No new diesel cars after 2030

Page 20 - Passionate about caravans & motorhome? Join our community to share that passion with a global audience!
Nov 11, 2009
22,261
7,387
50,935
Visit site
My feeling is that manufacturers only offer warranties because the others do and without one you would not buy it. Buyers look at the length and not the detail so people are impressed with some until they need to claim and see the restrictions. Things like caravan ones excluding the front and rear panels and a lot more after a year in a three year guarantee, make them almost worthless for many. You still have rights against the dealer assuming they are still there but this is not publicised.
My Bailey and Sprite both had front and or rear panels replaced under warranty. Bailey front and rear, Swift rear at year 5. So I’m puzzled by your comment.
 
Mar 14, 2005
18,300
3,587
50,935
Visit site
Prof raises an interesting point about Dealerships. It is true that certain items we buy say return direct to manufacturer if faulty. Dyson for example actively encourage you to buy from them direct. Cars must be different . Whilst at the Glasgow museum of Transport the other year I noticed a dealerships name . Arnold Clark started his car chain in 1954. I can’t recall if was ever possible to buy direct from the Caravan manufacturer? Whatever I believe we can rest assure the CRA15 will protect us.
The only time I have seen a manufacturer encouraging an end user to return faulty goods direct to the manufacturer are where the manufacturer sells direct - and that makes them the seller and thus subject to the controls of consumer legislation.
 
Mar 14, 2005
18,300
3,587
50,935
Visit site
My Bailey and Sprite both had front and or rear panels replaced under warranty. Bailey front and rear, Swift rear at year 5. So I’m puzzled by your comment.
I don't know exactly which manufacturers Ray is referring to, but we have seen comments in the forum and elsewhere, where some caravan manufacturers have vigorously denied liability for some panel failures within their T&C's, but it may well depend on individual circumstances.
 
Nov 11, 2009
22,261
7,387
50,935
Visit site
I don't know exactly which manufacturers Ray is referring to, but we have seen comments in the forum and elsewhere, where some caravan manufacturers have vigorously denied liability for some panel failures within their T&C's, but it may well depend on individual circumstances.
It’s quite common for insurance backed warranties offered with pre owned caravans to exclude front and rear panels and exterior plastic/ composite items in general. Mine did on the current van, but fortunately it had a full Swift service history and it was still under the makers five year warranty. Had absolutely no problem with Swift authorising the work.
 
Jan 31, 2018
1,783
850
5,935
Visit site
Ray that's not entirely true or else they'd all be doing the same but Bailey only do 6years on water ingress, and cars are so very different. Kia 7Hyundai same company, 5, Nissan 5 Most German makes 3etc.
 
Jun 20, 2005
18,435
4,256
50,935
Visit site
My projector night alarm clock says do not return to seller if faulty. contact manufacturer direct.
Clive , you have now introduced another type of warranty, insurance backed. I’d been thinking about the warranty / guarantee from new sponsored by the manufacturer.
Maybe we do need a new thread. Some very interesting good views aired but nothing to do with EV or ICE.
Damian /Parksy🤔🤔🤔🤔
 
  • Like
Reactions: JezzerB
Nov 11, 2009
22,261
7,387
50,935
Visit site
My projector night alarm clock says do not return to seller if faulty. contact manufacturer direct.
Clive , you have now introduced another type of warranty, insurance backed. I’d been thinking about the warranty / guarantee from new sponsored by the manufacturer.
Maybe we do need a new thread. Some very interesting good views aired but nothing to do with EV or ICE.
Damian /Parksy🤔🤔🤔🤔
Dusty I only dropped that one in as I thought that is what Ray was addressing. I’m over on warranty know 😂
 
Nov 16, 2015
11,301
3,550
40,935
Visit site
Mazda, MX 30 , EV mileage range 130, , thats in the summer, no use to me. Lovely looking runaround. I wonder what that is in he winter using heater and lights, I don't want to be bothered to Google it.
 
