No new diesel cars after 2030

[Buckman]

In the EV, the AC will have a dedicated motor which is inherently more efficient than the ICE system. Because EV's produce so little excess heat, the cabins are inherently cooler, so the AC has less work to do thus saving battery usage.

Most cars you are well insulated from heat from the engine. When you sit in a car without the engine running, the heat build up is greater than normal. I would think that if moving and the sun is shining through the glass even in winter it feels a lot warmer whether an ICE or EV the effect will be the same the air con has to work harder.

 

[otherclive]

Thank you for elaborating and hopefully you can help expand on the above article which answere a number of questions. Would I be correct in thinking that at temperatures of minus 10 -11C these air heat systems become ineffective? We have air source heating at home and if the temperature dropped below minus 11C no heating. I appreciate that it is not very often in the UK temperatures drop down to minus 11C or more, but if ou factor in the wind chill there may be the possibility.
We also have the issue of the system icing over at temperatures of zero, it then has to defrost itself to become effective again and to defrost requires energy.
Do you have any idea how they get around extreme cold temperatures?

Didn’t we have a long thread quite a while back on domestic heat pump systems. Might be worth as watch. With current technology I think the only realistic answer is to use supplemental electric or gas heating during such periods.

 

[Buckman]

Didn’t we have a long thread quite a while back on domestic heat pump systems. Might be worth as watch. With current technology I think the only realistic answer is to use supplemental electric or gas heating during such periods.

My post was in relation to heating in an EV and I used domestic air source heating as a reference. You probably cannot use gas heating in an EV?

 

[Darren.H]

My thoughts are diesel fuel will attract higher tax at the pump, in a way its already happening.
When I went to a petrol car diesel fuel was 5p a litre more than petrol, it used to be the other way around not that many years ago.

 

[RogerL]

My thoughts are diesel fuel will attract higher tax at the pump, in a way its already happening.
When I went to a petrol car diesel fuel was 5p a litre more than petrol, it used to be the other way around not that many years ago.

The tax on petrol and diesel is still equal at present - it's market demand that alters the price differential between the two

 

[otherclive]

The tax on petrol and diesel is still equal at present - it's market demand that alters the price differential between the two

Our diesel always seems as if it has been priced higher than petrol. Yet in those far off days if yore diesel in Europe was cheaper than petrol. Yet particularly in France there always seemed a predominance of diesel cars.

 

[RogerL]

Our diesel always seems as if it has been priced higher than petrol. Yet in those far off days if yore diesel in Europe was cheaper than petrol. Yet particularly in France there always seemed a predominance of diesel cars.

For a long time, diesel was very low tax in France hence the popularity of diesels there - at that time UK diesel was lower tax than petrol but not nearly as low as France - since then both UK and France have increased the tax on diesel.

When diesel cars started to become popular in the UK, the refineries couldn't vary then petrol-diesel mix so there was a shortage of diesel which pushed the price up - as diesel cars drop in popularity, demand for diesel will drop which should reduce the price but no doubt politicians will step in to tack up the slack with more tax!

 

[JezzerB]

Our Mini has an electric heater and can also use residual heat from the motor just like an ice vehicle. No issues there.

 

[JezzerB]

R
Air conditioning and heat pump. All trim levels of the new MINI Cooper SE includes a 2-zone automatic air conditioning system with separate ventilation and temperature control for the driver and front passenger sides. The interior is heated by means of a heat pump which collects waste heat from the motor, drive control, high-voltage battery and outside air before feeding it into the air conditioning system.

The heat pump developed for the new MINI Cooper SE is particularly efficient. It uses 75% less energy than a conventional electric heating system and provides a high level of climate comfort in winter mode. In order to increase range, the cooling and heating circuits are directly linked to the drive technology, forming a highly efficient overall system. An integrated control system guarantees a pleasant interior temperature and an ideal operating temperature for the high-voltage battery at the same time—independently of each other, by means of cooling and heating.

