"This period will be not less than 3 years and in some cases could be 1 year."
That does not make sense!
Should it not say "not MORE than 3 years" ?
That does not make sense!
Should it not say "not MORE than 3 years" ?
Jennifer,
I agree with you, however the NCC document does say "not less than 3 years and in some cases could be 1 year".
I would have thought such a document would have been fully proof read before publication!!
As it stands it does not make sense.
Hamer
Damian
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- Mar 14, 2005
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To answer Deans question, yes a trailer tent will need a PIR if it wants to connect up to a site EHU, as do motorhomes.
From John L's post " I have to agree with the strong view about the time to perform the PIR, 4 hours seems unprecedented"
Unless you have done the course and done the testing you cannot make a statement like that.
As you know, caravan and leisure vehicle electrics are not exactly easy to work on, but the tester has to disconnect all appliances from the circuit, plus chargers, lights and any other electronics which may be attached to the main wiring.
Also every socket has to be opened up to test each connection, then after all the tests are completed, all put back together again.
Failure to disconnct any appliance will lead to damage to that appliance when the 500v insulation test is carried out.
4 hours is assuming everything goes well, if problems are found, it will take longer.
From John L's post " I have to agree with the strong view about the time to perform the PIR, 4 hours seems unprecedented"
Unless you have done the course and done the testing you cannot make a statement like that.
As you know, caravan and leisure vehicle electrics are not exactly easy to work on, but the tester has to disconnect all appliances from the circuit, plus chargers, lights and any other electronics which may be attached to the main wiring.
Also every socket has to be opened up to test each connection, then after all the tests are completed, all put back together again.
Failure to disconnct any appliance will lead to damage to that appliance when the 500v insulation test is carried out.
4 hours is assuming everything goes well, if problems are found, it will take longer.
I suppose in the future caravan axles will be fitted with something like the Hubometer here they have been using them for years in the road transport industry, then it would give a true mileage as to how much towing it has had done, some vans do very little mileage every year & some do tens of thousands ?????????
Thinking outside of the box
(
Thinking outside of the box
(
Parksy
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'Failure to disconnct any appliance will lead to damage to that appliance when the 500v insulation test is carried out.'
That's going to provide some fertile ground for disputes between dealers or mobile engineers and caravan owners when electrical appliances break down after a PIR test was carried out.
'Frequency of Inspection and Test
It is the duty of the engineer carrying out a periodic inspection and test, on a Caravan or Park, to establish when the next periodic inspection is required. This will be based on the condition, age and type of installation.
To recommend when the next periodic inspection and test is due for installations in Caravans, the engineer will also need to take into account the use of the Caravan, and the mileage covered for a Touring Caravan or Motorhome: this will then be reviewed at that time. This period will be not less than 3 years and in some cases could be 1 year.
As I see it from what is written a caravan or motorhome is due for a PIR inspection when a workshop or engineer decides that it is due.
What safeguards are in place to prevent unscrupulous workshops from ordering unnecessary PIR inspections to boost their own income?
It looks like a nice little earner if income from normal scheduled servicing is low at any particular time.
Our dealers workshop charge
That's going to provide some fertile ground for disputes between dealers or mobile engineers and caravan owners when electrical appliances break down after a PIR test was carried out.
'Frequency of Inspection and Test
It is the duty of the engineer carrying out a periodic inspection and test, on a Caravan or Park, to establish when the next periodic inspection is required. This will be based on the condition, age and type of installation.
To recommend when the next periodic inspection and test is due for installations in Caravans, the engineer will also need to take into account the use of the Caravan, and the mileage covered for a Touring Caravan or Motorhome: this will then be reviewed at that time. This period will be not less than 3 years and in some cases could be 1 year.
As I see it from what is written a caravan or motorhome is due for a PIR inspection when a workshop or engineer decides that it is due.
What safeguards are in place to prevent unscrupulous workshops from ordering unnecessary PIR inspections to boost their own income?
It looks like a nice little earner if income from normal scheduled servicing is low at any particular time.
Our dealers workshop charge
I will probably get shot for this but here goes.
I have just completed the assessment to gain Approved Workshop status.
I am offering a single axle service and pir for
I have just completed the assessment to gain Approved Workshop status.
I am offering a single axle service and pir for
It is surmised that caravans are a very aggressive environment for electric cabling. On what planet do these people live? The wires are extremely light and resilient to damage and don't exactly shake around enough to break and if they did this be due to the state of the road or poor design and workmanship by the manufacturer in which case you may have a case against the dealer under SOGA as the goods are not suitable for the purpose for which they were designed!.