Jan 31, 2018
1,783
850
5,935
Visit site
Oh no cars are equally affected, our Mini says140but mid winter we were 94and it's now 103-4 but it depends too on how you drive it and I am enjoying it far too much to drive it economically!!! Plus we do short distances . It's just like petrol ,drive short distances or lots of accelerating and braking it consumes more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: otherclive
Jul 18, 2017
14,194
4,222
40,935
Visit site
Oh no cars are equally affected, our Mini says140but mid winter we were 94and it's now 103-4 but it depends too on how you drive it and I am enjoying it far too much to drive it economically!!! Plus we do short distances . It's just like petrol ,drive short distances or lots of accelerating and braking it consumes more.
As matter of interest does using the heating or air con have a big effect on the range i.e. if you were travelling from Birmingham to London.
 
Jan 31, 2018
1,783
850
5,935
Visit site
Putting our aircon on drops the range by exactly 4miles this morning. Just checked . If you want to max the range green plus mode adds to it by reducing all non essential electrics ie switches heated seats and aircon off.

Reading your article Clive at headlines only they seem to be massively exaggerating its effect. Cold weather does reduce battery range but between 2and 14degrees we lose about 6miles too but you can warm the car while plugged in to the mains using that instead of the battery to get it toasty or cool before setting off.
 
Mar 14, 2005
18,300
3,587
50,935
Visit site
There is no doubt that using either heating or AC in EV's does make a noticeable difference to the available range of the car. Whether is fair to describe it as a "major issue" will depend on your point of view, however using AC is as much of an issue in ICE vehicles if you look at how it affects MPG. It's not noticed as much becasue ICE vehicles presently do have a better overall range, so its less obvious how using AC does affect the car. But as its energy usage and that energy is sourced from the fuel used there is a cost for both ICE and EV owners.

There is no doubt that needing to heat or cool and EV's cabin does use battery resources, but I, and other web based sites were practical experience has garnered evidence disagree with the 50-60% percentage losses suggested in the paper OC points to.

We need to consider heating and cooling separately.

Heating the cabin needs a source of heat. Conveniently becasue ICE engines throw away 60 to 80% of the energy in the fuel as waste heat there's plenty to grab. Unfortunately becasue EV's one lose about 10% of the battery energy, and it's not always easy to harvest it many EV's need to use direct heating elements run from the battery. As we know present day EV's have a more limited range the ICE, so any additional drain on the battery can make an appreciable difference.

However an increasing number of EV's are using air heat recovery systems, which effectively uses an Air Conditioning system working in reverse, where the system drags heat out of the exterior ambient air and pumps it into the car. Using such systems its entirely possible to use 1kWh electrical energy to scavenge 2to 3kWh of heat from the outside and this can make quite a difference and reduces the loss of range - still not as good as ICE heater, from the cars performance. but streets better than burning fossile fuels in and ICE to produce waste heat.

The story is differnt for Air Conditioning (AC) to cool the cabin, and in fact the roles are slightly reversed. AC uses mechanical energy either from an electric motor to drive the AC's compressor or as a belt driven take off from the ICE. Either way for an ICE vehicle that mechanical energy is derived from the IC engine, and that means it is just as wasteful of fuel. If the ICE uses an electric motor driven compressor, then you have the additional losses associated with the cars alternator etc. The engine power used by the AC can be felt when its turned on, and the engine reacts to the load. This load needs to be fuelled so either you accept lowered performance from your vehicle or use more throttle thus more fuel. This hits MPG and of course costs more. The effect is even more noticeable in smaller engined cars.

In addition, as the IC engine and exhaust is close to the cabin in most cars, the fact they are hot it will add heat to the cabin which the AC is asked to remove, so its very likely AC in an ICE will have to work harder or longer than in the equivalent EV.

In the EV, the AC will have a dedicated motor which is inherently more efficient than the ICE system. Because EV's produce so little excess heat, the cabins are inherently cooler, so the AC has less work to do thus saving battery usage.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tobes and JezzerB
Jan 31, 2018
1,783
850
5,935
Visit site
Nice post Prof. Our Mini has air source hest pump and I don't find
4miles an issue to heat the car but if you do the electric motor does give some heat so to gain 4miles you won't freeze!
 
Nov 11, 2009
22,261
7,387
50,935
Visit site
Putting our aircon on drops the range by exactly 4miles this morning. Just checked . If you want to max the range green plus mode adds to it by reducing all non essential electrics ie switches heated seats and aircon off.

