Electric cars and towing

[GaryB]

Why don’t the chargers at M Way services bill board their prices.The chargers at Bath Hospital show no costs. Seem you have to plug in and stick your CC in first. A bit late to pull out the 😉

Most seem to rely on you using their phone app which will show you the price in kwh. I suppose it's one of those things with EV use in that you have to plan ahead before venturing out. There are apps that list all charging points (such as Zap-Map) but some of those charge points listed require you to go to the providers app to view the prices. As Tobes points out, using an EV economically does involve a lot more thinking than just pulling into a petrol station.

The other issue is the different plug/connection types (that I think reflect the charge rate?), I smugly pulled into a charge bay at our Aldi before realising that it was a different connection to my car's Type-2 plug.

 

[Tobes]

Most seem to rely on you using their phone app which will show you the price in kwh. I suppose it's one of those things with EV use in that you have to plan ahead before venturing out. There are apps that list all charging points (such as Zap-Map) but some of those charge points listed require you to go to the providers app to view the prices. As Tobes points out, using an EV economically does involve a lot more thinking than just pulling into a petrol station.

The other issue is the different plug/connection types (that I think reflect the charge rate?), I smugly pulled into a charge bay at our Aldi before realising that it was a different connection to my car's Type-2 plug.

There are some location that are now displaying pricing on a sign outside. For example, this location near Cherwell valley services on the A43.

Prices tend to vary by network, rather than by location, with the one exception of Tesla who do charge by location. On the rare occasion I do want to know about pricing, I tend to use the Octopus Eletroverse app. It has live pricing for most (but not all) locations.

@GaryB, I think your experience with a PHEV is different to that when you have a full EV for a couple of reasons.

1) absolute EV range. With a shorter range EV (like a PHEV) you are far more likely to be in a position where you want to charge. A 25 mile each way journey in your 40mile car would leave you out of electricity, and gets you asking the question, should I charge (which is expensive in public) or use petrol (which is always expensive), and you end up doing the latter.
With a full EV (and a range of 160 mile upwards), this event is far less likely, meaning almost all of your journeys are on home charging, which is so cheap that the occasional higher price public top up is easily bearable as its a rare occurrence.

2) The "wrong plug" thing. There are really only 3 kinds of public chargers Type 2 (that you have) Type 2 CCS (the DC variant of type 2, which you may have) and ChaDeMo, the older DC standard that is now being phased out (no new cars are available with it other than the Lexus RX idiocy).
With a "new" EV (anything over 7 years old except a Nissan Leaf or the Lexus) you will have type 2 and type 2 CCS. One is slow and you carry your own cable, the other is fast and it's built in. Again - you make the mistake once, and you learn what is good for you.

 

[GaryB]

@Tobes , thanks, always interesting to hear "real life" experiences. I appreciate that a PHEV is a different world/reality to a full EV but some of the KWh prices quoted an EV ppm is considerably more than an ICE vehicle. I'm certainly not one of the anti-EV brigade and really do see their benefit regarding inner-city pollution but you have to be smart/plan ahead to avoid getting financially drained when it needs topping up.

The only charging company I subscribe to is Pod-Point, simply because there is one at Tesco so I'm usually guaranteed a parking space and at 35 p/kwh it isn't expensive. However, looking on their app I can pay almost double that a short distance away.

I'll stick with an ICE/hybrid variant for as long as possible, but I do enjoy reading how others manage their EV choice.

 

[Boxerman]

Anyone got any thoughts on towing with an electric car and range please.

We have hybrid elec & petrol it ok but with hindsight I would stay with Diesel our hybrid it’s a Hyundai Tucson 24 plate and towing a 1500kg van it returns 24mpg. But you end up using the paddle to change gear as the car doesn’t always get it right

 

[Dustydog]

What an eye opener!
Asda 65p, Tesco 35p kWh.And neither are motorway services!
Is some one profiteering🙀

 

[Gafferbill]

Good job very little if any tax is added to the price!

The sale of every litre of diesel equals 65p tax to pay for government services.
Surely there is a dilemma rushing towards electric car use in the form of future taxation to replace that lost from diminishing fossil fuel sales.

 

[otherclive]

What an eye opener!
Asda 65p, Tesco 35p kWh.And neither are motorway services!
Is some one profiteering🙀

I suspect that until the market becomes mature and competitive drivers may well be ill served. Wonder as so many EVs are run by businesses or costs reimbursed then drivers are not so price sensitive as private owner drivers.

 

[otherclive]

Good job very little if any tax is added to the price!

The sale of every litre of diesel equals 65p tax to pay for government services.
Surely there is a dilemma rushing towards electric car use in the form of future taxation to replace that lost from diminishing fossil fuel sales.

That’s been recognised for quite a while ever since petrol cars below a certain emissions level were £0 or £20 VED. This train has been coming down the tunnel and apart from a vague look at road pricing it would be a brave politician who introduces that one.

 

[GaryB]

I suspect that until the market becomes mature and competitive drivers may well be ill served. Wonder as so many EVs are run by businesses or costs reimbursed then drivers are not so price sensitive as private owner drivers.

As things currently stand with HYBRID drivers, if they use their private vehicle for company use they claim fuel back from their employer at the current ICE rate of 45ppm. If their employer lets them charge their vehicle at work this ISN'T taken into account for expense claims so they can in effect get a double-payment whammy. I'm sure all the loop-holes, grey areas and perks will get ironed out eventually, but at the minute it's far from fair!

 

[Tobes]

What an eye opener!
Asda 65p, Tesco 35p kWh.And neither are motorway services!
Is some one profiteering🙀

As I say, prices are by provider, not location. BP charge through the nose at 89p, Gridserve is more like 75p, both present at Stafford north services. Tesla have no open chargers on the motorway network, so its hard to compare directly, but Preston south right next to the M6 junction, is between 44p and 56p depending on time of day, and is as low as 33p with membership (£9 per month).

 

[Tobes]

As things currently stand with HYBRID drivers, if they use their private vehicle for company use they claim fuel back from their employer at the current ICE rate of 45ppm. If their employer lets them charge their vehicle at work this ISN'T taken into account for expense claims so they can in effect get a double-payment whammy. I'm sure all the loop-holes, grey areas and perks will get ironed out eventually, but at the minute it's far from fair!

Private EV drivers claim mileage at the same rate. Private cars used for business are agnostic from a fuel perspective from mileage charges. On site charging is not considered a taxable benefit, so if your company provides it for free, it is truly free. Cars that are business owned (company car or salary sacrifice) have a different set of tax rules.

 

[Tobes]

I suspect that until the market becomes mature and competitive drivers may well be ill served. Wonder as so many EVs are run by businesses or costs reimbursed then drivers are not so price sensitive as private owner drivers.

In my experience, private EV drivers are not sensitive to public charging, because they almost never do it. We have 4 EVs in our household. One has never public charged (in 2.5 years), one has done it 3 times in 16 months, one has three times in nearly 2.5 years. Mine does more frequently, but I drive around 15,000 miles a year and tow. Perhaps 1000 to 1500 of those miles are public charged. All the rest are at home at 7p per kWh (2p per mile).

Again - this assumes you can home charge. If you cant - its a different story, one that needs resolving.

 

[otherclive]

In my experience, private EV drivers are not sensitive to public charging, because they almost never do it. We have 4 EVs in our household. One has never public charged (in 2.5 years), one has done it 3 times in 16 months, one has three times in nearly 2.5 years. Mine does more frequently, but I drive around 15,000 miles a year and tow. Perhaps 1000 to 1500 of those miles are public charged. All the rest are at home at 7p per kWh (2p per mile).

Again - this assumes you can home charge. If you cant - its a different story, one that needs resolving.

Thank you, that’s an enlightening post based on real world experience. Brings some valuable context to the debate.

