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Oct 28, 2005
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Again LB a quote..."On your other point Rich, and I realise I'm going to extremes to get my point across, we cannot in these small islands accept the population of Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Somalia, Asia etc. uncontrolled, it is total lunacy and will bring us all down, including yourself as an indigenous member of this country. It is anarchy in the making.

The joining of the E.U. is the worse thing this country as ever done. We abandoned our historical trading partners like the Nordic bloc, Commonwealth countries and the U.S.A. and now we are paying the penalty. We are now governed by countries who have tried to invade us for 950 years and failed, now they've done it by stealth."

I do see problems with migrant workers. I did not ask to be part of the EU and if there were more regulations to limit cross border workers I would not stop that. All I see is people who want to better themselves by doing an honest days work for a fair wage. With the open relationships between EU countries it has also hit these smaller ex Soviet republics and where they once lived in a controlled and very limited way,they did at least have food and housing supplied by the state, now they have to try and keep up with the cost of living in these fast growing economies and it is not easy for many of them. Now they are free and want to become recognised as a real country there is the penalty of companies like Ryan Air opening them to tourism with the promise of cheap hotels and even cheaper beer. The larger lout generation has not died.....it has moved to these small countries where the influx of foreign money has both helped and hindered them with the tourist traps sufering rises in the cost of living well above their national average. Prices in cities where tourists visit have gone up to the point where many locals have now moved out of the city. The cost of living has als been increased by a demand for more European consumer goods and cars by the yonger generation. They want to live like we do and they have options to get what they want by going to places where they can earn enough to get that standard if living.

So although we know it is a problem, but if we sat down and understood or lived in their shoes for a week or month I can honestly say most of us would do the same. In fact we do this in parts of the world already with colonies of EX Pat Brits living in Spain, France, Germany, USA and Australia. We do tend to forget about that.

Yes Britain is an Island but it is also a nation of mixed races and always has been with the Normans, Saxons as well as Celts, Romans and almost any other northern european country adding something to the pot over the past 2000 years.There is also a history of inviting workers from Jamaica and India and other Commonwealth countries to help with shortage of workers in the 60's and 70's so we are the ones who have also added to our own problems.

BUT almost all of Europe has been the same even Norway with all of it's history has only been officially an independent country since 1905!
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Lord B, are you my "alter ego"? I couldn't agree more with all your comments. The odd thing is that the likes of you and I and thousands more can see the problems, but those in so-called charge can't..As I've said before, I'm glad I'm 64!
 
Jan 19, 2008
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emmerson, I just get so frustrated when I see that people are so blinded by their own stupidity and misguided political correctness. These are the very people who, when anyone tries to highlight the problem, play the racist/xenophobia card. They so obviously suffer with tunnel vision that when the likes of myself talk about this subject they do not realise that due to their bigotted views, we by referring to the indigenous population mean everyone who lives in these islands at present, so determined are they to play the racist card. I can fully understand and sympathise with what Rich says and regarding the Ryan Air comment there is no excuse. That doesn't mean to say that it's right to allow all into this country, including the Mafia and all other thugs of Europes underworld from counterfeiters to people traffickers. We have approx. 1 million illegals who this government cannot account for and innocent people have paid for their lives because of the governments incompetence. We have foreign nationals, who are murderers and rapists, wandering our streets because they've been released under the Human Rights Act. By detaining them their freedom was compromised, oh dear, how sad.

I'm afraid that it is the end of this country as we know it, I believe it's gone past the turning back point. We will be a third world country within 20 years and law and order will be way out of control, its already started to go that way.

I just feel guilty about bringing my children/grandchildren into this and feel so helpless watching everything I've held so dear slip away.

One thing emmo, although it doesn't help my despair, we of our generation have probably lived through the best times.

I suppose the present situation in the U.K. is like it was in Rome. Just replace Nero with Blair.
 
G

Guest

I really have to respond to your last post Lord Braykewynde. You have an uncanny knack of attributing statements and decrying people whose views do not coincide with your own. I'm sure you would have a wonderful career in politics with your skill set.

To put the record straight I agree completely with your statements regarding illegal immigrants. I would go further and be far harder on the many UK citizens who are screwing the benefits system shamelessly.

However this thread and my previous posts as Nautilus (who is unable to access the forum) referred to people from the EC who have every right to enter this country under current legislation.

