Speeders Beware

[ProfJohnL]

Readers and speeders might wan't to take notice of this article published by AOL to day.

Home Car news
New tech means drivers could face fines for driving slightly over the speed limit

By Staff Writer, Aug 5, 2015
Updated: August 5, 2015 9:03 AM

Darryl Sleath

Following changes in camera technology, drivers could now be facing fines and penalty points for driving even marginally over the speed limit.

When speeds are captured, there is usually a small margin of error coming from the accuracy of the detection equipment. This would give motorists a leeway of around 10 per cent, meaning that a motorist travelling in a 40mph zone wouldn't be stopped if they travelled up to 44mph, though of course this would be down to the discretion of the officer.

With the technological advancement in speed capturing equipment, though this could become a thing of the past. With officers able to calculate the exact speed at which a motorist is travelling, they will now be able to issue fines to people travelling just one mph over the speed limit.

With police in Scotland getting rid of the discretionary manner in which speed offences are issued, this could become more of a nationwide initiative. Drivers in Scotland are now issued warnings for being caught travelling just marginally over the speed limit, with the older discretionary way of dealing with speeding being scrapped entirely.

According to the Nottingham Post, a spokesman for the National Police Chiefs' Council said on the matter: "If you are over the limit, you are breaking the law and technology makes it easier to pinpoint exact speeds."

Motorists hoping to be spared a penalty or fine by taking into account the traditional leeway will be left without a leg to stand on should the new measures come into effect across the country. Given the ever-increasing accuracy of speed recording equipment, speed limits could be even more specifically enforced.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

mmm, bad news then if you dont have an electronic speedometer, or sat nav turned on, I always understood the the 10% margin was not because of the detection equipment, but because of the 10% possible error of mechanical speedo's that could not be verified at the MOT,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin,

For a long time now, the construction and use have required speed indicators to fall within dead on to marginally fast, to ensure the driver can be sure of not speeding. There has never really been a mechanical need for a +10% margin as no speedo should underread.
The main reason I believe for the margin was to reduce the numbers of failed prosecutions because the driver could raise reasonable doubt about the validity of the speed recording readings.

The notion of the 10% margin was ACPO's way of improving their prosecution rates, but has never been part of the relevant acts of parliament and regulations, and some forces have reduced or even dropped the margin in some instances.

 

[chrisbee1]

At a recent police open day I had a chat to one of the operators of a camera van as I had read somewhere that it had to be a "warranted" officer operating the camera. I was assured that it only had to be someone "authorised" by the chief constable but in Kent at least, the operators are civilian ex traffic officers. He also assured me that although speeding is an "absolute" offence, they operate at 10% plus 3 mph over before taking action. It is, as the prof says, to allow for any inaccuracy in the measuring equipment even though it is always calibrated. That margin of error tends to mean people don't question the accuracy of the camera thereby wasting his time in court cases.

 

[Gafferbill]

........well I live very close to the village of Turners Hill which has a 30 mph speed limit.
Not only do 75%of drivers break it they also think that driving rules are for other people and not for them.
........ as this article and video explains

.......or this truck at the same roundabout

 

[IBH]

The way I see it is this! If the speed limit is 50 MPH and your speedo is saying 50MPH you are not speeding. If your speedo says 55MPH you are speeding. Simples!

 

[Woodentop]

To be exact ACPO confirmed a while ago that the speeding margin is 10%+2mph.

Most speedos seem to read 3 or even 4mph fast, so as someone said, short of a satnav or other GPS unit how do you know the speed you are doing?

If stopped for 1mph over I think there would be a lot of people demanding to see the speedo calibration of the police car involved. Its interesting to note how many flashing 30mph signs (radar triggered) are showing 30 and a down-curved mouth when your speedo shows you to be doing under 30! It suggests that the reading has been rigged: if they can do that with a sign they can do it with a speed trap as well.

Note none of the above applies in North Wales where the Chief Constable has had a zero tolerance policy in place now for a number of years.

 

[ProfJohnL]

To be exact ACPO confirmed a while ago that the speeding margin is 10%+2mph.

Most speedos seem to read 3 or even 4mph fast, so as someone said, short of a satnav or other GPS unit how do you know the speed you are doing?

