truma blown air heater

Jan 7, 2008
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Hi everyone,

Can someone help me as this problem is challenging me and as my van is relatively new i am sure i must be doing something wrong as opposed to having a fault.These heaters run off gas and electric and at night when were all bunked up I want to circulate some warm air to keep the cosy toes feel.I have a switch on the wall which allows me to select 500w/1000w/2000w and a heat setting. I then switch on the electric switch on the unit which has an "A" as one setting and then somthing that i think refers to blown air so i select that and turn the flow dial up and can hear and feel the air through the floor vents but irrespective of setting and wattage it never gets warm,it is always just blown air,am I missing something blatantly obvious?

Thanks

Andy
 
May 2, 2006
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Hi Andrew,

Ahhh, you have discovered the disappointment of blown air heating. Unless the original power source is very hot, by the time it has been blown through the tubes it is not very impressive. As you say, the heater can run on gas or electric - the gas is much hotter (and I believe more calorifically efficient) than the electric. If you want to use the blown air heating you are much better off on the gas supply.

Its one of the reasons I could never understand the brief fad a few years ago of some vans having "awning warming outlets" in the side of the van to use the blown air to heat the awning.

Cheers

Mike A
 
May 2, 2006
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Sorry Andrew, I meant to have added that I would not personally leave a gas fire on overnight for a couple of deadly reasons. In my experience, if you want to trickle heat into the van overnight forget the blown air and just leave the electric heater on a suitable setting.

Cheers

Mike A
 

Damian

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Mar 14, 2005
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Quote " I meant to have added that I would not personally leave a gas fire on overnight for a couple of deadly reasons. "

There are no reasons whatsoever to not use the gas heater at night if the heater has been properly maintained and serviced when required.

They are totally room sealed units both drawing combustion air from outside and exhausting combustion products directly into the air outside.

The electric heating is secondary heating, the heater was designed to work on gas as the primary fuel, but with the demand from customers, the electric heater was added.

To be as efficient as it can be the van has to be thoroughly warm to start with, not just the central areas but the whole fabric of the van.

Once that is achieved electric can take over to maintain the heat but the fan must not be set to run very fast at all, or it will simply be too fast an air flow which keeps the elements cold.
 

SBS

Mar 15, 2007
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We have a 2002 Eccles Onyx. The electric heating works very well (except when the voltage drops on a particular site we use). We have a remote thermostat fixed to the gas thermostat and the heater will switch itself on or off and maintain an even temperature.

Any blown air ducting outside the 'van should be insulated (black covered) but long runs may benefit from extra insulation.

We leave it on 2kw (the other settings are for low amperage sites) and set the temperature to around 20 degrees and the fan on 'Auto' at 2 to 3. At bedtime we turn it down to 15 degrees and the fan down to minimum - it's virtually silent.

Works for us.

Finally, provided that the heater is properly maintained, there should be no problem using it on gas as it is a room sealed unit.

Mike
 
May 2, 2006
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Hi Damian and Mike,

You are probably quite right with your assertion that it is safe to use the fire on gas overnight. We all have our prejudices, often based on personal history that is not really relevant, and it just so happens that I come from that generation when flames were much more prevalent in the home - and the house fires were too. I can remember my mum hammering it in to me as a kid to never leave a flame burning when I went to bed and I can't shake the thought off even if it is a sealed unit.

Incidentally the bit about "if the heater has been properly maintained and serviced when required." is always a bit of an act of faith for those of us who put our trust in service technicians. I say that because bits of our fire keep turning up on the caravan floor when we arrive on site after a journey. We reported the problem to our dealer and gave them a bag of small bits and they fixed the fire back on. Next journey, a similar problem, together with the fire front half hanging off. So back to the dealers for another fix. Guess what happened the next journey? Anyway I investigated myself and identified that they had squashed some of the fixing clips. We then had occasion in April this year to start using another dealer, that I and friends rate very highly. We asked them to check the fire and ensure it is fixed on firmly. They reported they had done. We went to North Wales for Easter, and yes when we got there the fire front is hanging off. I haven't done anything about it as it is now warmer weather, but it does not fill me with confidence that they know how to deal with the fire properly.

Cheers

Mike A
 

Damian

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Mar 14, 2005
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Mike, I can fully understand your point of view and accept that not everyone is happy to leave a gas fire on all night, let alone the cost of gas!.

As for the fire front, it is, as you well know, only held in place by spring clips which during movement of th evan during towing can allow the front to disengage itself.

There is however a very simple cure, which some makers, Swift for example on the GTS Vogue range when they made them, is to fit a screw in between the top two fire grilles securing the front to the item the fire is attached to, such as the wardrobe.
 
Feb 28, 2009
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Mike,

I have fitted 2 screws as Damian has suggested to my last 3 vans and this has cured all the probs.

Swift do appear to be fitting screws to their range of vans now.

Just another example of C**p design in the first place.