Why should a caravan be any different to a home if it is used on a seasonal site for many years and without moving at all? Even a static caravan is in effect mobile as it can be moved therefore it should be subject to the same regulation even though in most cases it will probably not move in 20 years! What about caravans belonging to travellers including those with horse drawn caravans?
Why don't you take a piece of wire and flex it until it breaks? How long did it take before the plastic sheathing even broke? I can't see a CL owner charging around asking for the certificate prior to you hooking up. Most of the time if on a farm CL you cannot find the owner until the next day. I think the same would apply to commercial sites.
Can you imagine arriving at a site and you cannot find this worthless piece of paper and the owner refuses you entry? The chaos trying to turn around and exit and also the goodwill effect on the owner as word spreads through various caravan forums.
It is just another ill thought out idea from the NCC to generate more revenue for them as obviously they will benefit. I would like to see the stats on the number of fires caused by faulty caravan wiring where no human interference has taken place.
What if the customer refuses to sign the disclaimer? I am still puzzled why it would take 4 hours to check the wiring as surely this can be done visually and also with the use of a meter as the meter should indicate where the resistance has changed indicating a fault. As a lot of wiring is hidden away and cannot be seen visually knowing the resistance of span of wire would be essential but would a manufacturer be able to supply these specs?
Why should a caravan be any different to a home if it is used on a seasonal site for many years and without moving at all? Even a static caravan is in effect mobile as it can be moved therefore it should be subject to the same regulation even though in most cases it will probably not move in 20 years! What about caravans belonging to travellers including those with horse drawn caravans?
Why don't you take a piece of wire and flex it until it breaks? How long did it take before the plastic sheathing even broke? I can't see a CL owner charging around asking for the certificate prior to you hooking up. Most of the time if on a farm CL you cannot find the owner until the next day. I think the same would apply to commercial sites.
Can you imagine arriving at a site and you cannot find this worthless piece of paper and the owner refuses you entry? The chaos trying to turn around and exit and also the goodwill effect on the owner as word spreads through various caravan forums.
It is just another ill thought out idea from the NCC to generate more revenue for them as obviously they will benefit. I would like to see the stats on the number of fires caused by faulty caravan wiring where no human interference has taken place.
What if the customer refuses to sign the disclaimer? I am still puzzled why it would take 4 hours to check the wiring as surely this can be done visually and also with the use of a meter as the meter should indicate where the resistance has changed indicating a fault. As a lot of wiring is hidden away and cannot be seen visually knowing the resistance of span of wire would be essential but would a manufacturer be able to supply these specs?
Dougie, I hope your post wont get deleted as it gives some meat to the bone in terms of cost ect, rather than having figures banded about.
No chance of you doing my van in Devon then????
Supose the millage charge would be a bit prohibitive.
Like your website and prices, shame im not in your area as you would have gained another customer.
Kevin
No chance of you doing my van in Devon then????
Supose the millage charge would be a bit prohibitive.
Like your website and prices, shame im not in your area as you would have gained another customer.
Kevin
Parksy
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- Nov 12, 2009
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From what I can see site owners will not refuse entry to sites without the PIR certificate but could if they wanted to refuse to allow electric hook ups to be used without proof of the PIR.
I can't help wondering what would happen if everybody told them to take a running jump and either used genny's, solar panels or just moved to somewhere else.
Dougie has just confirmed my worst suspicions when he wrote:
'I am offering a single axle service and pir for
I can't help wondering what would happen if everybody told them to take a running jump and either used genny's, solar panels or just moved to somewhere else.
Dougie has just confirmed my worst suspicions when he wrote:
'I am offering a single axle service and pir for
Ian,
I do not consider it to be a "worthless" piece of paper. When it becomes law i would admire a site owner who refused entry to a caravanner without one.
I have experienced what faulty mains electrical wiring can do.
I had a new 1994 Bessacar. I was on a Caravan Club site and in those days where the mains electrics enter the caravan Bessacar boxed them in with a screwed lid.
On arrival all electrics were working. However on about the third day my wife said she could smell something burning. Nothing seemed obvious. During the day the smell got a lot worse. It became obvious the smell was coming from the boxed in electrics. Having disconnected the mains cable from the bollard i unscrewed the box cover inside the cravan. The mains wire entering the caravan was so hot it had melted the plastic covering for about one foot.
