told it is a good idea too change if the car is used for towing.

On Monday I will call my indie and get a price. It will be interesting to compare. I do know that mine has no drain plug, old oil needs sucking out. I am expecting £80 to £100.

John
I did the same on my 2010 XC70 D5 auto, and also I had Haldex fluid and filter changed on the XC70, and Superb 4x4 every 20k miles, but it did not prevent a Haldex failure at just over 40k miles on the Skoda.
 
Nov 16, 2015
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Our Jeep has low mileage for its age and is in immaculate condition. Once I knew it was the alternator I did a bit of shopping around and a new replacement was just under £800 with cost of about £200 to fit.

Going on that when the Jeep dealer said over the phone to me that the cost was just over £1200, I gave them the go ahead as not much of a difference and saved the hassle and cost of uplifting the vehicle to an Indie.

At the time I never realised that the price was excluding VAT however they are insisting that they also gave me the price incl VAT. Why give me the price excl VAT in the first place?
At the moment 71k miles is just average for a 10 year old car, as Covid has brought the average mileage down the last two years.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I do agree the costs do seem disproportionately high for what seems to have been done, but in all honesty that is what using a main dealer tends to do to prices

As for the actual cost you have been charged, you should have been given an itemised bill which shows the cost of parts and labour.

Unfortunately, It is very common for garages to quote ex VAT prices to customers. I suspect it could be to make the job look a little cheaper. But it could also be the fact that main dealers often deal with commercial businesses where VAT has to be shown separately. Customers should be wary about the practice and ask for confirmation of whether quotes include VAT or not.

For several reasons main and franchised will only fit OEM parts f as this removes any possibility of warranty claims being turned down by the manufacture where non brand parts have been used. OEM and branded parts you might obtain from elsewhere as a consumer are likely to carry similar prices.

Main and franchised dealers generally do have higher overheads - snazzy high profile showrooms and they usually have to pay something towards the cost of all the branding highlights they have on the premises. Also the employees invariably have to be brand trained which also costs, three factors that independents don't tend to have.

Concerning the work carried out and what might be needed in the future if the current works have not resolved the issues. I think you need to face the fact the car is ten years old. Its not covered by by warranty, so any failures will now bring their full cost on to the car owner. I think ten years without any major costs is actually pretty good.

You weren't obliged to use a main dealer, but you did so because you believed they might have a better insight into the vehicles problems. it was your choice. Cars are increasingly expensive to both buy and own, its the nature of such things.

Lets hope you don't need to have any of this work redone.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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I do agree the costs do seem disproportionately high for what seems to have been done, but in all honesty that is what using a main dealer tends to do to prices

As for the actual cost you have been charged, you should have been given an itemised bill which shows the cost of parts and labour.

Unfortunately, It is very common for garages to quote ex VAT prices to customers. I suspect it could be to make the job look a little cheaper. But it could also be the fact that main dealers often deal with commercial businesses where VAT has to be shown separately. Customers should be wary about the practice and ask for confirmation of whether quotes include VAT or not.

For several reasons main and franchised will only fit OEM parts f as this removes any possibility of warranty claims being turned down by the manufacture where non brand parts have been used. OEM and branded parts you might obtain from elsewhere as a consumer are likely to carry similar prices.

Main and franchised dealers generally do have higher overheads - snazzy high profile showrooms and they usually have to pay something towards the cost of all the branding highlights they have on the premises. Also the employees invariably have to be brand trained which also costs, three factors that independents don't tend to have.

Concerning the work carried out and what might be needed in the future if the current works have not resolved the issues. I think you need to face the fact the car is ten years old. Its not covered by by warranty, so any failures will now bring their full cost on to the car owner. I think ten years without any major costs is actually pretty good.

You weren't obliged to use a main dealer, but you did so because you believed they might have a better insight into the vehicles problems. it was your choice. Cars are increasingly expensive to both buy and own, its the nature of such things.

Lets hope you don't need to have any of this work redone.
Excellent post. I had used the main dealer previously to resolve the P0741 fault code on the car and thought the fault was an underlying reason for the alternator failing. In addition, I had already booked the vehicle back in with them as the P0741 for which I had originally paid them to resolve had flagged up again and they wanted another £400+ to resolve and their resolution was not one recommended.

