No new diesel cars after 2030

[JezzerB]

Surely it's pretty simple we already have a huge network of number plate recognition cameras out there. add more to that, and charge per mile or road used. more for m ways perhaps the possibilities for the gov to make money are endless. The honest will pay others will steal or mask their plates and sometimes ???? Get caught just like users of red diesel and central heating oil etc now.

 

[JTQ]

The problem is there is no standard communications protocol set up, so vehicles produced up until now will not have the necessary automated communication that can be used to report the charging information back to HMRC.

That some vehicles predate modern requirements so can't be handled in the same way is not something new, nor unmanageable, one example, again on taxing being living with cars built before their carbon emission per km was measured.
They just put different rules in place for vehicles predating changes, not hobble moving forward because of history.

 

[otherclive]

I’m sure the Gov't has some thinktank looking at how to extract tax revenue from EV drivers. All we can do at this stage is to speculate. Hopefully they will announce what they are going to do before just applying it.

Charging for cars in the “new era” was started by the Treasury a couple of years ago seeking inputs from the various interested parties so work is ongoing. The Government are also looking at pricing carbon emissions more widely, and this could affect many more areas of our lives. At present only really intensive users are affected but when it moves into more areas it could affect domestic gas prices, and even meat and dairy too, in fact everything may have a carbon price attached, some may be insignificant others not so.

 

[Buckman]

Surely it's pretty simple we already have a huge network of number plate recognition cameras out there. add more to that, and charge per mile or road used. more for m ways perhaps the possibilities for the gov to make money are endless. The honest will pay others will steal or mask their plates and sometimes ???? Get caught just like users of red diesel and central heating oil etc now.

Then there will be those who simply cannot afford to pay the charge for the road toll a sit was perhaps more than expected and it was an emergency or they had to get to work.

 

[otherclive]

Then there will be those who simply cannot afford to pay the charge for the road toll a sit was perhaps more than expected and it was an emergency or they had to get to work.

But until it’s known what the pricing mechanism might be its purely speculation. When fuel prices shot up some years ago car usage went down by 10% so even when fuel prices go up some people find it harder to afford the running costs and reorder their priorities accordingly. No government can possibly mitigate for all outcomes especially when major changes are forthcoming.

 

[Raywood]

I think road pricing is inevitable and it is only a matter of how it works and the cost. There will have to be some form of tax on EV's and as many will be filling up these from their home a simple tax like petrol tax looks impossible.
My feeling is those that currently can use the old black and white plated will have to replace them with the new ones if that is how it works.

 

[JezzerB]

Then there will be those who simply cannot afford to pay the charge for the road toll a sit was perhaps more than expected and it was an emergency or they had to get to work.

What do they do now? ,No petrol no go, no insurance or tax, risk being caught.

 

[Buckman]

What do they do now? ,No petrol no go, no insurance or tax, risk being caught.

I think that sums it up. I have read that the number of untaxed vehicles on the road has increased since they scrapped the disc. Many years ago when we lived on an estate it was not uncommon to see vehicles with no road tax or VED been driven around the estate.

 

[Raywood]

The advent of more cameras does mean that having no tax and insurance is getting easier to spot for the police. Certainly with number plate recognition cameras mostly on motorways that can check, you are now going to find not taxing difficult to get away with. There are plenty of people trying it though and many will continue to do this.
Possibly the fines are no deterrent particularly no insurance as they are generally well below the cost of the insurance. They need to be over the premiums the driver would have paid to prevent them seeing fines as a cheap option.

 

[JezzerB]

And they'll definitely need to improve how they catch/prevent vehicle cloning and or number plate theft.

 

[otherclive]

The advent of more cameras does mean that having no tax and insurance is getting easier to spot for the police. Certainly with number plate recognition cameras mostly on motorways that can check, you are now going to find not taxing difficult to get away with. There are plenty of people trying it though and many will continue to do this.
Possibly the fines are no deterrent particularly no insurance as they are generally well below the cost of the insurance. They need to be over the premiums the driver would have paid to prevent them seeing fines as a cheap option.

The ANPR cameras are far more widespread than motorways. In our last house a neighbour had his new Navarra stolen. The ANPR cameras tracked it down a B road, onto the A4, A350 and eastwards onto the M4. When I drove the B road looking for the camera they were on a five way junction between two B roads and a minor A road.