It was discovered that out of the 3 wires, earth, plus and negative, only one was screwed tight, one just touching the wires and one not tightened at all. Luckily there was about two and a half feet of spare cableing to work with.
At the handover of the caravan everything worked perfectly.
Thank god my wife has a sense of smell as i have very little sense of smell.
Due to what happened Bessacar gave us an extra years warranty.
If we had gone out for the day and our caravan had caught fire other caravans either side would have been damaged.
I must add an electrician repaired the wiring. The site warden gave us a supporting letter to send to Bessacar.
Hamer
I do not consider it to be a "worthless" piece of paper. When it becomes law i would admire a site owner who refused entry to a caravanner without one.
I have experienced what faulty mains electrical wiring can do.
I had a new 1994 Bessacar. I was on a Caravan Club site and in those days where the mains electrics enter the caravan Bessacar boxed them in with a screwed lid.
On arrival all electrics were working. However on about the third day my wife said she could smell something burning. Nothing seemed obvious. During the day the smell got a lot worse. It became obvious the smell was coming from the boxed in electrics. Having disconnected the mains cable from the bollard i unscrewed the box cover inside the cravan. The mains wire entering the caravan was so hot it had melted the plastic covering for about one foot.
It was discovered that out of the 3 wires, earth, plus and negative, only one was screwed tight, one just touching the wires and one not tightened at all. Luckily there was about two and a half feet of spare cableing to work with.
At the handover of the caravan everything worked perfectly.
Thank god my wife has a sense of smell as i have very little sense of smell.
Due to what happened Bessacar gave us an extra years warranty.
If we had gone out for the day and our caravan had caught fire other caravans either side would have been damaged.
I must add an electrician repaired the wiring. The site warden gave us a supporting letter to send to Bessacar.
Hamer
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Ian,
If your opening line is as a result of my posting, then please read it again. I was quite specific about touring caravans and motor homes, and I can assure you that these environments are mechanically aggressive. Having used facilities at MIRA for proving the designs of various components and products, road induced vibrations can literally stress fracture substantial metal components.
I agree that power cables are comparatively light weight, but anything that has mass and volume will be affected to some degree by induced vibration. The biggest problem is not so much the cabling but the connections where they join to other components and appliances. or insulation rubbing and wearing away.
I also concure that if a caravans electrical system fails a PIR in its early years, then assuming there has been no subsequent intervention that causes damage, then there has to be a question about the design or manufacture of the caravan.
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hi Damian,
I have not done the PIR course, so you are correct I don't know the detail, but I did qualify under the 16th edition to do installations, and to certify them.
You have taken my comment regarding the 4 hours suggested as the time to perform a PIR on a caravan out of specific context, I qualified the sentiment in the remainder of the paragraph.
I'm not disputing that following the prescribed PIR procedures may take 4 hours, but I suggested that as the knowledge base of test results grows, any items of the current prescription that consistently produce no problems, then hopefully the standards committees will review the need to perform that particular aspect of the test or even drop it.
Just as a theoretical senario, if power cabling is run in closed sections of furniture, it is quite likely that it will not deteriorate. It is not open to abuse as it is protected. Consequently the time needed to expose such cabling for inspection and then reassemble is wasted. Provided the bulk of inspections finds the same very very low levels of problems, perhaps this aspect of the test may be found unnecessary and at review of the standard it may be dropped or made conditional on other indicative criteria. Its these sorts of non value issues that will bring the process into disrepute.
As for the inspection period, unless there are some very clear guidelines laid out with measurable criteria, I don't see how a tester can professionally cover them selves except to require a 12month inspection. - how is the tester to know what level of usage a caravan will receive over the valid period of a report?
We are still in the very early days of the process, and, as and when it come fully on line we will begin to get feedback about real times and costs.
I do agree the periodic testing of both gas an electrical systems should become compulsory, but I still believe though that 4 hours per caravan is disproportionate for electrical testing considering the size of the installation and the level of use such systems are put to throughout the year. This is a very considerable on-cost to the annual ownership and use of a caravan.
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Hi Dean,
Portable appliance testing (PAT) is very different to a Periodic Inspection Report (PIR).
The "Portable" aspect of PAT refers to the item being tested - not the test equipment. Thus any item of electrical equipment that can be moved and is terminated with a plug for connection to a mains socket, and some items of equipment that are connected to the mains by a flexible power chord to a fused connection spur may be classed as "portable" The actual definition is a little more specific, but in general it will be an item of equipment as supplied when purchased as a complete appliance.
The PIR is looking at the wiring installation, that is the cabling, switches, sockets and fittings. These are not connected by plugs and sockets, but are hard wired together.
Portable appliance testing (PAT) is very different to a Periodic Inspection Report (PIR).
The "Portable" aspect of PAT refers to the item being tested - not the test equipment. Thus any item of electrical equipment that can be moved and is terminated with a plug for connection to a mains socket, and some items of equipment that are connected to the mains by a flexible power chord to a fused connection spur may be classed as "portable" The actual definition is a little more specific, but in general it will be an item of equipment as supplied when purchased as a complete appliance.
The PIR is looking at the wiring installation, that is the cabling, switches, sockets and fittings. These are not connected by plugs and sockets, but are hard wired together.
Hamer your problem had nothing to do with the caravan being transported around but was due to human error. Hopefully you got compensation as the caravabn was nto fit for purpose etc under SOGA.
I still maintain that it is highly unlikly that movement of the caravan would cause an electrical fault as this thsi movement woudl manifest itself in all the other electgricla equipment like TVs that we carry around in caravans.
I still maintain that it is highly unlikly that movement of the caravan would cause an electrical fault as this thsi movement woudl manifest itself in all the other electgricla equipment like TVs that we carry around in caravans.
Hi All
I'm certainly not against testing for safety but only when there is a quantifiable risk, ie where there have been a significant number of verifiable occurences of a problem. Personally I've never heard of any major problems, only people losing power because the EHU trip had worked correctly - as it should do.
Perhaps if we all did what I guess the French will do if they are faced with the same rule there may be a change of heart. If the French think a law or ruling is stupid then they just ignore it. If we all did this and turned up at sites with no certificate what would a site owner / club do ? Turn away
I'm certainly not against testing for safety but only when there is a quantifiable risk, ie where there have been a significant number of verifiable occurences of a problem. Personally I've never heard of any major problems, only people losing power because the EHU trip had worked correctly - as it should do.
Perhaps if we all did what I guess the French will do if they are faced with the same rule there may be a change of heart. If the French think a law or ruling is stupid then they just ignore it. If we all did this and turned up at sites with no certificate what would a site owner / club do ? Turn away
Seems i cant win here.Trucker thinks my price is reasonable and Parksy thinks i am out to rip him off.
I have just today done a service on a Swift Challenger which has had a mouse in it over winter. There is damage to the gas hose, EHU cable and various bits of wiring throughout the van. The owner is insisting on a pir after repairs. (he would get a minor works cert anyway)
I have just today done a service on a Swift Challenger which has had a mouse in it over winter. There is damage to the gas hose, EHU cable and various bits of wiring throughout the van. The owner is insisting on a pir after repairs. (he would get a minor works cert anyway)
everything except my microwave works off gas or 12volt,I'll buy a solar panel and extra gas and mange without electric and certificates.Just another rip off imo,my house has never been checked in 30 years and have had no problems yet my van needs a yearly check and certificate
I found this link on another forum See http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=12359 It clearly states that if the caravan is owned and used by the owner there is no need for a PIR and this applies to static and touring caravans.
It seems that some people may have been economical with the truth and this is the reason why we have not been reading about it in newspapers and magazines etc. Just another scaremongering tactic to get us to part with our hard earned cash.
It seems that some people may have been economical with the truth and this is the reason why we have not been reading about it in newspapers and magazines etc. Just another scaremongering tactic to get us to part with our hard earned cash.
Electrical Installations on Caravan Sites
Last updated: 21/03/2009 Add to My Bookmarks
These notes give guidance on the interpretation of the caravan site licence condition about electrical installations.
Caravan site licence conditions set out the intervals at which electrical installations are to be inspected by a competent person. Most installations must be tested and certified as satisfactory every three years and they include all areas which are part of the site such as amenity buildings, street lighting and toilet blocks as well as installations within caravans. Some of these installations must be tested annually if they have overhead supplies, as described in licence conditions. Hook-ups on touring sites must be tested and certified as satisfactory every year.
'Competent person' means a manufacturer's appointed agent, a professionally qualified electrical engineer, a member of the Electrical Contractors' Association (ECA) or a contractor registered with the National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting (NICEIC). If testing is done by an electrician who does not meet this definition we must be satisfied he is competent before accepting a test certificate.
Hook-ups on touring sites are particularly prone to overloading or damage. Pillars should be located not more than 20 metres away from the pitches they are intended to serve, should be placed between 0.8 metres and 1.5 metres above ground and protected by residual current devices. There should be no more than four sockets per pillar. Cables from sockets should not cross areas used by vehicles or pedestrians.
Earth rods for caravans are prone to damage by site machinery, especially mowers, if not carefully placed.
Portable equipment in caravans should be inspected often and tested regularly. Most faults can be seen by visual inspection - frayed leads, cracked plug tops etc - so testing need not be as frequent as visual inspections.
Testing of installations within caravans may not be a requirement of site licence conditions because testing may not be the responsibility of the site owner or operator.
On a mobile home park, for example, the caravan or mobile home may be owned and maintained by the occupier with the site owner responsible only for supplying electricity to the plot. On static holiday sites, some caravans may be owned and maintained by individuals, others by the site operator. If owned by an individual and only used by the owner, a certificate is not required but if let out, either by the owner or by the site operator on behalf of the owner, a certificate must be supplied. Owner-occupiers should have responsibility for their own installations but site owners and caravan owners have a legal obligation to their tenants (including short stay visitors).
We recommend site owners call for an electrical certificate every three years as part of their agreement with caravan owners for the pitch.
These notes are one of a series on caravan site licence conditions
Last updated: 21/03/2009 Add to My Bookmarks
These notes give guidance on the interpretation of the caravan site licence condition about electrical installations.
Caravan site licence conditions set out the intervals at which electrical installations are to be inspected by a competent person. Most installations must be tested and certified as satisfactory every three years and they include all areas which are part of the site such as amenity buildings, street lighting and toilet blocks as well as installations within caravans. Some of these installations must be tested annually if they have overhead supplies, as described in licence conditions. Hook-ups on touring sites must be tested and certified as satisfactory every year.
'Competent person' means a manufacturer's appointed agent, a professionally qualified electrical engineer, a member of the Electrical Contractors' Association (ECA) or a contractor registered with the National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting (NICEIC). If testing is done by an electrician who does not meet this definition we must be satisfied he is competent before accepting a test certificate.
Hook-ups on touring sites are particularly prone to overloading or damage. Pillars should be located not more than 20 metres away from the pitches they are intended to serve, should be placed between 0.8 metres and 1.5 metres above ground and protected by residual current devices. There should be no more than four sockets per pillar. Cables from sockets should not cross areas used by vehicles or pedestrians.
Earth rods for caravans are prone to damage by site machinery, especially mowers, if not carefully placed.
Portable equipment in caravans should be inspected often and tested regularly. Most faults can be seen by visual inspection - frayed leads, cracked plug tops etc - so testing need not be as frequent as visual inspections.
Testing of installations within caravans may not be a requirement of site licence conditions because testing may not be the responsibility of the site owner or operator.
On a mobile home park, for example, the caravan or mobile home may be owned and maintained by the occupier with the site owner responsible only for supplying electricity to the plot. On static holiday sites, some caravans may be owned and maintained by individuals, others by the site operator. If owned by an individual and only used by the owner, a certificate is not required but if let out, either by the owner or by the site operator on behalf of the owner, a certificate must be supplied. Owner-occupiers should have responsibility for their own installations but site owners and caravan owners have a legal obligation to their tenants (including short stay visitors).
We recommend site owners call for an electrical certificate every three years as part of their agreement with caravan owners for the pitch.
These notes are one of a series on caravan site licence conditions
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Ian,
I have read the link you provided.
Those regulations apply to static caravans and mobile homes sited on a residential site. as such the regulations are akin to those for domestic properties which are not subject to the vibration and movement of towing.
The nub of this thread has been to do with touring caravans, which are temporarily connected to a sites electrical supply and the NCC directive which may or may not be adopted by site owners.
Ian - I refer you to your comment
"It seems that some people may have been economical with the truth"
Incidentally a site owner can ask for evidence of a PIR and any other certification they wish, and it is their right to refuse entry to anyone who does not comply with their request - whether it is a legal requirement or not.
I have read the link you provided.
Those regulations apply to static caravans and mobile homes sited on a residential site. as such the regulations are akin to those for domestic properties which are not subject to the vibration and movement of towing.
The nub of this thread has been to do with touring caravans, which are temporarily connected to a sites electrical supply and the NCC directive which may or may not be adopted by site owners.
Ian - I refer you to your comment
"It seems that some people may have been economical with the truth"
Incidentally a site owner can ask for evidence of a PIR and any other certification they wish, and it is their right to refuse entry to anyone who does not comply with their request - whether it is a legal requirement or not.
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