Just to add. I requested that the old alternator be given back to me and was then told that there may be a surcharge as they send them off for refurbishment. I pointed out that it was my alternator and not theirs.

I also asked whether a brand new alternator had been fitted to which they replied in the positive. The old alternator was then produced and I was told there was no surcharge. It seems that they sell on the faulty alternator and pocket that money instead of passing it onto the customer? Unfortunately I cannot prove that is what happens.

If I had been given the price incl VAT in the first place I would not have had an argument with them as I had accepted that price. In hindsight I should have requested an email with a breakdown. All the current invoice shows is the total price and not a breakdown of cost of spares and labour. Our previous Jeep dealer always itemised everything so it was very clear what you were paying for.

We certainly will not be using that dealership again as lesson learnt that the dealership closest may save time and fuel, but that is where it ends.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Most garage's have a system for estimating jobs, where for jobs such as regular, known or common problems, the system has well established time's and necessary parts listing to complete the job. This enables garage's to fairly quickly produce estimates for customers.

Where this cannot help is with unusual issue's where investigation is needed to establish what the problem actually is. A scan of an ODB port to read the recorded faults may only take 10 mins, but digging down through the data and mechanical bits for more precise analysis can take much longer if the problem is intermittent or unusual. Time costs money.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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Most garage's have a system for estimating jobs, where for jobs such as regular, known or common problems, the system has well established time's and necessary parts listing to complete the job. This enables garage's to fairly quickly produce estimates for customers.

Where this cannot help is with unusual issue's where investigation is needed to establish what the problem actually is. A scan of an ODB port to read the recorded faults may only take 10 mins, but digging down through the data and mechanical bits for more precise analysis can take much longer if the problem is intermittent or unusual. Time costs money.
Many motorists have found to their costs that the technician takes stab in the dark relying too much on a computer and changes associated components, but does not resolve the fault. More and more components are changed until the fault disappears, but technician is none the wiser to which component caused the fault.

However the customer has had to pay for all those components plus labour when the actual fault may have cost £50 with an hour's labour. Instead the customer has to pay £1000 for unnecessary components and additional labour as the technician relies on a computer to give him and answer.
 
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Jun 20, 2005
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Many years ago dynamos , starter motors etc were returned to Lucas . Refurbished and sold as a Lucas B90 replacement. All guaranteed. Same with the old BMC Gold Seal engines.
Big business refurbishment 😎

Ian you may be right in your last post. Diagnostics is a black art in itself. All a matter of luck what technician you get. Computers are very good but give me a seasoned technician any day whose experience tells him what is really wrong.
The oldies amongst us have probably forgotten more than the young Techs know😜
 
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Nov 16, 2015
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Many motorists have found to their costs that the technician takes stab in the dark relying too much on a computer and changes associated components, but does not resolve the fault. More and more components are changed until the fault disappears, but technician is none the wiser to which component caused the fault.

