new driving standards

[cris_408518]

I realise that you are trying to make valid points, "claim" to have is though a little rude JohnL.

Having IAM,instructer, and other adavanced driving and riding qualifications does not make one a saint.

My 1st IAM bike test was done by the serving head of a county Police traffic bike division. Part of the test as you will see from others posting in this forum is related to "making progress", that means no dawdling, travelling at a decent speed and not hindering others etc, under Police instruction that also includes exceeding the speed limit where considered safe to pass other slower moving traffic or remove yourself from possible dangers.

Another police officer who trained me explained that any police officer who attempted to prosecute a biker for a safe fast overtaking manouveur whilst making good progress or to remove his/her self from possible danger "should be shot and was failing in his duty".

This doesn't mean that you race around over the limit like a banshee suicide pilot, but you don't sit behind granny doing 45 in a 60 limit or a caravanner under the limit, clearing the space behind them and making good progress was/is acceptable!

I also have to have medical to keep my competition licenses.

"the Law" is an ass at times and our speed limits often unrealistic. I expect you to be prosecuted for that bit of litter you dropped the other day or for all the other little laws you and many others break. Or are you 100% squeaky clean, take many a police officer away from his "PC" in public actions and get him talking openly and maay will tell you a few home truths.

Even the BBC broadcast a prog with officers saying that in good conditions they wouldn't even stop a driver doing upto 90mph and would give him a talking to between 90 and 100.

We often see figures on what people think of exceeding the speed limit, the % re for and against do not sit well with average driving speed on our motorways. All the saints muttering "well its the law you know" and monday morning they hit the M'Way and the law only applies to others as they take to the overtaking lane at 85mph +.

Scotch lad I think posted figures re speed and stopping distances produced by Volvo who sell a range of cars at present with top speeds starting from 115mph up to 155mph.

So safety mad Volvo are selling a range of dangerous killer vehicles are they?

Surely if I provide the ammo for your gun and you kill with it I'm as guilty as you! Volvo and others provide the ammo to the road users and higher speeds are considered safe elsewhere but a "100% DANGER" here in the UK.

If I break the law and I'm such a danger surely my vehicles manufacturer and my government are guilty for providing me with the weapon and opportunity and should be in the dock with me.

Apart from when they have to play the PC card and pander to the greens and do gooders the police are mainly realistic about reasonable speed and modern vehicles.

Stopping distances re speed are obvious, or do you drive the same distance behind the car in front of you John at 40 mph and 70mph. If you do you are breaking the laws re highway code, driving at 90 does not mean a driver is doing it the same distance behind a car as he does at 70 or 40 and nor that he is in 5pm traffic conditions. Your in built survival instincts will adjust distances and stopping times unless you are barmy.

Many people could drive an F1 car, but when racing you have to go against natural instincts to win!

If you break the law as per John L's book, surely prosecutions should be on an equal basis. That badly loaded Caravan, the light not working, a loose load restraint on a truck, traveling to close to the car in front, I could go on again.

Any obvious law breaking the police should stop and do the crims.

Speed and Reckless is an insult as well, if speed in itself is reckless why are the reckless manufacturers selling the goods with the approval of your Government?

 

[Geordie]

Cris, I agree with 99% of your last 2 posts, but the one thing I dont agree with is your comments about more police on the roads. Some of the problems we witness everyday by the ned-driver, wouldnt happen if more cops were about, especially on motorways where cameras seem to be replacing jam-jars, and in my opinion thats a no brainer. Good posts though keep em coming.

Geordie

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello cris,

I am sorry if my wording has caused offence. But try and view it from my perspective. In an earlier post you state that you have passed the advanced driving test. I have no way knowing if what you say is true or not, so I view it as a claim not a fact. No offence was intended.

As an advanced driver you should be increasingly aware of the disproportionate dangers of high-speed travel and the importance of good driving habits. You should plan a journey to keep within the law and that includes keeping to speed limits.

I am not quite sure why you have raised the new issue of 'making good progress'. I have not suggested that drivers should hinder others, by deliberately driving significantly below the speed limit, but at the same time that does not give Carte blanch to any other driver to exceed the speed limit.

Gatso's do not make any differentiation about overtaking or otherwise, why should they? I also doubt that a court would accept that overtaking permitted you to break the speed limit as mitigation. It should and must apply to police and other emergency vehicle drivers who are not on emergency calls.

The law may be an ass, but as long as it is the law, transgressions can be prosecuted. I agree that some speed limits are unreasonable, but we can't choose which laws to obey and those to ignore to suit ourselves. Civilisation cannot work like that.

Did the BBC programme suggest that it is all right to exceed the speed limit? NO. It shows the inadequacy of some officers who choose not to prosecute speeders. It would not be wise to assume that all officers are as lax about speeding. Some will prosecute. It also depends on which Police authority area you are in.