The automatic air conditioning of the new MINI Cooper SE also offers an auxiliary heating and a stationary air conditioning function. This enables the interior to be heated up or cooled down to a specified temperature before setting off. The driver can use the MINI Connected Remote App to set the intended time of departure so as to pre-condition the interior in advance as required.

 

[otherclive]

R
Air conditioning and heat pump. All trim levels of the new MINI Cooper SE includes a 2-zone automatic air conditioning system with separate ventilation and temperature control for the driver and front passenger sides. The interior is heated by means of a heat pump which collects waste heat from the motor, drive control, high-voltage battery and outside air before feeding it into the air conditioning system.

The heat pump developed for the new MINI Cooper SE is particularly efficient. It uses 75% less energy than a conventional electric heating system and provides a high level of climate comfort in winter mode. In order to increase range, the cooling and heating circuits are directly linked to the drive technology, forming a highly efficient overall system. An integrated control system guarantees a pleasant interior temperature and an ideal operating temperature for the high-voltage battery at the same time—independently of each other, by means of cooling and heating.

The automatic air conditioning of the new MINI Cooper SE also offers an auxiliary heating and a stationary air conditioning function. This enables the interior to be heated up or cooled down to a specified temperature before setting off. The driver can use the MINI Connected Remote App to set the intended time of departure so as to pre-condition the interior in advance as required.

Thanks for the post. Clearly the Mini, and I guess other EV makers have designed the whole car as a system to maximise energy efficiency and range. Having it pre warmed in cold weather is a bonus, no more scraping ice off of the windscreen. My old VW 411 did that but using its petrol to heat the car via an auxiliary heater and a timer.

Years ago I did some work with heat pipes where a flexible pipe can take heat to cool an area and transport the energy to a location where the heat can be rejected. The fluid then returned to the area requiring cooling. They could also work in reverse and had no moving parts.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Would I be correct in thinking that at temperatures of minus 10 -11C these air heat systems become ineffective? We have air source heating at home and if the temperature dropped below minus 11C no heating. I appreciate that it is not very often in the UK temperatures drop down to minus 11C or more, but if ou factor in the wind chill there may be the possibility.
We also have the issue of the system icing over at temperatures of zero, it then has to defrost itself to become effective again and to defrost requires energy.
Do you have any idea how they get around extreme cold temperatures?

Air source heating does become less effective as the ambient air temperatures fall, but the precise point at which they would stop working is dependant on the design of the system and the refrigerant used in it.

At sub freezing temperatures there is a probability the external evaporator coil can begin to ice up, and it will need to be defrosted from time to time. That will require some input of energy to achieve it, but how much again depends on the design and the conditions at the time.

However as the prime reason for air source heating is to take low grade heat from the large volume of air passing through the evaporator and to turn it into higher grade heat in the condenser coil, the system has already created savings of both energy and cost of energy. The defrost systems usually reverses the thermal ladder and will use some of the low cost heat it has already produced to defrost the external coil. This does have the effect of lowering the overall energy efficiency of teh system but usually it is still a net benefit.

Wind chill is often misunderstood. When you watch the weather forecast the reporter will sometimes say temperature will be 3C but becasue of the wind it will feel more like freezing due to the wind chill .

The temperature of the air has not changed, what changes is the amount of heat stripped away from our skin because a greater quantity of air comes into contact and draws more heat energy away from us. Its the sensation of loosing more heat which makes feel it might be cooler than it actually is.

In terms of air source heating, having a wind presenting more air volume to the evaporator coil is actually a good thing as it is offering up the potential for more heat recovery.

How effective air sourced heating is does depend on the prevailing environmental conditions and thus it may be better suited to some climates than others.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Most cars you are well insulated from heat from the engine. When you sit in a car without the engine running, the heat build up is greater than normal. I would think that if moving and the sun is shining through the glass even in winter it feels a lot warmer whether an ICE or EV the effect will be the same the air con has to work harder.

I disagree I cannot think of any ICE car I've been in where if you touched the inside of the bulk head or transmission /exhaust tunnel after the cars bee running for a short while where it isn't warmer than areas that are not exposed to those sources. If its warmer, its transferring heat to the cabin.

Just think about it logically, If you've been running and ICE car for even just few minutes, and you open the bonnet, as soon as you do you can feel the hot air rising out of the engine bay. When the engine its heat is passed into the cooling system, which usually has a big radiator and fan at the front of the vehicle, and when teh fan operates it blows the radiator air into the engine bay which includes the main bulkhead. The bulk head gets warmed and transfers some of the heat to the passenger compartment.

The bulk heads are as you say "insulated", these are usually reflective foil, which reflects away the strongest infra red heating, but does very little to prevent warm air heating raising its temperature.

I never quantified the amount, but bearing in mind the surface area, it would only need a 5 or 10C raised temperature to be be transferring in the order of a total of 500 to 1000W total heat transfer into the cabin.

In hot weather that is an additional 500 to 1000W (Approximately) the ICE air con has to deal with that EV's simply don't have.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Our Mini has an electric heater and can also use residual heat from the motor just like an ice vehicle. No issues there.

Hi John,

Thanks for this and your following post also.

This is good news, and it shows that even though the much higher efficiency of EV's it is possible to get some of the heat generated in the motor, and battery to be used for cabin heating.

Yet another positive for EV's. We're not home a dry yet, but it shows that each challenge is being addressed and ways found to manage, reduce or overcome them.

Here in the UK, the evolution towards 2030 still has a long way to go to make EV usage truly a practical replacement for ICE vehicles. Things are improving, but especially the charging network is shambolic and it needs to get its self sorted so that its as easy to access as conventional petrol stations. There needs to be more of them, especially able to fast charge.

But its also going to need drivers to accept they will need to change some of their habits and perhaps expectations. Planning routes to include place and time for recharging and charging at destination etc.

All new housing with off street parking should be required to have solar panels, and a home battery to store energy, and a charge point for and EV. And existing should upgrade to add them.

Businesses should also do the same for staff and clients and customers.

 

[otherclive]

Hi John,

Thanks for this and your following post also.

This is good news, and it shows that even though the much higher efficiency of EV's it is possible to get some of the heat generated in the motor, and battery to be used for cabin heating.

Yet another positive for EV's. We're not home a dry yet, but it shows that each challenge is being addressed and ways found to manage, reduce or overcome them.

Here in the UK, the evolution towards 2030 still has a long way to go to make EV usage truly a practical replacement for ICE vehicles. Things are improving, but especially the charging network is shambolic and it needs to get its self sorted so that its as easy to access as conventional petrol stations. There needs to be more of them, especially able to fast charge.

But its also going to need drivers to accept they will need to change some of their habits and perhaps expectations. Planning routes to include place and time for recharging and charging at destination etc.

All new housing with off street parking should be required to have solar panels, and a home battery to store energy, and a charge point for and EV. And existing should upgrade to add them.

Businesses should also do the same for staff and clients and customers.

I find it odd that given the push for carbon neutrality new houses are not required to have solar panels/ and or solar water heating. Where we previously lived a small development of housing association homes had both. But where we are now a brand new development of such homes have nothing.
Even if the battery banks aren’t fitted yet a “ for but not with” approach could be adopted and if it’s not practicable in each home, a communal battery bank pre wired could be an option.

 

[Buckman]

I find it odd that given the push for carbon neutrality new houses are not required to have solar panels/ and or solar water heating. Where we previously lived a small development of housing association homes had both. But where we are now a brand new development of such homes have nothing.
Even if the battery banks aren’t fitted yet a “ for but not with” approach could be adopted and if it’s not practicable in each home, a communal battery bank pre wired could be an option.

Our roof faces east/west so no good having solar panels fitted as they would be inefficient taking into account costs especially in the winter months.
Many years ago I saw a BBQ that used a solar panel to cook meat however you had to be very careful when cooking otherwise you ended up with cinder.

 

[RogerL]

I disagree I cannot think of any ICE car I've been in where if you touched the inside of the bulk head or transmission /exhaust tunnel after the cars bee running for a short while where it isn't warmer than areas that are not exposed to those sources. If its warmer, its transferring heat to the cabin.