Jim
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Mike,

You seem to have some miss-conceptions concerning blown air gas/electric heating in caravans. You are correct when you say that the heat source needs to be hot to negate the heat loss along long lengths of ducting, and as most caravans are now fitted with a 3.6kW gas heater, the gas is going to be quicker in raising the temperature in a caravan than just the 2kW electric element.

But what is often overlooked is that gas control incorporates a thermostat and unless the gas control is set max, the heat output from the gas system will reduce as the temperature in the caravan rises. - so over a half an hour of so the average heat input into a caravan may be less than 2kWh - in which case the electric element would eventually raise the necessary room temperature.

You actually say the gas is "hotter". This is not necessarily true. If you were to measure the surface temperature of the electric elements when they are running and up to temperature you will find they are hotter than the surface temperature of the gas fires heat exchanger. What you should have said is the gas heater provides more heat than the electric elements. This is true because the surface area of the gas system is greater than the surface area of the electric elements.

You also say you believe the gas is more "calorifically efficient" than the electric elements. This depends on how you consider the comparison.

If you are comparing the amount of heat you get in the caravan against the amount of energy you use, then the electric element wins, because it is 100% efficient at converting electrical power to heat, and as there is no chimney required, none of the heat is lost - it all enters the caravan. As for the gas system, it is only about 75% efficient, mainly due to the heat needed to drive the flue gasses which is lost through the flue. The older 1800 series heaters are much better at about 92 to 98% as the flue is virtually balanced under the floor and so it uses less heat to drive flue products These ran in condensing mode but were limited in the maximum heat they could handle in the under floor configuration.

The efficiency calculation is different if you are making the comparison between the burning of the fuel at the power station and gas heater, Now the situation changes. The best conversion of fuel to electricity in a power station and with transmission losses is about 40% - so the gas fires 75% is better on this comparison.

The situation is even worse if you are using a small portable generator, as these do not generally exceed 8 to 10% efficiency of fuel to electric power.

Damian has already challenged you about the safety aspect of using a gas fire overnight, I would add to that comment though, if you are happy enough to use a gas heater during the day, then what changes to make it more dangerous at night? - in the case of a room sealed heater - nothing.

It is of course a personal choice whether to use the heater at night or not - but please be assured that there is no technical reason not too.

With regard to the fire fronts dislocating during towing, I know from both Carver and Truma that have done considerable design and testing to out find out if the front case do dislodge under normal and some extreme conditions. The products are pretty resistant to it, but the other side of the coin is the panel must be removable for inspection and testing without too much difficulty.

Historically where the problem did occur it was either the clips had been bent or broken, or the caravans cut-out for the heaters installation box was too wide by between 5 to 15mm and The heaters installation box had to be splayed a little to allow it to be screwed to the furniture but this meant the clips were too far apart to engage the front cover properly. This is caravan manufactures problem not necessarily the heater manufactures problem.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Sounds like treating the symptom instead of the cause? I'd get the wheels balanced first and or check the tyre pressures.

Fires mounted behind the axle can suffer more and the Truma fronts clips can get bent into the wrong position, either of these can cause the front to jump off perhaps but otherwise they should be more than good enough to do the job.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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JohnL, you don't happen to know the design working surface temperature of the Carver/Truma elements do you?

I'd guess it's high 600's C

At this high temperature the elements are very efficient and as their only reheating air in the van, rather than as the gas does continually starting from scratch heating outside air, I don't then understand the notion they need time to heat up before using the fan??
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Gary,

Sorry I don't know the exact working surface temperature of the electric elements, This will of course depend on the surface area and the power input, ambient temperature and air flow conditions around the elements. but I tend to agree with your guestimate. Under very dark conditions, some say they can see the elements just beginning to glow very dull red, which I believe puts the temp at about 650C. As the elements are use basically the same materials as the elements in electric grills, the elements are in no danger of loosing structural integrity.

Pure Aluminium melts at 660C and many Aluminium alloys become 'plastic' at 450C so the surface temperature of the gas heat exchangers has to be significantly below that probably peaking at about 350C. This is usually on the walls of the vertical chimney directly above the flame, and becomes progressively cooler as it passes around the heat exchanger towards the exhaust port.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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It's a question I was asked by a potential manufacturer of new elements and I must say it through me, I thought diameter/length/wattage would determine temperature. Given a sample then it should have answered all the questions! but perhaps he was just being cautious?

250c is the max I've measured on heat exchangers BTW
 
Mar 14, 2005
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It's a question I was asked by a potential manufacturer of new elements and I must say it through me, I thought diameter/length/wattage would determine temperature. Given a sample then it should have answered all the questions! but perhaps he was just being cautious?

250c is the max I've measured on heat exchangers BTW
Hello Gary,

Element design is said to be a bit of a black art by the manufacturers, but fundamentally length x diameter gives area, and the other factor you mention is of course Wattage. These factors must influence the surface temperature, but so does the electrical insulation that separated the heating element from the sheath, and the surface material and finish.

At low wattages the majority of the heat is lost via convection, but as the wattage (and temperature) increases the thermal capacity of the air to convect drops in proportion to the amount of heat radiated away.