If stopped for 1mph over I think there would be a lot of people demanding to see the speedo calibration of the police car involved. Its interesting to note how many flashing 30mph signs (radar triggered) are showing 30 and a down-curved mouth when your speedo shows you to be doing under 30! It suggests that the reading has been rigged: if they can do that with a sign they can do it with a speed trap as well.

Note none of the above applies in North Wales where the Chief Constable has had a zero tolerance policy in place now for a number of years.

Hello Woodentop..

The APCO guidelines are just that, guidelines , just like the caravan industries 85% weight ratio, it has no basis in law. You have already pointed out that Wales has a zero tolerance, and I have heard, that in some other places there is a zero tolerance even within a single authority where they do operate a tolerance elsewhere. So it is unsafe for any driver to assume there is a tolerance.

We operated for years without the benefit of Sat Navs to give us better speed accuracy, and it worked because speedos were always designed to read a little fast. By never indicating slow we can be safe by driving to the indicated speed.

The situation you have suggested is why APCO came up with its guidelines. It reduced the number of challenged cases, which is costly for the police and authorities, and it made their prosecution success rate look better.

If the new measurement equipment can be shown to be more consistent and accurate, it will make it more difficult to challenge a prosecution on a technicality of speed measurement.

Ultimately if drivers did not speed, there would be no call for speeding prosecutions.

 

[Raywood]

Last year my sister was stopped and sent on an awareness course for exceeding the speed limit by 1 mph near Redcar so I know the idea is catching on.
One of our daughters is also training to operate radar equipment as a civilian but not sure what the tolerance will be yet. The police are cracking down on speeding in Scotland and even came close to admitting this is not crime driven but an easy way of getting their figures up to meet targets so be warned.

 

[Dustydog]

That's interesting Ray.
Our Local Town Council meetings are often attended by the police. The following is an extract from last month's minutes:-

Recently, speeding tickets have been issued in the 20mph zone to motorists exceeding the speed limit.

The entire High Street and feeder Road from the A 419 dual carriageway are all officially 20 mph.
There is no leniency at all. Our new police officer has promised regular patrols to catch the miscreants.

 

[Gabsgrandad]

Apparently you'll be alright in an 'odd' numbered road!!!!

 

[Sproket]

Apparently you'll be alright in an 'odd' numbered road!!!!

 

[JonnyG]

sorry i don't get this thread? don't we all know the legal speed limits and the consequences of breaking them? who are we warning? surely its speeders.why? if they have been flaunting the speed limit laws and getting away with it because of some 10% rule being applied, why warn them that sort of rule has gone?

 

[intransient1]

We once requested a silent speed check on an estate in lancashire, the results given showed that at that time of day the highest speed recorded was 38mph.
We were then informed that this was within the guidelines for Lancashire of 10% + 5 mph.
This I challenged as it meant that people could do 38mph in a 30mph zone without fear of prosecution, absolutely ludicrous.
Zero tolerance bring it on that's the best deterrent.
Think on this when you drive onto a site at 10 - 15 mph and the sign says 5 mph.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

I don't know how they can be sure the equipment is that accurate, on every machine every time.
we have those warning signs that flash the speed as you go past, there is 3 in the village, the variation in readings is so up and down it is unbelievable I have gone past all 3 many times with the speedo bang on 30mph, the range it shows is between 27mph and 33mph I noticed 1 is constantly showing slow and one constantly showing fast, so if these machines are to be taken as accurate and relied on to issue tickets, one road in you would be fine at 33mph and the other get a ticket at 28mph, we also have Gatso's on the main road, near the school that coincidently is 20mph zone, with the sign convinently hidden behind a tree in summer at one side [the left one of course] that is 400yards further on than the flashing speed sign. so go into the village past the sign make sure you are under the 30mph limit 400yards later get flashed by the Gatso for doing more than 20mph,
all the locals know about this but passing traffic has no chance must be a right money spinner,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin,

The speed warning signs that flash up your speed are not used for gathering evidence of speeding, they are there primarily to make drivers more aware of their speed in 20 or 30mph areas, so their accuracy is not in the same league as gatso and other enforcement camera's.

We have a a couple of these speed warning signs, that the authority keeps moving around the area, and like you there is inconsistency in their readouts. I regularly use cruise control checked against a GPS based speed readout, and when set the GPS shows a very consistent 29 to 30MPH, yet some of the speed signs still trigger at a GPS indicated 27mph.