I happened not to vote for the current government , but those who did are probably amongst the contributors shouting loudest on this forum. Having elected Mr Blair on a number of occasions they can hardly now complain at the results. I seem to remember previous threads where you were a staunch Blair Supporter, but obviously you have changed your mind.

This country chose to join the EC and supported a government who systematically gives power away to Brussels.

The whole point I was making is that to then blame people who are legally entitled to be here is farcical and suffering from the very tunnel vision you are presumably accusing me of.

Whether or not the UK should remain in the EC is another debate, but it is unlikely in the extreme that any Government would choose to take us out now.

Your conclusions reagrding the future of the country might well be right, but the logic you have used to reach them in this thread is flawed and many of the arguements you put forward irrelevant to this thread.

I will be surprised if this post is not removed, and am more than happy to debate the other issues in a different thread , although I hate to admit our views might well be similar in many areas.
 
May 12, 2006
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LB

"We will be a third world country within 20 years and law and order will be way out of control, its already started to go that way".

WHY would that be ???? I can't see how you can come to this conclusion. Please state any facts you have to support this outlandish view, with relevance to Legal Eastern European Workers.

Val & Frank
 
Jan 19, 2008
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Well I hope your post isn't removed Nautilus, I don't see any reason it should be, you have every right to reply without being personal but let me take up your points ..

1)...I'm sure you would have a wonderful career in politics with your skill set.

But would you vote for me ;O)

2)I seem to remember previous threads where you were a staunch Blair Supporter, but obviously you have changed your mind.

I thought they were doing well, yes, but I never voted for them. Actually mine was a tactical vote to keep the Tory out. Yes I have changed my mind to my previous thoughts but theres a lot of water gone under the bridge since then, a pity the Human Rights Charter didn't go with it.

2)to then blame people who are legally entitled to be here is farcical and suffering from the very tunnel vision you are presumably accusing me of.

How many more times do I need to post that I DO NOT BLAME THE IMMIGRANTS, I blame the government. I'm sorry for typing in uppercase Nautilus but for some reason you seem to not see what I type, whether thats from choice or not I don't know but it certainly doesn't help your case.

3) but it is unlikely in the extreme that any Government would choose to take us out now.

I agree 100% because we are up to our necks in it now.
 
Jan 19, 2008
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LB

"We will be a third world country within 20 years and law and order will be way out of control, its already started to go that way".

WHY would that be ???? I can't see how you can come to this conclusion. Please state any facts you have to support this outlandish view, with relevance to Legal Eastern European Workers.

Val & Frank
Frank I'm coming to live in Aberdeen, this Utopia that you create that has no litter, lawlessness etc ;O) Hope you don't class me as an economic migrant because I won't be looking for work .. hehheh!
 
G

Guest

Well I hope your post isn't removed Nautilus, I don't see any reason it should be, you have every right to reply without being personal but let me take up your points ..

1)...I'm sure you would have a wonderful career in politics with your skill set.

But would you vote for me ;O)

2)I seem to remember previous threads where you were a staunch Blair Supporter, but obviously you have changed your mind.

I thought they were doing well, yes, but I never voted for them. Actually mine was a tactical vote to keep the Tory out. Yes I have changed my mind to my previous thoughts but theres a lot of water gone under the bridge since then, a pity the Human Rights Charter didn't go with it.

2)to then blame people who are legally entitled to be here is farcical and suffering from the very tunnel vision you are presumably accusing me of.

How many more times do I need to post that I DO NOT BLAME THE IMMIGRANTS, I blame the government. I'm sorry for typing in uppercase Nautilus but for some reason you seem to not see what I type, whether thats from choice or not I don't know but it certainly doesn't help your case.

3) but it is unlikely in the extreme that any Government would choose to take us out now.

I agree 100% because we are up to our necks in it now.
1) Quite possibly I would - although a little extreme you do at least appear to be honest , a rare quality especially in politicians.

2) I see what you have written , and to blame the government is fine but ro bring illegal immigrants into this thread muddies the waters anbd would give a truly PC poster a chance to really introduce irrelevancies

3) Nothing to add to 3 except I would like to see a separate thread on the benefits or otherwise of the EU.
 
Jan 19, 2008
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Well I hope your post isn't removed Nautilus, I don't see any reason it should be, you have every right to reply without being personal but let me take up your points ..