Reading your article Clive at headlines only they seem to be massively exaggerating its effect. Cold weather does reduce battery range but between 2and 14degrees we lose about 6miles too but you can warm the car while plugged in to the mains using that instead of the battery to get it toasty or cool before setting off.
Being SAE they were looking at quite low ambient temperatures down to -18 deg C. Being so large the US ownership will see bigger temperature extremes than we would. But even so Europe will see a wide range from Scandinavia to the Mediterranean.
 
Mar 14, 2005
18,300
3,587
50,935
Visit site
There's no denying the load that cabin heating or cooling adds to the power usage in an EV is a concern, primarily because we don't have batteries at the moment that match the range of the fuel in many ICE vehicles. As I explained above even ICE vehicles need to find the energy to provide these services, its just that generally people don't notice how much energy (Fuel) they use becasue they don't have range anxiety

Once or if we find systems that can store up to 500miles range, or we have access to reasonably fast charging this particular issue won't have the same headline attention.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JezzerB
Jun 20, 2005
18,435
4,256
50,935
Visit site
From what I read Sub zero temps result in a 41 % reduction in range , whilst at 95deg F using air con reduces range by 17%.. Not good but I expect by 2030 some kind of chemical heating and chilling will have been invented. Eg a window winder handle🤪🤪
 
Mar 14, 2005
18,300
3,587
50,935
Visit site
From what I read Sub zero temps result in a 41 % reduction in range , whilst at 95deg F using air con reduces range by 17%.. Not good but I expect by 2030 some kind of chemical heating and chilling will have been invented. Eg a window winder handle🤪🤪

Again those figures seem higher than many I've seen, and of course it does depend on teh conditions at the time.

Chemical heating - now that's not such a bad idea. There are some salts where they can be heated and the turn from the solid to a liquid, and they can absorb quite a lot of heat energy in the process but the temperatures are quite high. Keep them in a well insulated container and they will retain there heat for many hours. When you need to heat the cabin, blow some air across the container and it will heat up. It may need to be mixed with cold to get the ideal temperature.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JezzerB
Jul 18, 2017
14,194
4,222
40,935
Visit site
There is no doubt that using either heating or AC in EV's does make a noticeable difference to the available range of the car. Whether is fair to describe it as a "major issue" will depend on your point of view, however using AC is as much of an issue in ICE vehicles if you look at how it affects MPG. It's not noticed as much becasue ICE vehicles presently do have a better overall range, so its less obvious how using AC does affect the car. But as its energy usage and that energy is sourced from the fuel used there is a cost for both ICE and EV owners.

There is no doubt that needing to heat or cool and EV's cabin does use battery resources, but I, and other web based sites were practical experience has garnered evidence disagree with the 50-60% percentage losses suggested in the paper OC points to.

We need to consider heating and cooling separately.

Heating the cabin needs a source of heat. Conveniently becasue ICE engines throw away 60 to 80% of the energy in the fuel as waste heat there's plenty to grab. Unfortunately becasue EV's one lose about 10% of the battery energy, and it's not always easy to harvest it many EV's need to use direct heating elements run from the battery. As we know present day EV's have a more limited range the ICE, so any additional drain on the battery can make an appreciable difference.

However an increasing number of EV's are using air heat recovery systems, which effectively uses an Air Conditioning system working in reverse, where the system drags heat out of the exterior ambient air and pumps it into the car. Using such systems its entirely possible to use 1kWh electrical energy to scavenge 2to 3kWh of heat from the outside and this can make quite a difference and reducesthe loss of range - still not as good as ICE heater, from the cars performance. but streets better than burning fossile fuels in and ICE to produce waste heat.
Thank you for elaborating and hopefully you can help expand on the above article which answere a number of questions. Would I be correct in thinking that at temperatures of minus 10 -11C these air heat systems become ineffective? We have air source heating at home and if the temperature dropped below minus 11C no heating. I appreciate that it is not very often in the UK temperatures drop down to minus 11C or more, but if ou factor in the wind chill there may be the possibility.
We also have the issue of the system icing over at temperatures of zero, it then has to defrost itself to become effective again and to defrost requires energy.
Do you have any idea how they get around extreme cold temperatures?
 
Last edited:

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts