Kerb Weight and Plate Upgrade

[RogerL]

A lot of new caravans can have MTPLM uprated to round number. What I don't understand is why advertise such lower odd number MTPLM to start with.

If low number is to increase number of cars that can tow caravan why odd number. Car tow ratings are typically round numbers eg 1200, not 1120kg.

Most buyers of new caravans are experienced towers and own car suitable for caravan size they are buying.

The low number is calculated from the minimum payload based on the length and number of berths plus the MIRO

 

[Lutz]

The reason why the lower number is an odd number is because it's not really a technical maximum, as the term MTPLM implies, but a calculated one for marketing purposes only.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Because uniquely within the UK we have the oft misquoted towing advice of not exceeding 85% of the cars kerbweight, many possible caravanners would have been put off from purchasing some caravans becasue the real MTPLM exceeded the advisory figure.

By giving a caravan and artificially lower pseudo MTPLM, it widened the scope of drivers than would consider it. It also offered an opportunity for manufacturers to make upgrades a cash cow.

 

[Buckman]

Most brands offer MTPLM upgrades free of charge. We have never paid for an upgrade so hardly a cash cow?

 

[otherclive]

Two caravans (Bailey and Swift) that I had upgrades on I had to pay. Not a great sum around £30 and for that I received a paper stating the changes to the speciation and a new sticky label to go by the door. I didn't feel I was ripped off as there was a certain amount of admin involved by the two companies.

What did grind though was the fact that in order to lure unknowing buyers the initial MTPLM was set low so more cars could tow at 85% or thereabouts. Thus, the unknowing would have a lower payload than what was possible, hence the increase in tow cars with roof boxes even when there were only two people.

 

[Lutz]

If a weight upgrade is free of charge it's probably not a true upgrade at all, but it only brings the details on the sticker by the door in line with what was on the statutory plate all the time already. If that is the case and one has checked that the desired ‘upgraded’ MTPLM is already displayed on the statutory plate then the cheapest solution is to simply remove the label by the door. It’s only there for sales purposes anyway.
A true upgrade will always cost something as it involves technical changes such as tyres with a higher load index or a heavier duty axle.

 

[RogerL]

Two caravans (Bailey and Swift) that I had upgrades on I had to pay. Not a great sum around £30 and for that I received a paper stating the changes to the speciation and a new sticky label to go by the door. I didn't feel I was ripped off as there was a certain amount of admin involved by the two companies.

What did grind though was the fact that in order to lure unknowing buyers the initial MTPLM was set low so more cars could tow at 85% or thereabouts. Thus, the unknowing would have a lower payload than what was possible, hence the increase in tow cars with roof boxes even when there were only two people.

Roof boxes are about extra volume, not extra weight - after deducting the weight of the roof box itself plus any fitting bars there's not much payload left in terms of weight - but they can take the bulky items to allow more space for heavy items inside the car.

 

[otherclive]

Roof boxes are about extra volume, not extra weight - after deducting the weight of the roof box itself plus any fitting bars there's not much payload left in terms of weight - but they can take the bulky items to allow more space for heavy items inside the car.

My mid sized Hapro Traxer 370 litre weighs 15kg, the aluminium aero bars and clamps weigh 7.2kg, the car can accept 75kg as can the roof box and the bars . So I would not dismiss a carrying capacity of 52.8kg that readily. Noting though that the extra load on the roof contributes to the cars total load which must not exceed GVW.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

Ok folks, regarding this 85% rule and that I’m a first time caravaner, but have pulled a 750kg trailer previously.

- Car details, we own an Audi 2020 SQ5 with following details
Max Permissible Mass: 2625
Mass in Service: 2118
- Technical Permissible Maximum Towable Mass of Trailer
Braked: 2400

- The Caravan details
MRO: 1683
MTPLM: 1863 which will be upgraded to 2000.

Just so I’m perfectly clear on this, I am allowed to tow this caravan, or am I above recommended % limit? Is there any factors which I need to do or change?

 

[Lutz]

You are certainly allowed to tow the caravan, but you would come into conflict with the 85% weight ratio recommendation if it's plated at 2000kg.

If the mass in service of the car is 2118kg, it would be fairly safe to assume that the kerbweight will be approximately 2200kg. 85% of that is 1870kg. So, if you wish to abide by the 85% recommendation you would be able to tow the caravan loaded up to its original 'MTPLM', but not if it's loaded to 2000kg.

If you plan on keeping the caravan several years it may still be worthwhile specifying the upgrade, especially if it's free, as with time you will gain experience which would allow you to ignore the weight ratio recommendation at some later point in time.

 

[otherclive]

According to your figures your ratio would be 90% if you loaded the caravan to its maximum upgraded MTPLM. The 85% is guidance not a fixed limit and its introduction is shrouded in mystery.

Other things affecting stability are things like car suspension, tyre pressures on car and van, where loads are placed, noseweight, does car have trailer stability mode, driving speed, road perturbation, weather, effects if other vehicles etc.

With your car I would be happy to drive the outfit fully loaded. But why not start at a lightly loaded caravan and get a feel for your outfit, then as confidence grows you could increase loading.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

Ok let’s just say we go with 90% tops and no more, as a rule

This would allow us 1980 which will give us more kg allowance

If we go with this and the AWD motor movers installed adding roughly + 70kg

This gives us roughly 227kg which can or not use?

Does this sound right

 

[otherclive]

If your figures are correct you should be able to manage very well on 227kg. But do make sure what is included in your MIRO as there are sometimes variations between what’s included or not included between luxury vans and others. I seem to recall someone posting that their . MIRO included two gas cylinders and water in an internal tank. Whereas mine was one 6kg gas cylinder and no fluids. So if your van includes water in internal tank and two gas cylinders you could dispense with them and save weight. Check with your Dealer, Maker or it could be in the Owners Manual.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

We have a meeting tomorrow with the dealer, so will certainly ask this question

Thanks all

 

[ProfJohnL]

The 85% is definitely not a "rule". it has no legal impact. it is only advisory.

 

[otherclive]

We have a meeting tomorrow with the dealer, so will certainly ask this question

Thanks all

You might find this link “helpful” with respect to MIRO. There are different inclusions between Buckman, Thingy and myself and the three caravans are different sizes from budget, mid to high range. It epitomises why people get confused wrt caravans. Essential that you understand what’s included in your MIRO.

MRO or MiRO.

I have been caravanning 25 years, and I have always said you never stop learning. Whilst my caravan has been at the bodgers repairers, its contents are piled behind me, and out of boredom the other day I grabbed the handbook. I am aware that the precise details of what contstitues MRO changed a...

forums.practicalcaravan.com

 

[Lutz]

If your figures are correct you should be able to manage very well on 227kg. But do make sure what is included in your MIRO as there are sometimes variations between what’s included or not included between luxury vans and others. I seem to recall someone posting that their . MIRO included two gas cylinders and water in an internal tank. Whereas mine was one 6kg gas cylinder and no fluids. So if your van includes water in internal tank and two gas cylinders you could dispense with them and save weight. Check with your Dealer, Maker or it could be in the Owners Manual.

If you have any doubt whether you have an adequate payload margin and you think that you may be sailing a bit close to the wind, do not rely on any quoted MIRO, regardless of what any dealer might tell you. The only sure way of establishing its true unladen weight is to put the caravan on a weighbridge.

 

[trevormonty]

We have a meeting tomorrow with the dealer, so will certainly ask this question

Thanks all

Have dealer weigh it then you know where you starting from along with towbar down weight.

 

[trevormonty]

Im a caravan newbie, call me crazy

I have towed a trailer though, so sort of counts

This caravan is considerably longer and wider than average trailer. Thing to look out for is cutting corners not just on tight country lanes but in things like petrol forecourts, watch you van through wing mirrors. Also approach angles to driveways, best taken at angle due to long over hang.

If you can find a vacant carpark place some cones out and drive around plus try some reversing. You have motormovers so perfect reversing onto pitch isn't needed. But you don't want to be unhooking for every reversing maneuver where every that is needed.

 

[otherclive]

If you have any doubt whether you have an adequate payload margin and you think that you may be sailing a bit close to the wind, do not rely on any quoted MIRO, regardless of what any dealer might tell you. The only sure way of establishing its true unladen weight is to put the caravan on a weighbridge.

You still need to know what its configuration is when weighed. IE does it have a gas cylinder(s) any water in the tanks or thetford, wastemaster…..yes or no? Etc.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

So the dealership will know what is all included in the MRO?

Or speak with the MFTR or look in handbook

 

[Mickyjb]

Leebroath,
The 2023 Swift handbook can be downloaded from here, have a read, talk to your dealer, have a think and relax!
Don't be alarmed (on here) by the shriek of axe-grinding, the alarm that the mounting of high-horses can produce or the insidious buzz of bees-in-bonnets.
The information you've laid-out about your car and up-coming caravan strongly suggests a good outfit; keep grounded, keep thinking and above all look forward to enjoyment.
Regards
Mick

 

[Lutz]

You still need to know what its configuration is when weighed. IE does it have a gas cylinder(s) any water in the tanks or thetford, wastemaster…..yes or no? Etc.

I doubt very much if, in retrospect, anyone would be able to establish any more with absolute certainty what was included in the caravan that was submitted for type approval and for which the MIRO is quoted. After all, the MIRO is no more than a generic value. It is much safer to rely on weighing the actual caravan. Only then does one know for sure what is on board and what isn’t.
The MIRO (Mass in Service) quoted for my car, for instance, is 85kg less than its actual weight.

 

[Buckman]

Ok let’s just say we go with 90% tops and no more, as a rule

This would allow us 1980 which will give us more kg allowance

If we go with this and the AWD motor movers installed adding roughly + 70kg

This gives us roughly 227kg which can or not use?

Does this sound right

Regarding modern cars the 85% is well outdated and I would have no hesitation towing 2000kg with your vehicle which is more than capable of giving you a safe tow. Towing at 1980 or 2000kg is hardly going to make any difference and getting to exactly 1980kg is practically impossible. Don't worry about it and enjoy your first outing when you get your caravan.

 

[Saxo Appeal]

Thanks everyone