1)...I'm sure you would have a wonderful career in politics with your skill set.

But would you vote for me ;O)

2)I seem to remember previous threads where you were a staunch Blair Supporter, but obviously you have changed your mind.

I thought they were doing well, yes, but I never voted for them. Actually mine was a tactical vote to keep the Tory out. Yes I have changed my mind to my previous thoughts but theres a lot of water gone under the bridge since then, a pity the Human Rights Charter didn't go with it.

2)to then blame people who are legally entitled to be here is farcical and suffering from the very tunnel vision you are presumably accusing me of.

How many more times do I need to post that I DO NOT BLAME THE IMMIGRANTS, I blame the government. I'm sorry for typing in uppercase Nautilus but for some reason you seem to not see what I type, whether thats from choice or not I don't know but it certainly doesn't help your case.

3) but it is unlikely in the extreme that any Government would choose to take us out now.

I agree 100% because we are up to our necks in it now.
p.s. in my post above yours Nautilus I typed the following in response to Rich regarding the plight of migrant workers.

"I can fully understand and sympathise with what Rich says"

further proof that I do not blame them. Again I blame the system and our government.
 
May 12, 2006
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Frank I'm coming to live in Aberdeen, this Utopia that you create that has no litter, lawlessness etc ;O) Hope you don't class me as an economic migrant because I won't be looking for work .. hehheh!
L.B.

I am sure you would be welcome in Aberdeen. Yes we have crime and we have immigrants, in fact 4 of them are currently working in our House. But I can't see anarchy breaking out all over the Place. A few drunken teens on a Saturday Night down Union Street but that's mostly it. The litter problem is Chewing Gum and all that needs to sort it out is another Tax say 40p on a packet, and the money to be used only for cleaning the streets.

Val & Frank
 
Jan 19, 2008
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Frank, last year West Mercia said that of the people caught for crimes like shoplifting, 40% were immigrant workers.

I found the following in Hansard ....

The fundamental question raised by the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich is how to ensure that the migrant workers whom we need in this country are treated properly when they come here. I agree with her that it is principally a matter of enforcement. We have heard a lot about the social consequences of exploited workers being pushed out on to the streets, homeless and hungry, which can give rise to crime and disorder issues, such as increased shoplifting, which was mentioned, and so on.

It's already known that a lot of these workers are being abused by their employers/gang masters through no fault of their own. What are they to do? Most don't seem to go back home, the sensible thing, but turn to crime.

In my mind they are exploited locally on the fruit picking farms and it shouldn't be allowed. Then again if the employers paid a fair wage for the job maybe the local population would be prepared to do the work, hence then no need for the exploitation of migrant labour.

Take the Morecambe Bay Cockle picking incident, even the employers/gang masters were illegal immigrants.

Come back south Frank, to the land of your birth and see whats happening instead of being perched on top of that granite rock in Aberdeen ;O)
 
Mar 14, 2005
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lord B, your comment on local growers not paying enough for local people to do the jobs is possibly because the supermarkets screw them down on the amount they ( the supermarkets ) pay for the produce. It's a well known fact that Tesco dictate to the farmers with regard to price. This is why so much of our food is now imported, and our fields left idle. This country has gone to the dogs in my lifetime, and I cannot see a change for the better in the remainder of that lifetime, hence my comment about being glad I'm 64.As a leading nation, we are Kn*ckered!
 
Jul 5, 2005
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Just an observation: visit Princes Street in Edinburgh any day of the week and you will notice that the majority of Big Issue sellers are East European, wearing very nice clothes and leather jackets and sporting designer sunglasses. they have also moved into more-rural Fife.

head further north ANY day of the week over the Forth Road Bridge and I guarantee you will be passed by a car with Polish/East European numbers plates, weighed down with adult & kids not wearing seatbelts in cars that would probably fail an MOT.

If they are not in Aberdeen already Frank, they're heading your way!! Mark (",)
 
May 12, 2006
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They are only here for a short time to raise their standard of English then they will be off.

Not back Home to Poland, but to Australia a country that needs White immigrants pronto. They will then be able to move out to the countryside of Australia and live a rather good life. They have all the basics that Australia wants and needs.

1 Young

2 White

3 English Speaking

4 With Young Children

5 Hard Working

What more could you ask for ?????