 

[Oscarmax]

I've been running a PHEV for nearly six months now, mine has a very usable 40-odd miles running solo as an EV. I'm a devout petrol-head but I just love running the Audi in EV mode, it's seamlessly quiet with ample power and charging it at home equates to (very roughly) half the price of running it on petrol. It wasn't cheap (£63.5K new) but buying it as an ex-demonstrator at 3 months old saw the price drop to a more palatable £45K. At the end of the day, there's very few "cheap" new tow cars nowadays.

Driving with the (1500kgs) caravan on the back the other day in full hybrid mode saw an economy of 36mpg, returning home just on petrol (battery flat) saw 23mpg (yes, I KNOW that a diesel would do more but a diesel doesn't suit the 95% of my driving that isn't towing).

The negatives for me are the proliferation of charging point providers that charge a bewildering difference in price, I use Pod-Point as they have a charger at Tesco that charges around 30p/kwh, but another Pod-Point charger 1/4 mile away charges 65p/kwh. I'd love to use public charging points more but the majority are more expensive that running it on petrol.

EV's and their infrastructure are undoubtedly getting better but not good enough for me, not yet anyway.

Starting with a full battery in late September we see around 36mpg towing 175 miles returning home with a depleted battery 29.84mpg measure fill to fill.

 

[Devonisheaven]

There are some location that are now displaying pricing on a sign outside. For example, this location near Cherwell valley services on the A43. View attachment 8713

Prices tend to vary by network, rather than by location, with the one exception of Tesla who do charge by location. On the rare occasion I do want to know about pricing, I tend to use the Octopus Eletroverse app. It has live pricing for most (but not all) locations. View attachment 8714

@GaryB, I think your experience with a PHEV is different to that when you have a full EV for a couple of reasons.

1) absolute EV range. With a shorter range EV (like a PHEV) you are far more likely to be in a position where you want to charge. A 25 mile each way journey in your 40mile car would leave you out of electricity, and gets you asking the question, should I charge (which is expensive in public) or use petrol (which is always expensive), and you end up doing the latter.
With a full EV (and a range of 160 mile upwards), this event is far less likely, meaning almost all of your journeys are on home charging, which is so cheap that the occasional higher price public top up is easily bearable as its a rare occurrence.

2) The "wrong plug" thing. There are really only 3 kinds of public chargers Type 2 (that you have) Type 2 CCS (the DC variant of type 2, which you may have) and ChaDeMo, the older DC standard that is now being phased out (no new cars are available with it other than the Lexus RX idiocy).
With a "new" EV (anything over 7 years old except a Nissan Leaf or the Lexus) you will have type 2 and type 2 CCS. One is slow and you carry your own cable, the other is fast and it's built in. Again - you make the mistake once, and you learn what is good for you.

PHEV’s never “leave you out of electricity”. They discharge to around %15 then revert to being a HEV. 👍

 

[Oscarmax]

1) absolute EV range. With a shorter range EV (like a PHEV) you are far more likely to be in a position where you want to charge. A 25 mile each way journey in your 40mile car would leave you out of electricity, and gets you asking the question, should I charge (which is expensive in public) or use petrol (which is always expensive), and you end up doing the latter.
With a full EV (and a range of 160 mile upwards), this event is far less likely, meaning almost all of your journeys are on home charging, which is so cheap that the occasional higher price public top up is easily bearable as its a rare occurrence.

Towing with our PHEV the break even point is around 45 pence @ kWh, occasionally I recharge up using 44 pence @ kWh Podpoints to keep the wife happy, on holiday solo it is cheaper to use petrol, towing very little difference between E10 petrol or Podpoint 44 pence kWh, Caravan Club £7.00 a day definite no.

 

[Tobes]

PHEV’s never “leave you out of electricity”. They discharge to around %15 then revert to being a HEV. 👍

Thats being "out of electricity". It means you are reliant on the ICE to run the car. (I ran a PHEV for 4 years so speak from experience). You have to make the choice at that point to either run the car on the ICE or recharge the car. If you are away from home, it is almost invariably cheaper to run on fuel than recharge (as per @Oscarmax post #41). When I ran mine, you could still charge for free in almost all Tesco locations and many type 2 chargers were free.