 

[otherclive]

The advent of more cameras does mean that having no tax and insurance is getting easier to spot for the police. Certainly with number plate recognition cameras mostly on motorways that can check, you are now going to find not taxing difficult to get away with. There are plenty of people trying it though and many will continue to do this.
Possibly the fines are no deterrent particularly no insurance as they are generally well below the cost of the insurance. They need to be over the premiums the driver would have paid to prevent them seeing fines as a cheap option.

Some police forces will impound and crush a non insured vehicle depending on the circumstances.

 

[Buckman]

The advent of more cameras does mean that having no tax and insurance is getting easier to spot for the police. Certainly with number plate recognition cameras mostly on motorways that can check, you are now going to find not taxing difficult to get away with. There are plenty of people trying it though and many will continue to do this.
Possibly the fines are no deterrent particularly no insurance as they are generally well below the cost of the insurance. They need to be over the premiums the driver would have paid to prevent them seeing fines as a cheap option.

It is easy to spot the offender, but in the meantime they are still on the road until apprehended by the police which could be days, weeks or even months.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Moving back towards the title of this thread, I know there have been a number of readers who might feel the benefits of moving towards EV's are not justified becasue the power needed to charge the cars has to be generated, so they often claim the generation of power is simply moving the pollution to the power stations, and what about the pollution caused by mining the materials for the batteries etc, whilst ignoring the environmental costs of obtaining the petroleum for their cars......

You might find this 14Min Youtube production informative.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk-LnUYEXuM

 

[JezzerB]

From yesterday. Might quieten the doomsayers. So many conflicting reports.

Fossil fuel cars make 'hundreds of times' more waste than electric cars

Analysis by transport group says battery electric vehicles are superior to their petrol and diesel counterparts

www.theguardian.com

Have to say sadly green living was bottom of the pile when we bought our Mini in November. We had a 36k JCW clubman sitting on the drive doing 5000miles a year. Depreciating fast. Two and a 1/2 years in worth 22k. We swapped it for the ev for 3kafter px(we buy any car beat Minis p x actually) and will no get 130-140mpg equivalent based on our current electricity provider instead of 34 in the clubby and it's far more fun to drive.

 

[Buckman]

Here is an interesting article and challenges the Maths geniuses amongst us to work out how mcu it does cost to run an EV per mile in comparison to a simialr size petrol engine.

As an engineer I love the electric vehicle technology However, I have been troubled for a long time by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited,

A friend sent me the following that says it very well. IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE PETROL OR DIESEL, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A) FUEL TAX ON EVERY LITRE THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying a hybrid or an electric car: Ever since the advent of electric cars, THE REAL COST PER MILE OF THOSE THINGS HAS NEVER BEEN DISCUSSED. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I've ever seen and tells the story pretty much as I expected it to.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet they are being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and maths to paper.

At a neighbourhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbour, an Executive in the industry. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

THIS IS THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM WITH ELECTRIC VEHICLES. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an OOPS...! and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve petrol engine. "Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

Now the interesting part for the maths geniuses amongst us. Work out what you pay approximately for a kwh and how much it costs you to recharge the battery. Then work out the cost per mile and compare it with a similar petrol engine

The petrol powered car costs about £25,000 while the EV will probably cost £46,000 or more. So the British Government wants loyal subjects not to do the maths, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that probably costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

 

[JTQ]

I take it you are not totally convinced by EVs then?

 

[Buckman]

I take it you are not totally convinced by EVs then?

Is anyone?

 

[JezzerB]

I am! We have one-it's amazing-sorry-it is the future-as for road fees-we'll be paying per use per mile very soon -instead of fuel tax-mind that may rise to combat fossil fuel drivers. As for 75 amps at home for a tesla-that is for a rapid charger surely and of course most charge overnight on reduced tariffs because demand is so light after midnight-a 7.5kw charger charges overnight-which is what most people use-fast chargers are generally roadside use. BUT agreed we have to get realistic-we need to improve our infrastructure. My spreadsheet takes into account cost of petrol v my unit charge of electricity at home-and we're doing 140mpg at the mo as petrol rises and my unit price is fixed till November!

 

[Buckman]

I am! We have one-it's amazing-sorry-it is the future-as for road fees-we'll be paying per use per mile very soon -instead of fuel tax-mind that may rise to combat fossil fuel drivers. As for 75 amps at home for a tesla-that is for a rapid charger surely and of course most charge overnight on reduced tariffs because demand is so light after midnight-a 7.5kw charger charges overnight-which is what most people use-fast chargers are generally roadside use. BUT agreed we have to get realistic-we need to improve our infrastructure. My spreadsheet takes into account cost of petrol v my unit charge of electricity at home-and we're doing 140mpg at the mo as petrol rises and my unit price is fixed till November!