Val & Frank
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Frank The problem is not how long that people may stay in a community but rather does the benefits that they bring outweigh the problems created. The fact remains that people in working class positions see their place in society being edged aside for the sake of an economic benefit to employers, and the salving of political correctness.

Marc
 
Oct 17, 2006
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We have a local village shop, for some reason they only seem to employ on a part time basis, different staff have come and gone,

just recently a young polish girl has started working their, English not very good, and not very polite neither, my point is she has now taken a local persons position, jobs are very short, but further to the point why does this shop employ so many different people, could it be extremely poor wages.

Now I certainly do not agree with this, who ever the person/s may be. Liz
 
Oct 28, 2005
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Another quote...Frank, last year West Mercia said that of the people caught for crimes like shoplifting, 40% were immigrant workers.

We have heard a lot about the social consequences of exploited workers being pushed out on to the streets, homeless and hungry, which can give rise to crime and disorder issues, such as increased shoplifting, which was mentioned, and so on.

It's already known that a lot of these workers are being abused by their employers/gang masters through no fault of their own. What are they to do? Most don't seem to go back home, the sensible thing, but turn to crime.

In my mind they are exploited locally on the fruit picking farms and it shouldn't be allowed. Then again if the employers paid a fair wage for the job maybe the local population would be prepared to do the work, hence then no need for the exploitation of migrant labour.

Take the Morecambe Bay Cockle picking incident, even the employers/gang masters were illegal immigrants."

LB you have picked up some points which cross over from legal to illegal immigrant. The problem is who do the police class as immigrant? Asian, Afro Caribean, African or Eastern European? Which were here legally and which were illegal?

60% of shop lifting type crimes were done by British citizens.

Why don't the ones who have to turn to crime go home?

Do they still have a home to go to? Did they come to the UK legally? if they try to leave is there a threat of violence or death from the people who smuggled them into the country?

The workers who are exploited by employers...Are they here legally? In the case of the Morecambe Bay Cockle pickers they were not here legally. It makes my blood boil when decent people are used and blackmailed into working a debt off like they were. The cost of freedom is a high one for all of us but even higher for immigrants who are smuggled into the country.

They practically owe the slave trade smugglers their lives.

It all feels like the KGB days back in the Eastern Block where peoples lives were cheap and to be honest some of the Russian Mafia if not almost all of them are ex KGB officers! Since the fall of communism crime has become organised in many Eastern European countries.

Many grey areas which need to be resolved and how do we get policing policy which can work? I think this is a problem we have always had and other countries seem to have delt with this issue better for years. We are now at a point of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. This is not the fault of one government but many and the problem gets passed back to previous leaders since the 60's!
 
Mar 14, 2005
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All this going on, and people worry about carbon footprints! If we keep on allowing immigrants, there won't be room for any footprints, never mind carbon ones!
 
Jan 19, 2008
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Another quote...Frank, last year West Mercia said that of the people caught for crimes like shoplifting, 40% were immigrant workers.

We have heard a lot about the social consequences of exploited workers being pushed out on to the streets, homeless and hungry, which can give rise to crime and disorder issues, such as increased shoplifting, which was mentioned, and so on.

It's already known that a lot of these workers are being abused by their employers/gang masters through no fault of their own. What are they to do? Most don't seem to go back home, the sensible thing, but turn to crime.

In my mind they are exploited locally on the fruit picking farms and it shouldn't be allowed. Then again if the employers paid a fair wage for the job maybe the local population would be prepared to do the work, hence then no need for the exploitation of migrant labour.

Take the Morecambe Bay Cockle picking incident, even the employers/gang masters were illegal immigrants."

LB you have picked up some points which cross over from legal to illegal immigrant. The problem is who do the police class as immigrant? Asian, Afro Caribean, African or Eastern European? Which were here legally and which were illegal?

60% of shop lifting type crimes were done by British citizens.

Why don't the ones who have to turn to crime go home?

Do they still have a home to go to? Did they come to the UK legally? if they try to leave is there a threat of violence or death from the people who smuggled them into the country?

The workers who are exploited by employers...Are they here legally? In the case of the Morecambe Bay Cockle pickers they were not here legally. It makes my blood boil when decent people are used and blackmailed into working a debt off like they were. The cost of freedom is a high one for all of us but even higher for immigrants who are smuggled into the country.