My point though was that with a full EV, you never make this choice (to charge or not to charge - that is the question). You either drive all the way home and charge very cheaply (because you have 160 miles or more range, not 40), or you charge away from home on a public charger to avoid being stranded. But the absolute vast majority of times you do the former, saving a fortune (over petrol - and public charging) in the process.

It's this same behaviour that makes EVs so convenient and easy to live with, that you can't really get until you actually run one (or run a PHEV that has an all electric range that means almost all your journeys are on electric only). Stopping to refuel (charge) becomes a once in a blue moon activity, and all of your charging is when you are doing something else - mostly sleeping.

 

[Buckman]

What an eye opener!
Asda 65p, Tesco 35p kWh.And neither are motorway services!
Is some one profiteering🙀

We have the same with fuel in our local town where the fuel at the ASDA station is more costly than Tesco around the corner. Sometimes by as much as 5p a litre!

 

[Oscarmax]

We have the same with fuel in our local town where the fuel at the ASDA station is more costly than Tesco around the corner. Sometimes by as much as 5p a litre!

Our local Tesco is 9 pence a litre dearer that the Tesco 6 miles down the road, we use the Tesco 6 miles down the road.

 

[Dustydog]

Near me Tesco Diesel 142, Asda 138.

 

[Buckman]

Our local Tesco is 9 pence a litre dearer that the Tesco 6 miles down the road, we use the Tesco 6 miles down the road.

However by the time you have done the round trip of 12 miles, the cost difference is negligible for most people.

 

[otherclive]

Our local Tesco is 9 pence a litre dearer that the Tesco 6 miles down the road, we use the Tesco 6 miles down the road.

I find the same with Sainsbury’s too. Currently 136.9 for diesel and 129.9 for petrol. 6p cheaper than the Sainsbury near to us. But I’ve not had to make a specific trip to Melksham as I needed a haircut and had to sort out some things for BIL’s building society account.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I hope this thread doesn't become a another fuel price logging exercise. It's a sad fact that fuel prices go up and down almost weekly or sometimes daily, so reporting a price today may not be true tomorrow, and of course it will only be relevant to those in the vicinity of the fuel station. not to the whole of the country.

Rather like the traffic reports thread, I don't care what the price is where you are even if it is 5p/L cheaper It's not going to help me or any one whose more than 5 miles away.

Please just accept that the price does vary, and you should do your own leg work to find the best price in your area on the day without having to post about it in the forum.

 

[Buckman]

I hope this thread doesn't become a another fuel price logging exercise. It's a sad fact that fuel prices go up and down almost weekly or sometimes daily, so reporting a price today may not be true tomorrow, and of course it will only be relevant to those in the vicinity of the fuel station. not to the whole of the country.

Rather like the traffic reports thread, I don't care what the price is where you are even if it is 5p/L cheaper It's not going to help me or any one whose more than 5 miles away.

Please just accept that the price does vary, and you should do your own leg work to find the best price in your area on the day without having to post about it in the forum.

Is there a rule about not posting petrol prices on this forum or is it another of your rules?

 

[otherclive]

I hope this thread doesn't become a another fuel price logging exercise. It's a sad fact that fuel prices go up and down almost weekly or sometimes daily, so reporting a price today may not be true tomorrow, and of course it will only be relevant to those in the vicinity of the fuel station. not to the whole of the country.

Rather like the traffic reports thread, I don't care what the price is where you are even if it is 5p/L cheaper It's not going to help me or any one whose more than 5 miles away.

Please just accept that the price does vary, and you should do your own leg work to find the best price in your area on the day without having to post about it in the forum.

I never do leg work trying to find the best price on the day, a waste of time to save a small amount. Locally I have a pretty good idea which stations are most competitive and top up when required. Although if in the adjacent town for any reason I will top up as the prices are well below our local prices and putting half a tank, or more, in is worthwhile. Out of area I refuel when required but apart from motorway services I just put the fuel in wherever it’s convenient to the journey. My satnav with subscription services tells me cheapest price in area, but I’ve never used that feature so can’t say how accurate it is.