However the customer has had to pay for all those components plus labour when the actual fault may have cost £50 with an hour's labour. Instead the customer has to pay £1000 for unnecessary components and additional labour as the technician relies on a computer to give him and answer.
Car makers take many thousand of hours testing components, and the failures and how they interact with other components, but somewhere along the way, something happens that has not been known about.
Technitions during their work gain their experience , from courses and working on the cars, every now and again they find out certain faults happen that is not recorded by the makers in the fault finding books that are available, this knowlege is hidden away in the techs mind or his/ her little book of gems.
When the diagnostic code states, change component A, its changed but the fault persist, eventually its traced to component D, sometimes, the same code has three or 4 components that can cause the same fault code.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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Car makers take many thousand of hours testing components, and the failures and how they interact with other components, but somewhere along the way, something happens that has not been known about.
Technitions during their work gain their experience , from courses and working on the cars, every now and again they find out certain faults happen that is not recorded by the makers in the fault finding books that are available, this knowlege is hidden away in the techs mind or his/ her little book of gems.
When the diagnostic code states, change component A, its changed but the fault persist, eventually its traced to component D, sometimes, the same code has three or 4 components that can cause the same fault code.
In our case the dealer wanted to replace totally unnecessary parts i.e. transmission fluid and filter. I have since found out that they have only been a Jeep dealer for about 2 years. It maybe that the technician is not experienced enough in Jeeps, but is highly skilled in other brands.
On my three visits to the dealer in question I have not seen any other Jeeps of any other model on their premises, but the other Jeeps have been around the back or elsewhere.
However this time around only the radio station was changed and everything else was as I had left it when handing over the Jeep unlike the previous occasion when just about every control inside the cab had been adjusted.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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As Hutch has suggested, the ODB system should not be assumed to be the only way to resolve a problem, Its just a tool and as with all tools its not a universal solution for problem solving. But it should not be denigrated entirely becasue its full potential has not been fully developed yet. As with any new item, it can be tested in many ways, but it only needs one unforeseen scenario to arise to expose its short comings, and actually exactly the same applies to seasoned engineers, if they come across something that is outside the scope of their experience, they to end up taking longer to resolve issues or sometimes even failing to resolve it or even getting completely wrong.

The fact is the ODB system is right more often than its wrong , but of course you don't hear about the hundreds of occasions when a job has bee successfully completed to everyone's expectations.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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In our case the dealer wanted to replace totally unnecessary parts i.e. transmission fluid and filter. I have since found out that they have only been a Jeep dealer for about 2 years. It maybe that the technician is not experienced enough in Jeeps, but is highly skilled in other brands.
On my three visits to the dealer in question I have not seen any other Jeeps of any other model on their premises, but the other Jeeps have been around the back or elsewhere.
However this time around only the radio station was changed and everything else was as I had left it when handing over the Jeep unlike the previous occasion when just about every control inside the cab had been adjusted.
When I had a Sorento Mk1 in 2005 I felt the Kia technicians weren’t that knowledgeable about the car as there were not many such cars in the area. They did the servicing whilst under warranty but once the 3 years had passed it went to my local garage who we had been using since 1976 and who dealt with a very wide range of customers cars.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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When I had a Sorento Mk1 in 2005 I felt the Kia technicians weren’t that knowledgeable about the car as there were not many such cars in the area. They did the servicing whilst under warranty but once the 3 years had passed it went to my local garage who we had been using since 1976 and who dealt with a very wide range of customers cars.
I’ve had two Sorentos. Tough as old boots , reliable and comfy. I left the same dealer as you once the warranty expired. A wild weird electrical problem arose. On starting up every single bulb lit up like a Christmas tree.
The Sorento Owners Forum had the solution. A 64 pin plug and socket corrodes. Pull apart , liberally apply electrical contact spray , twice over 12 hours. Problem solved.
I love Forums👏👏👏
 
Mar 14, 2005
15,667
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In our case the dealer wanted to replace totally unnecessary parts i.e. transmission fluid and filter. I have since found out that they have only been a Jeep dealer for about 2 years. It maybe that the technician is not experienced enough in Jeeps, but is highly skilled in other brands.
On my three visits to the dealer in question I have not seen any other Jeeps of any other model on their premises, but the other Jeeps have been around the back or elsewhere.
However this time around only the radio station was changed and everything else was as I had left it when handing over the Jeep unlike the previous occasion when just about every control inside the cab had been adjusted.
You now have the benefit of hindsight about some of the problem, and its only now that you believe the change of filter and transmission oil was unnecessary, I don't think anyone likes to waste and I don't like to see unnecessary charges, but sometimes the only way to establish if a problem has been solved is to test it in the way it is actually used. In this case there is no substitute for the correct fluid and filters.

Perhaps the method used by the garage was the the recognised standard way of investigating the problem based on the symptoms presented, and you may have encountered the same procedure regardless of where you went.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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You now have the benefit of hindsight about some of the problem, and its only now that you believe the change of filter and transmission oil was unnecessary, I don't think anyone likes to waste and I don't like to see unnecessary charges, but sometimes the only way to establish if a problem has been solved is to test it in the way it is actually used. In this case there is no substitute for the correct fluid and filters.