They practically owe the slave trade smugglers their lives.

It all feels like the KGB days back in the Eastern Block where peoples lives were cheap and to be honest some of the Russian Mafia if not almost all of them are ex KGB officers! Since the fall of communism crime has become organised in many Eastern European countries.

Many grey areas which need to be resolved and how do we get policing policy which can work? I think this is a problem we have always had and other countries seem to have delt with this issue better for years. We are now at a point of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. This is not the fault of one government but many and the problem gets passed back to previous leaders since the 60's!
Sorry Rich, I didn't make myself clear. The 40% I was referring to was for Hereford Division. They were eastern European but whether they were legal/illegal I don't know, I would think legal.

I did say the cockle pickers were illegals and frighteningly there's supposed to be up to a million of those unaccounted for.
 
May 12, 2006
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Marc "The fact remains that people in working class positions see their place in society being edged aside for the sake of an economic benefit to employers, and the salving of political correctness".

Now Guys and Dolls fall over but

I agree 100% you only need to look at the people being exploited/recruited by the BNP. They have only won council seats in working class areas, that are run down and with high immigrant populations.

As for the economic benefit Gordon Brown, keeps on claiming it's all his own work !!!!!!!!!!!

Val & Frank
 
Feb 11, 2007
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Hello Frank ,you state tradesmen/women are not really skilled like someone in I T .Well i beg to differ,i have done work for many of these brainy people where their wives say he cannot put a screw in the wall etc,fortuanatley there are many many like the person described and it keeps us "skilled" workers in work.Not everyone in IT earns megabucks and i for one am glad my son chose a job where he can handle 99% of the work without calling in other tradsmen/women.
 
Jan 19, 2008
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My neighbour, who is 70 has a son who is an accountant and lives in Surrey, 150 miles away. Every year he catches a National coach to go and do his garden. Last year he made an extra trip because his fence and shed needed painting! Lots of these "intelligent" types are totally impractical when it comes to using their hands.
 
Oct 28, 2005
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Sorry Rich, I didn't make myself clear. The 40% I was referring to was for Hereford Division. They were eastern European but whether they were legal/illegal I don't know, I would think legal.

I did say the cockle pickers were illegals and frighteningly there's supposed to be up to a million of those unaccounted for.
LB,

No problem... I was not picking holes in the statement. It was obviously taken from another source. I was just pointing out that it does not differentiate from legally entitled migrant workers through illegal ones. It only leaves you to make up your own mind which ones you want to see. As I point out 60% of the shop lifting is British citizens! Does that mean there are less of us per capita who are criminal or more of us Brits are criminals in that area? It also only gives a percentage and not actual crime figures. Was that 40% of 10 crimes or 10,000? It makes a big difference. As they say there are 3 types of lie. Lies....Damn Lies and Statistics.

I don't condone criminal action or illegal immigrants setting up base here in the UK. Like you I am sad at what is happening and things are like that all over Europe. I spend time in many European cities and towns and it is a problem all over but as we are a small Island it feels worse for us. All European countries have migratory work forces and even Brits went and help re-build Germany and I have seen UK companies who are involved with re-building many Eastern European buildings which have some form of historical relevance.
 
May 12, 2006
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Hi Robert

" Hello Frank ,you state tradesmen/women are not really skilled like someone in IT.

I didn't say that, what I said was what used to be a "trade" can now be done by a pretty good DIY er. Look no further than Property Ladder, to see all sorts of peole doing up houses etc.

The skill set has diminished greatly in the building trades is what I was saying and I still do. I also said we need to concentrate on the high value work or we will sink down the economic league table faster than Accrington Stanley dropped out of the 4th division. Look at T5 Heatrow, that's the modern builders at work. It's machined and then put together on site.

Please Robert if you are going to quote me "copy and paste" the quote as I almost always do. it saves any argey bargey

Val & Frank
 
Jan 19, 2008
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See....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6679755.stm
What I found amazing reading the government report is that 57,657 immigrants were successful in applying for child benefit. That is 57,657 x how many children they have. So in summary they can step off the plane/ship and immediately collect handouts from us, the taxpayer and send the money home.

I couldn't be bothered to look at the applications for tax-funded, income-related benefits or applications for Tax Credits because the above was enough and with it being a government report it's bound to be toned down :O(
 

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