The elements in both the Carver and Truma heaters are predominantly cooled by convected or fan assisted air flow. excessive radiated heat could start to do damage to other parts of the heater or the caravans surrounding support structures.
 
Jan 7, 2008
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Thanks everyone,

it appears it is one of those add ons better not added!!

I didnt realise you could put the gas fire on and circulate as blown air I thought that was reserved only for the electric aspect of the heater so as it is checked every year we may give that a go or import a small electric heater for rear bedroom of van

thanks

andy
 
Feb 21, 2009
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Andrew,

Just a quick check - Whn you say it never gets warm, irrespective of the power setting - have you actually turned the heater on? On the dial that you use to select the power setting, there may be a second (outer)ring that actually turns the electrical heater element on and off (there is on my Bailey Pageant S7). The controls on the actual heater (where you control the fan) do not turn the heater element on and off, just the gas fire and fan.

This is our first van, and it took me a while to work out why i wasn't getting warm air whilst on electric.

We leave the heater on 1KW, and the fan on minimum overnight (after having warmed the van up 1st), and it is sufficient to keep the chill out for all 4 of us...

Vince.
 
Jun 17, 2011
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Some interesting points here:

Is the fan switched to A, Auto. If so it shouldn't run fast until the heat exchanger is warm. The fan speed varies according to need. Might have a dicky switch or the control board might be faulty.

The units are sealed and can be used safely if properly maintained. You should have a carbon monoxide alarm with you. We found our brand new grill was churning it out CO- might have killed me cooking toast if we had not had the alarm.

Fixing screws. The front should not have a screw- the springs hold it on. That is if the heater is fitted properly. My manufacturer eventually paid Truma to refit ours after we had got through three fronts and it fell off every tow. Not fallen off since the guys at Truma had it.

This is how I use my fan system. If outside is 5 or above put it on 2000 watts and let it heat up. then put fan on 4 on A. If temp is less than 5 use gas to get it hot. If less than -5 use both. A word of warning for non hook up- the fan uses plenty of amps so use the heater without the fan.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Gary,

Element design is said to be a bit of a black art by the manufacturers, but fundamentally length x diameter gives area, and the other factor you mention is of course Wattage. These factors must influence the surface temperature, but so does the electrical insulation that separated the heating element from the sheath, and the surface material and finish.

At low wattages the majority of the heat is lost via convection, but as the wattage (and temperature) increases the thermal capacity of the air to convect drops in proportion to the amount of heat radiated away.

The elements in both the Carver and Truma heaters are predominantly cooled by convected or fan assisted air flow. excessive radiated heat could start to do damage to other parts of the heater or the caravans surrounding support structures.
Ah, what you describe is the same problem you get with a powder coat track oven; speed of track, distance of heat source from job, amount of heat, wall thickness of job, etc

Now setting that lot up right is a black art!!
 
Jul 23, 2008
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Good Morning Andrew,

I am from Truma UK. For full advice and details of the operation of our products, please either visit www.trumauk.com or contact our service department on 01283 586020 or email technical@trumauk.com.

In my experience the best way of reaching the best performance from blown air heating is to allow the element to heat up for 10-15mins to ensure a good source of heat and then set the fan to around 3/4. This allows for a constant draw off the heater whilst allowing it to reheat (replace the heat being distributed)....therefore preventing just drawing and distributing cold air.

I hope that this helps. If you are in any further doubt or require further explanation, please contact us on the details above.

Kind Regards,

Truma UK

visit www.trumauk.com
 
Jul 25, 2007
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Would have been more impressed if they had commented on the Gas Regulator issue. It is a disgrace that Truma expect the consumer to pay because their regulator can not cope with the very gas bottles it is meant to have been designed to be used with. Truma honour your guarantees!
 
Oct 18, 2008
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Hi! just been reading about the problems with heaters and only cold air comoing out. I have a similar problem with a new van but only in the washroom. The pipe to this from the fire goes under the van outside, it is black so I think it is the insulated one, however, it is losing so much heat so as to make it useless. Inside the van everything is ok. Any ideas on adding more insulation underneath.

Alan B.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Alan, buy a cheap foil covered foam bed mat as used for camping, cut into long strips about 70mm wide and spiral wind the strips around the duct, secure with gaffer tape.

Not my idea but told it works very well.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello William,

Your posting in this thread regarding the regulators has been dealt with quite extensively elsewhere in this forum.

Truma did origionally replace a number of the regulators free of charge, until they established that the problem was not of Truma's making but to do with other manufacturers products installed on the caravans, and that the physical arrangement of the components was compromising the regulators.

This is not Truma's problem, so they are not obliged to replace regulators that suffer this blockage damage.

If you have a gas system that is demonstrating the blockage symptoms, then as your dealer sold the caravan to you they are responsible, and should repair the system to replace the faulty and damaged components and to refit them in accordance with the manufacturers instructions to remove the caravan manufactures design fault.

In my view Truma have acted beyond their obligations in this matter.
 

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