Perhaps the method used by the garage was the the recognised standard way of investigating the problem based on the symptoms presented, and you may have encountered the same procedure regardless of where you went.
Apologies I did not make it clear. After the new alternator was fitted I was informed that to resolve the P0741 fault code they needed to change the transmission fluid and filter.

I thought it strange as car had done less than 12000 miles since the ATF was changed so spoke with previous dealer who confirmed that there is no necessity to change the filter and the fluid should be good for 100,000 miles.

I declined their kind offer of doing unnecessary work for only £430. The previous dealer charged £43 excl VAT for 3 litres of fluid so not sure how they arrived at £430 for the same job. They stated 2 hours labour for the job!

If I remember correctly the transmission fluid is sucked out using machine and it does not take 2 hours for old fluid to be removed and replaced with fresh new fluid. I am only going on memory and may be wrong about the fluid being sucked out.

It does seem that they never even looked at the reason why I had taken the Jedep to them in the first place which was for the P0741 fault code and simply cleared it and charged for replacement glow plugs.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Some Volvo gearboxes require “sucking out” replacing with fresh oil, and I believe sucked out again and again refilled with fresh. Must cost a fortune
 
Jun 16, 2020
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Some Volvo gearboxes require “sucking out” replacing with fresh oil, and I believe sucked out again and again refilled with fresh. Must cost a fortune
I just did some research and it seems mine does have a drain plug, the plug incorporates the level gauge. It would seem that the method is as you suggest, drain, fill run and repeat. On the last fill it then needs linking to a computer, bringing up to 50c then draining any excess, then resetting the computer.

The YouTube video said you could do 3 changes with 12 ltr’s of fluid. But my manual says it holds 7 ltr so I can't see how that's possible. And at about £12 per ltr, not cheap. Seems a wasteful way to do things.

I can't find any mention of a filter to change. But motor factors seem to have them for sale. I need to do more research.

John
 
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Nov 11, 2009
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Some Volvo gearboxes require “sucking out” replacing with fresh oil, and I believe sucked out again and again refilled with fresh. Must cost a fortune
My CVT takes 12.4 litres of oil when it is changed. And its not sealed for life. Having the gearbox and three diffs changed cost £313 in July 2020 at a main dealership. Towing or arduous duty requires more frequent changes.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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I would like to thank every one who gave me very valuable information and help regarding the mechanics of a vehicle. Just one last question and it is not mechanical.

To diagnose the fault the dealer connects up a scan machine and the charge for using this diagnostic tool is £90 per hour. The you have the cost of the part and labour. They did this twice for the first visit and again for the second more serious fault.

Can you request the print out from the diagnostic machine as you paid for it? Can you also request a breakdown of the costs as both invoices from the dealership only have a figure showing before VAT and a second figure including VAT? The invoice does not show labour cost and cost of alternator and any consumables.
 

JTQ

May 7, 2005
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You can of course request one, that is totally within your control, whether they oblige you is quite different, but the outcome could be very telling.

However, from all I have read here, if for forming an opinion about them I don't think I would need to know any more.

In my view a company's incompetence in doing their business is a cost they should bear, not their clients.
It is total incompetence to simply keep changing, and charging for kit till you find the right one causing the problem," competence" includes working out where a fault lies before taking that route.
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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You can of course request one, that is totally within your control, whether they oblige you is quite different, but the outcome could be very telling.

However, from all I have read here, if for forming an opinion about them I don't think I would need to know any more.
I went through all my previous invoices for the Jeep and everyone of them has a breakdown of charges separating labour and parts. The majority are from previous Jeep dealer and some from Indies.

However none from the previous Jeep dealer invoices show a charge for diagnostics.
 

JTQ

May 7, 2005
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I have been charged for diagnosis, and myself charged for that, and I think that is a legitimate cost as it takes time, skill and often equipment to achieve.
However, I don't think stabbing in the dark by simply changing kit till the problem is resolved is "diagnosis", basically any idiot can do that. Here one IMO should be buying expertise.
 
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