I have no doubt the technology exists to make fixed camera locations to be highly accurate even to 0.1 MPH or better, after all the original Gatso was developed for tracking rally car speeds where timing of down to the millisecond would be required to separate vehicle times and speeds.

 

[DrZhivago]

The only thing I find suprising is that speed detecting cameras, in this day and age, are not at least accurate to 0.1% - if that is a fact. Or suprising that people would find that accuracy suprising. [Hint - I was once involved in technical vehicle road testing myself]. A far bigger variable is probably whether the speed camera operator can be bothered, especially if he already has his book full of worse offenders that day.

I often find it hard to know what the speed limit is. There used to be a strict and simple set of rules: -

1) If street lights were closer than 200 yds apart, the limit was 30;
2) If street lights were further than 200 yds apart there was no limit (or rather the national limit applied);
3) If there were repeater signs (always less than 200 yds apart) they defined the limit irrespective of street light spacing;
4) Speed limit entry and exit signs were full size.
5) Speed limit repeater signs were half size.

In practice you did not need a 200yd tape measure - the lamp posts usually had repeaters on them if they were anything more than about 50 yds apart.

Unfortunately there was a case (25y ago?) where a motorist was prosecuted for exceeding 30 in an area with street lights. He returned and measured the light spacing and showed it was more than 200 yds, so he should have been acquitted (and the council should have erected an intermediate repeater if that is what they wanted). Unfortunately (from the legal point of view) his appeal was thrown out.

That case led to the breakdown of the above clear-cut system. Sloppy signage is now tolerated. I know of long stretches of "30mph limit" areas with no street lights or repeaters, and more worrying there are no doubt many such stretches I do not know about. Two years ago I was driving along at about 40 and the first I realised I was in a speed limit was when a policeman by the roadside raised a radar gun. Even then I did not know what the speed limit was (no lamps or repeaters in sight). Perhaps the limit entry sign was in a hedge or behind a parked van. I found out later that it was 30, but I never received a summons anyway. Ironically, I do try to be diligent about obeying speed limits.

Speed limit signposting is now chaotic, depending it seems of someone's whims, with for example full-sized zone entry signs being used for repeaters - suggesting that when you see one in the distance ahead that you are not yet within the zone, so you could speed up!

 

[Woodentop]

To go off at a slight tangent, yellow lines is another area of considerable sloppiness.

New traffic lights have just been erected at the top of our road - theoretically to handle increased traffic flow from a new estate. All around the junction double yellows have been put down, but unless you are in a parking zone then the lines have no meaning unless there is signage to show when they apply and there is no signage whatsoever.

Despite what it says in the Highway Code, double yellow does not mean no parking at any time: it means - in its full older glory - 'no waiting except for loading or unloading for longer than the working day.' The working day therefore has to be defined.

Although it is now changed there used to be double yellows around Bradford Cathedral that applied 07:00-19:00 Monday to Saturday - see what I mean?

Just to add insult to injury at said traffic lights three out of the four pairs of heads are not upright, when they first went active two out of eight were obstructed by tree growth (which has since been fixed,) three heads are in part obstructed by road signs from various different angles - and so it goes on. Despite multiple complaints to the County Council the only thing they have done (or maybe had the builder's contractor do as it is part of the conditions of Planning Permission) is to cut the tree overhang (as already noted) and have four new LED street lights erected around the junction to improve night time brightness levels.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Been driving around Bristol this afternoon looking for sheep (don't ask). Virtually the whole of north Bristol has a 20 mph speed limit on the side roads.

 

[Gafferbill]

Graham .......I am saying nothing hmy:

 

[Gagakev]

Thought there were more sheep in Wales :lol:

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Thought there were more sheep in Wales :lol:

These were in Bristol, see here

Edit - that's what comes of saying I'd take the wife anywhere for our 35th wedding anniversary. hmy:

 

[Mel]

Looks like Bristol knows how to attract the Welsh.
Mel

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Looks like Bristol knows how to attract the Welsh.
Mel

Good job I'm not Welsh.

 

[Sproket]

Graham .......I am saying nothing hmy:

Neither am I