However what is the cost per mile as using mpg is not in the equation? To get a better idea of cost per mile I would think that one would need to take into account the difference in cost between the EV and the equivalent petrol or diesel vehicle and the cost of charging the vehicle. An EV is probably okay around town, but not long distance or towing.
I still need to be convinced that electric cars are the future. Somehow I doubt it as the electric mainly still needs to come from fossil fuels. There is probably an alternative, but we have not found it yet.

 

[JTQ]

Is anyone?

Well, I am absolutely convinced we can't go on as we are, that is if we have any concern about the planet we leave to future generations.

I am far from convinced that recharged EVs in the carrying "batteries" sense, is the way to go, and feel it is unfortunately being overly "encouraged" on many fronts. Chasing things without thinking them through.
A cycle ride through the terraced back streets of Portsmouth with both sides lined with cars hints at the absurdity of recharging any EVs replacing these.
But we can't keep burning non replaceable, non renewables, even that definition ought to make the point self-evident.

 

[JezzerB]

Ok we paid 25000 for our L1 Mini ev after the government grant. One of the very few EVs whose equivalent petrol Mini, the Cooper S is also 23400-25000 so nigh on exactly the same price-that's why we bought it. If you look at equipment-the 25k is close -so it is exactly the same price-on paper the ev is 0.3 s slower-in the real world it is quicker-believe me! My charging costs work out at almost exactly 4p per mile-if we don't go and charge for free at Tesco-and we are on a fixed deal with electricity-Octopus for eg have GO where you have 4 hours night time unit price of 5p-so we will be saving even more in October whe our deal ends. Insurance was slightly cheaper (£50)down from £250 to £200 and servicing is £200 every 2 years instead of £200 2nd year £500 every other-ie major service. Same size tyres=don't expect to need brake pads for ages-they'll corrode before they wear as regen means I hardly ever touch the brakes-except to clean them up! It is at the moment a total no brainer-oh and no road tax.

And on a bright sunny windy day most of the uk energy is generated from solar and wind!

 

[Buckman]

I doubt very much if most of UK energy is generated from solar and wind on a sunny windy day. If so how much fossil fuel was used to build, transport, erect and maintain these monstrosities that blight the countryside?

I know it is the Daily Mail but the article is interesting. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...new-hybrid-car-isnt-nearly-green-thought.html

 

[JezzerB]

Hybrids aren't -especially the Toyota route-the non plug in hybrid-they give eco figures along the lines of a good diesel-and I really can't see the point. With plug in hybrids or PHEVs they need to be used as intended-charged at all times from a socket, and only running on fossil fuels on longer trips-for the average user they are great but for business people doing miles-not so good-yet of course the tax system has been heavily supporting their purchase for these very users-crazy

I don't mind turbines-there are two on our door step-and I wrote in support of the planning application and am very glad I did-they don't intrude, and they look far nicer than a radio /telecoms mast or pylon and do some good, but some do of course.

Renewable generation comprised 40.2 per cent of total generation, slightly less than the fossil fuel share at 42.5 per cent. Nuclear generation fell by 20 per cent in Q3 2020 compared to the previous year, as just 10.9 TWh was generated by nuclear power, the lowest value in the published time series

Another report; Renewables accounted for record 47% of UK generation in first quarter of 2020. Renewable energy accounted for almost half of the UK's electricity generation between January and March 2020, it has been revealed

TBH am glad re nuclear-the waste of that is a nightmare. We're getting there in terms of renewables.

As you can see, am totally converted-and if we could afford to swap our Navara for a Telsa X we would-and tow our Bucanneer with that so that I could report back -sadly it's far too pricey which is of course a huge problem at the moment but is improving week on week with new vehicles arriving a pace!

 

[otherclive]

From yesterday. Might quieten the doomsayers. So many conflicting reports.

Fossil fuel cars make 'hundreds of times' more waste than electric cars

Analysis by transport group says battery electric vehicles are superior to their petrol and diesel counterparts

www.theguardian.com

Have to say sadly green living was bottom of the pile when we bought our Mini in November. We had a 36k JCW clubman sitting on the drive doing 5000miles a year. Depreciating fast. Two and a 1/2 years in worth 22k. We swapped it for the ev for 3kafter px(we buy any car beat Minis p x actually) and will no get 130-140mpg equivalent based on our current electricity provider instead of 34 in the clubby and it's far more fun to drive.

For interest what are the fixed price service costs for the EV Mini compared to your previous petrol one.