Just think about it logically, If you've been running and ICE car for even just few minutes, and you open the bonnet, as soon as you do you can feel the hot air rising out of the engine bay. When the engine its heat is passed into the cooling system, which usually has a big radiator and fan at the front of the vehicle, and when teh fan operates it blows the radiator air into the engine bay which includes the main bulkhead. The bulk head gets warmed and transfers some of the heat to the passenger compartment.

The bulk heads are as you say "insulated", these are usually reflective foil, which reflects away the strongest infra red heating, but does very little to prevent warm air heating raising its temperature.

I never quantified the amount, but bearing in mind the surface area, it would only need a 5 or 10C raised temperature to be be transferring in the order of a total of 500 to 1000W total heat transfer into the cabin.

In hot weather that is an additional 500 to 1000W (Approximately) the ICE air con has to deal with that EV's simply don't have.

There is of course a significant difference in the heat generated by diesels compared to petrols - so much so that some diesels are almost impossible to warm up properly in winter.

 

[JezzerB]

I wholeheartedly agree every new build should have as building regs solar panels-they don't have to be direct into the sun these days and costs are around 4k for a system -should be law!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Roger L wrote

There is of course a significant difference in the heat generated by diesels compared to petrols - so much so that some diesels are almost impossible to warm up properly in winter.

Whilst this may be true, and just shows there can be exceptions to almost every general statement, But I have to assume the problem goes away in warmer times. But even just a warm engine will raise the temperature of the bulkhead and it will add to the load if the AC is turned on.

The discussion point in my post was the use of AC to cool a cabin, which is far less likely in cool winter conditions.

 

[Buckman]

We have our air con working during the summer and winter.

 

[otherclive]

Roger L wrote


Whilst this may be true, and just shows there can be exceptions to almost every general statement, But I have to assume the problem goes away in warmer times. But even just a warm engine will raise the temperature of the bulkhead and it will add to the load if the AC is turned on.

The discussion point in my post was the use of AC to cool a cabin, which is far less likely in cool winter conditions.

We tend to run with air con off in cooler weather but will give it a run periodically to protect the seals etc, and it does get used if misting occurs which it does in one car during colder wet conditions.

 

[Dustydog]

We tend to run with air con off in cooler weather but will give it a run periodically to protect the seals etc, and it does get used if misting occurs which it does in one car during colder wet conditions.

All my last few cars the aircon came on automatically to help defrost on a sub zero morning!

 

[RogerL]

All my last few cars the aircon came on automatically to help defrost on a sub zero morning!

With Climate Control fitted to most cars, the aircon runs all the time the ambient is above 4 degrees C - below that temperature the aircon is inactive as it would otherwise freeze internally.

 

[Dustydog]

With Climate Control fitted to most cars, the aircon runs all the time the ambient is above 4 degrees C - below that temperature the aircon is inactive as it would otherwise freeze internally.

That’s lost on me , sorry. When we had the beast from the East a while back both the Touareg and Kia aircon came on immediately I set the master controls to maximum defrost. The temperature was way below freezing. Weird. Maybe there’s something wrong with the two cars??

 

[RogerL]

That’s lost on me , sorry. When we had the beast from the East a while back both the Touareg and Kia aircon came on immediately I set the master controls to maximum defrost. The temperature was way below freezing. Weird. Maybe there’s something wrong with the two cars??

AFAIK all aircon systems, domestic and automobile, use a sensor below 4 C or thereabouts - my Touareg still shows aircon on the HVAC display even at low temperatures so I guess it simply cuts out the compressor.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There is a difference between Air conditioning and Climate control, AC is usually manually selected, where as CC is usually responding to temperature and humidity sensors and will automatically switch heating under teh control of a microcomputer

Car manufacturers will use climate controls in all sorts of combinations of heat and cooling (sometimes at the same time) to help get rid of condensation, but once things have settled down and the humidity has stabilised in cool conditions the AC will most likely wont be used.