As for the percentages of the drivers who expressed a view, does not matter which day which of the week they choose to break the law?

I hold some convergence with you view about manufactures making cars with top speeds in excess of the national limit, Are they necessary? But it is the driver who holds the ultimate control of the right pedal.

I do not understand your reference to prosecutions being on an equal basis. You can expect to be prosecuted if you are detected breaking any law, faulty lighting, bad loading, dropping litter etc, why should speeding be any more or less prone to prosecution?

Speeding is not the behaviour of a civilised person. Excessive speeding is reckless, because it has so much more potential for things to wrong.

There is no justification for any member of the public to exceed the speed limit. Police officers must have very real grounds to speed, which is what this thread is all about.

 

[cris_408518]

You speak of respect John L but all though I have surely shown some open honest opinion that does not please all your response in that you don't know what I say is true or not leads to an assumption that I could be lying.

At least I have the respect to believe what you say is true.

Whilst making progress one would not be overtaking in the area of a Gatso that is supposed to be in a place of increased danger.

If all crimes were treated equally there would be as many other prosecutions for other driving misdemeanours as speeding.

As I said in another thread about a caravan that was overtaken by the police and ignored! It happens all the time that police take the easy option.

Traveling on the M25 and M4 today, I counted more travelling over my 70mph than at or below it! This is usual practice so not many side with your views.

Somebody suggested shopping all people speeding as they are law breakers.

So heres the scenario.

On Wednesday you and your family will be seen leaving your house and the Police have a limit to their resources! The call comes in that numerous motorists are criminals and breaking the speeding laws, at the same time a call comes into say your house is being burgled and your wife is being mugged at the local shops.

Now all thats going to happen is your house and a few material things are going to never be seen by you again and the rest of the place trashed, easily replaceable and it will only cost a bit of money by the time the insurance boys have wriggeld out of paying you the true worth. You wife is only going to shed a few tears and after a hospital check up, according to statistics she will generally only have some cuts and bruising and be a bit upset for some time but will heal eventually.

So as the police officer in charge based on your arguments re speed and the dangers involved with that, I will be ignoring the crimes against your family and getting all those reckless crims on the motorway.

You state that prosecutions are on an equal basis, so no doubt your wife and family will be chuffed to bits that the crims on the motorway got there just deserts whilst your lives were turned upside down.

Many choose to disobey laws on theft, violence and drugs yet you expect others to drive spot on 40 and 70. Get real!

 

[Jim.M_5040716]

Hi Craig,

You don't say how long you have been driving or what your qualifications are.

But reading through this subject I think you should all look at the DSA website And find out what the learners test is It is tougher than you might think.

I dout if any here would pass first time.

There are many sugestions but in reality unworkable.

Jim M

 

[ProfJohnL]

Cris,

It seems to me that you are suggesting that becuse the poice investigation resources are limited, and that if there is a low risk of detection then it is alright to speed or commit other crimes.

As for the apparent disproportionate numer of speeding prosecutions compared to other crimes, one has to understand the relative ease of gathering permissable evidence, with speeding it is relatively clear. Where as establishing if a load is unsafe is more subjective.

It has to pointed out though for every speeding conviction a crime has been committed.

Here is a simple question.

Are you telling everybody that it is ok to speed (i.e. exceed the legally set limit)?

 

[joeby]

i often wonder with all this bad driving on our roads ,why parents let young children play football on the roads ,today as i drove up a road near our house some children i guess about 8 years old were playing football in the middle of the road ,so i tooted the horn to let them know i was there ,but all i got was the middle finger salute ,so perhaps next time shouldnt i bother ,and yet there is a large park 100 yards away which was empty . and what about the kids delivering papers with no lights on there bikes not even a high viz vest ,i dont know how these shopkeepers or parents rest in the morning ,is there no health & safety for children ,oh forgot the health & safety dont start work till after 9am

 

[sparkes]

Joby

May I point out a mistake in your post

"health & safety dont start work till after 9am"

In my experience health & safety dont start work till after an accident.

 

[mcghee]

On the contrary Steve, Health and Safety are never off duty. I know of a HSE guy who condemmed the entrance hallway and staircase of a hotel in Torquay when he was on holiday. They're worse than traffic wardens! (No offence BobT), and lack of any kind of sense of humour is a job requirement.

 

[cris_408518]

JohnL as police resources are finite it is obvious and happens all the time that police have to prioritise. I like your Politician style response in avoiding answering the question ;-)

Obviousy the police would attend the Motorway not your family problems !

Well maybe not ;-)

All though you have ducked the question I will try and answer yours.

Telling somebody to break the law be it speeding or anything else I believe makes you a law breaker, so I would never do that.

It is easy for a police officer to stop a badly loaded vehicle, one with unsecure load or with lights not working, no masses of evidence required, the police some of who get paid by results for speeding fines choose to ignoor other laws broken!

I have just come in off the road where again most on the motorway are breaking the limit in places where traffic conditions were reasonable for a morning, this included at least 4 police cars and an ambulance and this is against my GPS speed that is far more accurate than a speedo.

It has been said for years that many speed limits are to low and unrealsitic for todays cars and roads when conditions are good.

Re your Questions and points made, it is illegal to partake in terrorist activity and commit murder. Your own present government has now turned a blind eye to these acts in relation to the Irish problems. It is illegal to take certain drugs, yet if the law even bothers stop a person, if they have under a certain ammount they will take no action all though possesion and use is illegal.

You see all though I believe it to be illegal for me to suggest that it is OK to break the speed laws. Your own government actions or lack of action re other crimes is indication that it is OK to challenge/interpret/break the law.

Common use in some circles re drugs has led to relaxation in prosecutions despite the devastation caused by people moving onto more dangerous drugs. I would hazard a guess that speeding is far more common place than drug taking according to regular motorway driving.

Police driving and other road users condones and sends a clear message that breaking the law is acceptable on many roads under certain conditions. Governments own action re terrorism, murder, drugs and other laws highlights the validity of some laws.

If you can't solve a problem, address it with training and education and by enforcing prosecutions that are accepted as being valid as safety measures instead of cash cow schemes such as many speed camera and police on bonus schemes.

 

[Keith_5094929]

hi there, yes i would agree that people dont observe and the lack of judgement is the major cause of accidents, but the comment about the modern test is complete rubbish, when was the last time you took a driving test, on average only 42% of test taken pass,the driving test now is harder than it ever has been, it people that have been driving for more years that need to be brought back into line, the better way to deal with this would be to make people further training for which when they reach the required standard they could be given a certificate from which they would get a discount from there insurance brokers.

 

[the other tom]

Steve regarding the P plate in Northern Ireland the R plate has been in force by law since the 1970s. The driver is restricted to 45 mph and not allowed out of the inside lane of a motorway unless they are overtaking a slower veh , and if my memory serves me correctly they are not allowed to tow a trailer either ,while the R is in force a period of 1 year . Ben

 

[sparkes]

Ben

Do you think it made a difference when this system was first used?

 

[the other tom]

Yes Steve i think it did, as a 16 year old on a motor cycle you new every police car ,motorcyclist would be watching you and only too willing to stop you , i had mates who went on to cars with the R plate you knew you where being watched . Dont get me wrong when the oppertunity arose i took it to go flyig off into the distance.Yes it did do me good . I think it should be brought into this country as soon as poss . Ben

 

[sparkes]

then it seems like there is a system that would work in this country. I wonder why the government has not bothered to look at it with all the accidents involving younger drivers here

Steve

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Cris,

I did not spot a question to be answered, unless it was to agree or disagree with your scenario of housebreaking & mugging vs speeding. This is your tactic to divert the debate away from the crux of the matter, which is why I suggest there is no legitimate need for any normal driver to exceed the speed limit, and if they do so they can expect to be prosecuted if detected. The same applies to any other offence.

If people accept this and have sufficient dread of the consequences then they will moderate their actions such as keeping within the speed limits. I.e. respect for the Law.

I stated that the crime must be detected, and how the police decide to deploy detection methods is up to them. How and if the police decide to prosecute is up to the CPS.

Your contention that some of the authorities tacitly condone some illegal acts is misguided, as given sufficient resource; the police (as the main line detection agency) would pursue all cases.

You have your views regarding speeding, and I have mine. We do not agree, but where as anyone following my advice will be immune from speeding, those following your understanding may find themselves up in front of the bench on a speeding charge.

I now withdraw from this correspondence with you.

 

[sparkes]

I think this is simple

the speed limit is a law, you wish to break the law then you must be ready to face the cost of doing so. detection is a different matter. One that I think needs addressing. Our kids school has a mobile camera outside its entrance. Put there to protect the kids (as stated in the planning permission). However, in the year is been there it has never been parked during school hours but is always there on a Sunday. This is a complete waste as it does nothing to protect my children.

Me, I very rarely go over the speed limit and NEVER in a 30 or 40 mph zone. Since I have had the Discovery, I am happy to trundle along a lower speeds as it is so relaxing to drive I feel no need to rush. Lots of 4x4 owners also make this remark. Maybe speeding has something to do with the environment of the car as well as the attitude of the driver

 

[Geordie]

Steve, you make a valid point regards driving a 4x4 and speed. I was in conversation with a female car salesperson on Fri, and we hit on the point of our driving styles since we both had become owners of a 4x4. Relaxed driving without the need or thought for heavy pedal action.

 

[sparkes]

I also own a MG ZT-T 190+, when I drive that I feel I am always under pressure to speed up. Maybe its the way the car feels, maybe its the attitude of other drivers, amybe its me, I don't know. What I am sure of is that the MG will be up for sale within 12 months and I will stay with the 4x4 just for the relaxed feeling of driving.

Steve

 

[Geordie]

I also have a GT TDI 130 Golf and its no mean slouch either, but my missus uses this now, and whenever I have a chance to drive it now I shake my head and say I wish we had taken the 4x4 instead. I would also bet there are the doubters out there who would change their tune if given time with a 4x4.

 

[Geordie]

With regards to this topic, I still think with more cops about, they would have an effect on the driving standards we see today. Lets face it, if there aint no threat, there aint no fear. I am all for cameras at blackspots, but as for the open road, cameras will never be as effective as blues-n-twos. Cameras are only worth a couple of hundred metres of safe driving, whereas a cop-car is on your ass for as long he wants.Also at present a camera doesnt know if you are banned, got tax, got insurance, bald tyres, drunk, etc etc. The older among us will know what your bum-cheeks felt like when you spotted the fuzz in your rear view mirror, even though you knew you had done nothing wrong, the threat of being stopped was there. So as far as I am concerned, changing the driving test or taking more of them is a waste of time, because it is not the driving that is wrong, and giving a ned a licence wont make him a saint, but a few more cops about and the threat is there.

 

[cris_408518]

Did early run to Portsmouth ferry terminal today, most drivers over the limit as usual.

Mention here of steady 4X4 drivers yet one of my main bugbears is disco drivers and other large 4X4 drivers rattling along up my exhaust as I pootle along at 70, being able to see over most things seems to get them frustrated behing my large mercs or vans.

If we lived in JohnL's fanciful ideal world there would be no need to have a police force.

We live in a real world where people for many reasons validate in their own minds reasons to break the law.

People have been breaking speeding laws for years and a vast majority do most days, other laws are changed as being unenforceable, yet motorists continue to be criminalised with often unrealsitic laws.

Even Caravan motorway speed was lifted to 60mph where car speed remains at 70.

It concerns me that some people with views like JohnL try and control others as they are so evangelical about the laws.

If Caravanners want a little more respect, some would do well to accept that others are in a hurry for some reason or another and in their minds the end reason legitimises their action be it within the law or not.

There are many factors to show that drivers can travel over the legal UK limits with relative safety.

Johns ideas on Police actions re prosecutions and the CPS is in the realms of fantasy land.

And generally people don't go before the bench for speeding!

No doubt John and others would rather see families broken with unemployment rather than accept that many are under immense pressure from employers to maintain schedules and hit targets.

Screaming and screaming about being within the law and legitimate reasons is not a lot of good when so many are over the limit! No doubt all those tens of thousands who have speed camera detectors and GPS downloads showing speed camera locations buy them for fun.

I'm not telling anyone to break the limits, but the facts are that common practice raises the lilely hood of more driving outside the law no matter who preaches "the law says" sermons!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jim.M

As it is well over 30 years since I passed my test, my own children are in the process of learning to drive. There is no doubt that the test is more demmanding now than it used to be, but in my view it still fails to cover issues that modern drivers face such as motorway driving and others.

The headline of this thread is "new driving standards", and it is interesting to read that most respondants belive there is room for improvement, though there is debate about the effectiveness of differing methodology.

 

[CliveV]

Hi cris

Why single out Discovery and 4x4 drivers? The "vehicles" that most often sit on my tail whilst i am doing 70 on the M3, M27 etc is the ubiqutous "White van man".

He may have a schedule to meet for his job but putting themselves and others at risk by bad driving (and by that i include breaking the speed limit) is grossly selfish.

I am lucky enough to have cruise control on my vehicle and it is REALLY GOOD!

Never thought much about it before - see thye speed signs - flick the "set" switch and your speed is maintained with no "creep".

Soooo Relaxing!

 

[sparkes]

I have to agree with CliveV. I almost never see bad driving by 4x4 owners but I see loads of company car owners driving like tomorrow is never going to happen. Its also interesting that the only accident I have had on a motorway was to be rear ended at high speed by a merc van with its driver talking on his mobile phone.

Interesting fact:

Over one third of all road traffic accidents, about 1,000 deaths a year, involve someone who is driving for work at the time.

While I was looking for the aboove facts I come across this!

Motorcyclists

693 motorcyclists were killed in road accidents in 2003

6,959 were seriously injured

Motorcyclists represent 1% of traffic but represent 20% of deaths and serious injuries

Motorcycle riders are 40 times more likely to be killed than car drivers

Pedestrians

774 pedestrians were killed in 2003

7,159 were seriously injured

Pedestrians represent 13% of all road casualties and 22% of all road deaths

ITS SAFER TO RIDE A MOTORBIKE TO WORK THAN IT IS TO WALK TO WORK!